posted
A year or 2 ago someone introduced me to Ender's Game. I was without a current book to read so I went out and bought it. Soon after I purchased the next 3 in the series. After a gap I bought Ender's Shadow and very soon bought the next 3, including Shadow of the Giant in Hardback.
As soon as I finished SotG I went to Amazon and purchased all 6 of the Alvin Maker Series at the same time. Currently I am near the end of the 5th. About an hour or 2 ago I was reading and came to the part where John Adams arrives and has a conversation with Study about his political/religious beliefs vs Thomas Jeffersons'.
I couldn't help but assume Mr. Card is voicing himself through Adams who doesn't care at all for Jefferson or his ideas of separation of Church and State. I was caught off guard by this a little bit. Up until this point all historical figures written into the story seemed to fit my own understanding of them from history classes and my own personal readings. I thought that Jefferson considered Adams a close friend and spoke fondly about him the day he died not knowing Adams was dying the same day. Or was their close friendship a result of their constant conflict? I don't doubt what was written about their political beliefs though I honestly didn't know Adams was not a fan of SoC&S. I always thought Jefferson was one of our better founding fathers, though I knew he was not that great of a politician. But this is something I haven't really researched too much so I don't have any right to disagree.
Also does Adams truly represent Mr. Card's own political beliefs? At least as far as Mr. Card has let his beliefs be known?
Oh, and lastly a comment on the relationships between Alvin & Peggy, and Bean & Petra. I believe Mr. Card commented about this somewhere on the site, but why does it seem these two women practically throw themselves at the primary heroes of the 2 series. First Petra tells Bean straight up she is going to marry him and have many of his babies, then there is Peggy who plans to make herself available to Alvin almost from the day of his birth.
I know not every romance should be as fiery as Han and Leia's, but it sure helps to make the romance a lot more interesting and powerful. I also find my opinion of these two character lowered due to their lack of... spunk. Course the argument could be made that this is a more realistic example of courtship or at least a more sensible one since both people know they love each other. Or in Peggy's case you could say we only know she planned to marry Alvin from day 1 because we knew her mind and that even Princess Leia might have been as sure of her future if we knew her thoughts.
But what I really want to know is if anyone else felt the same way about the two relationships, and if not, why?
Posts: 3 | Registered: Dec 2005
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And I'd be one of the ones who disagrees with you about the level of "spunkiness" in Petra or Peggy; I don't think that Card uses his fiction to make political statements through his characters. I found the banter and tension between Alvin and Peggy and Petra and Bean to be far more interesting than that of Han Solo and Leia. To each their own.
Edit: Crud, the relevant part of that thread is about three fourths of the way down the page. OSC answers your very question.
Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I could be mistaken on this, but I seem to recall from history class that Adams and Jefferson did not agree on much and didn't get along, but that Jefferson, on his death bed, did say something nice about Adams (and yes, Adams did die the same day).
As to Peggy and Petra, I think they're both full of spunk. Spunk and the desire to bear children are not mutually exclusive. And if you recall, Peggy spends most of "Prentice Alvin" NOT wanting to marry Alvin. Both couples have their tiffs, and neither wife becomes an emotional slave to their husband. I think it's great that there are some literary heroines out there that want to be wives and mothers.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
*grin* I know, Tom. By the way, have you gone back to the Shadow series yet to reassess Theresa's motives in that one "preachy" scene? I'd be curious if your take on it changes or not and why.
Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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David McCullough's bio of John Adams has much on the Adams-Jefferson relationship. They were great friends in the 1770s-1780s. Then they had a falling out for ~20 years (starting with Washington's presidency, or Adams's, I'm forgetting which) when they became political rivals. (The 1796 election race? Woo, nasty. If you think modern-day elections are bad, read about some of the early ones. Yow.) Anyway, somewhere around, what, 1810 or so he and Jefferson started corresponding again and renewed their friendship and kept it through the end of their life (both dieing July 4, 1826).
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I appreciate the answers on my Jefferson/Adams Question and question about how much Mr. Card uses his novels to express his on beliefs and opinions. I was trying hard not to come off as accusing but as merely curious.
I also regret using the word "spunk" or referencing Star Wars in my thoughts and questions about the relationships between Bean & Petra and Alvin & Peggy. This kind of made for an easy counter to my opinions. I still think the relationships are a little lopsided and that the bonds between the 2 couples seems weaker because of it. However I prefer conflict over "getting along" 9 times out of 10 so it may just be the cynic in me.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I think in the case of Bean and Petra, at least, the only realistic way for the relationship to work is as written. Bean never would have pursued a relationship, and aggressive pursuit of goals is tested for in Battle Schoolers, so it would of course be part of Petra's makeup (in case you couldn't tell). It's been a while since I've read Alvin Maker, so I can't say if that relationship was the same. But for Bean and Petra, if she hadn't thrown herself at him, it never would have happened.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hmm, I think it's a little bit of suspended disbelief in Petra/Bean's case as well. We kind of assume they've *sorta* been getting to know eachother all this time, and have been secretly in love and Petra was simply first to pursue it... In any case, I doubt it's intended to be a case example of a normal courtship... ^_^
But... I found Peter's sudden *SotG SPOILER WARNING!!!*
... love of Petra to be *quite* unexplained... Again, must we assume he has worshipped her from afar (which we were never even given a *hint* of) and finally took his chance when Bean was gone.
Then again, maybe he simply fell in love with Petra's kids, and then fell for her by default?
I'd certainly like to hear Mr. Card's explanation of this particular relationship, as it is a bit blurry to me.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
OSC's stance is that he doesn't use his characters to parrot his thoughts, and how could he when he has to write everyone's viewpoints?
I think that's oversimplifying it a bit, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some of the views espoused by his characters' are his own. It just stands to reason. But which ones? That is the thing that only he knows.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
So how can you tell when a character is preaching for something Card himself thinks, and when are they just being themselves? Is it simply a matter of whether you happen to disagree with him?
Also, politicians are weird. Like Orrin Hatch agrees with Ted Kennedy on very little, but has taken to speaking very warmly of him. He respects him as a colleague or something.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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pooka, what's helpful to understand is that (most of) the fury is for the cameras. The base wants sound and fury, so they get it. But, off-camera, outside the chambers, the best politicians remember to stop and share a drink with the guy on the other side of the aisle. It's been the collapse of that that's made politics so messy lately.
Also, Hatch and Kennedy have been around FOREVER. 30+ years of service for each.
You can't serve together that long, even during the bloodbaths, and not gain some affection for the other guy.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Dec 2005
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