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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Upset about disturbing reviews....

   
Author Topic: Upset about disturbing reviews....
EnzoF
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Hello all. I just finished "Ender's Game" and felt compelled to begin my "journey" through this universe created by Mr. Card. Compelled not only because it's an excellent book, but because of the fact that he has mapped out a full universe of characters and ideas. I kind of wish Dan Simmons did the same with his Hyperion series...but I digress. Bottom line: I'm a FAN of the Ender Series and I've apparently just scratched the surface. Normally I don't read too much into reviews before reading a book however my curiosity got the better of me and I went to www.goodreads.com. Boy was I in for a surprise. I simply cannot believe that there are people out there that consider parts of Enders Game to be of a pornographic nature, more specifically, of a child-porn nature. I found nothing of the sort in this book. After reading the last page I decided it is nothing more than trolling. It's disgusting to say the least and if Mr. Card was a paedophile (spell check!) in any way shape or form it ( and he ) would have been exposed YEARS ago.
My question will never be answered which is this: Why are there always those out there who will look for the most perverse and juvenile things they *think* they see and then mouth off about it unchallenged? Instead of marveling at the sheer scope of the story itself they (trolls) will point out something like boys fighting in a shower and proclaim it to be of a sexual nature. THIS is why humans are the way we are. We are doomed, people.
Bottom line: Enders Game is an EXCELLENT Science Fiction novel that deserves every single accolade past, present, and future. I love this book so much I'm tempted to keep it and let the library bill me for it. No, I plan to buy a copy and continue to the next book, and the next, and the next...
Thank You, Mr. Card.
Happy Holidays to you and yours.
~Enzo.

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Scott R
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The guy who introduced me to Ender's Game mentioned that Bonzo attacked Ender in the showers specifically to rape him.

That kept me away from the book for a long time; after reading the Alvin Maker series and Lost Boys, I took the plunge and read Ender's Game.

Yeah, that guy was totally mistaken. I have to wonder how he got that impression.

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rivka
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I love Goodreads. But yes, there are people there who hate EG.

There are also people there who bad-mouth the bible, love Dan Brown, love Twilight, etc.

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Stephan
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I've often assumed when people read into such things that is is they who have some sort of problem with their sexual well being.

As I have said before, my biggest issue is that people place sex as worst then violence in popular culture. Shows like 24 (which I did enjoy) can show utterly brutal torture and violence on prime time network television, but a single bare breast at a Super Bowl causes the whole country to freak out.

If those reviewers were complaining about the violence in Ender's Game, I could at least understand their points (even if I disagree with it).

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ChemicalWedding
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
I love Goodreads. But yes, there are people there who hate EG.

There are also people there who bad-mouth the bible, love Dan Brown, love Twilight, etc.

I'm offended by the Dan Brown comment. I'm surprised an OSC fan dislikes Dan Brown.
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rivka
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You created an account just to express your love of that hack?

Ok . . .

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ChemicalWedding
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I created this account before you posted that. That was just my first comment because I haven't finished the Shadow series and I don't want to post on here too often in case I catch Shadow spoilers. I already know an important person dies from accidentally reading on here. [Razz]

But thanks for jumping to conclusions! I feel so welcomed!

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by ChemicalWedding:
[I'm offended by the Dan Brown comment.

Why is that?

quote:
I'm surprised an OSC fan dislikes Dan Brown.
Why is that? I think that you'll find quite a number of people who like or love Card's work who despise Dan Brown's.
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ChemicalWedding
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quote:
Why is that?
I'm a huge Dan Brown fan and I don't like seeing Dan Brown lovers compared to Twilight lovers.

quote:
Why is that? I think that you'll find quite a number of people who like or love Card's work who despise Dan Brown's.
This I know is an unreasonable assumption but it's kind of like the bands Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. I just assume if you like Iron Maiden you like Judas Priest because I can spot so many similarities in their work. I don't know. I find them very similar, the plotlines they come up with, the issues they raise.

I shouldn't assume like that, but I do. [Wink]

[Edit] Oh and Merry Christmas everyone! [Smile]

[ December 25, 2010, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: ChemicalWedding ]

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DarkWyndre
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Dan Brown writes the same book over and over with the same kind of barely believable nonsense each time. He actually tried to claim that the DaVinci Code was based upon truths (just read the front of the book) which had been disproven soundly as a hoax long before he started to write.

He's an average at best hack who intentionally misled gullible people to further a laughable agenda.

Mr. Card and Mr. Brown are not even in the same galaxy as each other when it comes to what they write.

Add me as another Card fan who despises Mr. Brown's work.

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ChemicalWedding
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkWyndre:
Dan Brown writes the same book over and over with the same kind of barely believable nonsense each time. He actually tried to claim that the DaVinci Code was based upon truths (just read the front of the book) which had been disproven soundly as a hoax long before he started to write.

He's an average at best hack who intentionally misled gullible people to further a laughable agenda.

Mr. Card and Mr. Brown are not even in the same galaxy as each other when it comes to what they write.

Add me as another Card fan who despises Mr. Brown's work.

Ah, well it was a pretty false assumption.

I don't care about Dan Brown as a person, but as an author, his books are quite thrilling. The Da Vinci Code and The Lost Symbol are a little repetitive, but Angels & Demons was a masterpiece in my eyes. One of the characters almost overtook Atticus Finch (the coveted number one spot) on my list of favourite book characters, but then it turned out he was the culprit and went crazy and set himself on fire. He has since dropped out of my top 10.

I've never met anyone who became a "Dan Brown believer," as in someone that actually BELIEVES what he wrote. And I've seen interviews where he makes it clear that his books are fiction.

I will say his first book, Digital Fortress, sucked like a mofo.

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Synesthesia
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I don't know. When I first read the Ender Series I loved it. I am not seeing that whole child porn thing though. The violence bothers me more than Ender not wearing clothes in a shower which is usually what people do when they are in the show.

I think that the Bean series bought the Ender series down, and having read it several times, a lot of times in fact, the books after Ender got kind of... worse.
but that is my issue and not anyone else's.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ChemicalWedding:
But thanks for jumping to conclusions! I feel so welcomed!

You would have preferred the traditional welcome? Ok.

Welcome to Hatrack. You're wrong!

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by ChemicalWedding:
But thanks for jumping to conclusions! I feel so welcomed!

You would have preferred the traditional welcome? Ok.

Welcome to Hatrack. You're wrong!

Hahahaha! Its funny because it's true.

As far as Dan Brown is concerned, I felt that Angels and Demons was his only real book that he wrote. The Davinci Code and The Lost Symbol just had a Hollywood feel to it, almost as if he were writing them for the specific reason of getting a film deal.

Angels and Demons was fairly entertaining, but I've read better books.

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ChemicalWedding
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by ChemicalWedding:
But thanks for jumping to conclusions! I feel so welcomed!

You would have preferred the traditional welcome? Ok.

Welcome to Hatrack. You're wrong!

Thank you! [Big Grin]
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Chris Bridges
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Already posted my dislike of Brown's writing. At every step he tells me what happened instead of showing me, making the entire thing seem less like an exciting book and more like I was reading someone's account of having read an exciting book.

Personally I wonder how many of Card's detractors formed their opinions after he was branded a homophobe. There is no pedophilia in his books, nor any hint of any, and even when his underage characters do brush up against any sort of sexual situation they generally move away from it quickly.

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Brayden
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I find that OSC likes to leave majority of the fine details to the imagination of the reader. Personally I find it to be a reat addition to the story because it allows for a much stronger mental image; however in scenes like the shower and the scene with Virlomi in Shadow of the Giant, one's imagination can get carried away. When I read the chapter where Bonzo courners Ender in the shower, I saw nothing pornographic about it mearly because I was imagining large steam clouds mostly hiding the two from Bonzo's little posse. Honestly those who find that scene pornographic obviously either have issues with their own sexuality that they are struggling with be it homosexuallity, sexual addiction, or even the complete fear of sexuallity at all, or they have somehow managed to shelter themselves very well in this world of ever decaying morality.
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Brayden
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Also, I read like the first two chapters of The DaVinci Code, and I really was unable to find any sort of interest in the story... Sorry Dan Brown, but you just don't cut it... [Dont Know]
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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
Personally I wonder how many of Card's detractors formed their opinions after he was branded a homophobe. There is no pedophilia in his books, nor any hint of any, and even when his underage characters do brush up against any sort of sexual situation they generally move away from it quickly.

This. I've read EG several times since it first came out in 1985 when I was 17. When I first heard these accusations of pedophilia in the book, I had absolutely no idea what part of the book these people might be talking about. It was always clear to me that Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that's where he'd be most vulnerable.

And even if there were scenes of pedophelia, it's a false equivalency to take that to mean OSC would himself be a pedophile. Is every author equal to every scene he writes?

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Dogbreath
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If you all want to read something by OSC that actually is about pedophilia, check out "Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory". But I'll warn you it's probably the most disturbing thing he's ever written.

The only level I can see Dan Brown and OSC being remotely comparable is on the very surface. They both write books with simple language that are very easy to get into.

That's where the similarity ends, though. Dan Brown's work is purely sensational, and only has value in that it entertains you while you're reading it. OSC's books leave a lasting impression.

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scifibum
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I thought Angels and Demons was terrible. To be fair, though, I gave up as soon as the Mach 35 jet reached Scientist Disneyland. I had heard it didn't get better.
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DDDaysh
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I too was shocked that people found the shower scene (and a few other "nudist" scenes) to be pedophilia. It's hardly descriptive of genitalia (baring the animated sort), so unless you're someone who has a vivid imagination that routinely thinks of nude groupings of mostly pre-pubescent boys as sexual, it's hard to figure out how they get there. Do they also think that bathtub pictures of babies are porn? Probably so...

I hate when people do things like that though, because it totally dilutes the seriousness of true pedophilia. How do you differentiate a truly abusive thing, when totally non-descriptive mentions of child nudity in piece of non-sexual fiction is given that label?

Besides, if you want to tear apart Card's writing for kiddie sexuality, there are much more potent descriptions elsewhere! Song Master and Hart's Hope spring to mind, but it's probably in other places too. The only time I remember it being treated as something desirable was in "The Call of Earth" with Luet. I remember being a little sickened by him describing her so sexually, but in the context of the story it made sense.

As far as Dan Brown goes, I actually liked "The Da Vinci Code". I found it quite exciting and entertaining - but I could never put it in the same category as most of Card's books. It didn't even inspire me enough to get me to go buy any more of his books. Maybe I will some day, but it didn't give me that kind of feeling.

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Orson Scott Card
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Hey, I hope readers of EVERY other writer also like my books. Just because I don't get into Brown's stories doesn't mean that I can say no one else should like them, or that there's something wrong with them if they do.

As for the crazy attacks on me and my work: It's the way political correctness works these days. If you disagree with someone's beliefs, you use the very toolset of intolerance that political correctness is supposed to oppose: Name-calling, lies, stereotyping, etc. ANY opposition to ANY part of the PC platform means you're completely evil, such a monster that all methods of attack are encouraged.

These are the same people who in different eras would be burning witches or heretics. Fanaticism acts the same in all its ideological costumes.

But these attacks are also a confession of the vacuity of their own beliefs. They know they cannot be justified by well-supported arguments, so their only hope is to intimidate the opposition into silence. Think: Taliban. Communist Party. English Puritans. Think "I'm so right that I'm going to destroy the evil wrong people before they can influence anybody else to be wrong."

If they didn't attack me, I'd worry that I wasn't telling the truth enough.

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Scott R
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Interestingly, the guy I talked about above was a fan of Ender's Game, and most of your work.

:shrug:

Sometimes your fans are crazy, Uncle Orson.

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Orson Scott Card
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I was referring to the systematic program of accusations and attacks, not to the person you referred to.
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Scott R
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Yeah, those people are crazy too.
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Fremen
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"If they didn't attack me, I'd worry that I wasn't telling the truth enough."

I actually find that notion kind of funny, but can see the sense in it. A lot of times, people use PC as a way to avoid things like sexuality (or the presence of such in certain situations).

Honestly, there were times when I cringed in EG, like both fights Ender has and the squirrels in the forest, but in my experience, like OSC said, those things are part of life, and they belong in literature.

Also, can I just say that that first post really made me want to talk about Hyperion? Simmons is awesome, and I've only met like two people that even know of him.

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GentleGiant
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The only people who are likely to complain about an innocent and plausible scene of nudity as paedophilia are people who are actually aroused by the scene but want to deny it. I look at these people with greater suspicion than anyone who accepts it without comment.
It is good to see you posting OSC; if it is any help towards your losing weight; I always lose weight in China, the traditional cooking methods and the use of chopsticks cause me to lose weight at a steady rate of 1-2kg per week (2-5lbs)

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umberhulk
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They complain about it because whatever. I don't even remember them naked (in the fight)
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Synesthesia
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I'm not going to fight with a dude that just had a stroke (feel better, man)
But there has to be a way to disagree and still be nice about it...

Plus there is my concept that people's personal religious beliefs should not be made into laws for all because I really need my tea and I already had to give up coffee. We would not be happy if we had to give up our delicious bacon and ham.

Now I want some bacon. Mmmm. Bacon.

I think to keep things from getting to heavy in debates, i'll just distract people with cute pictures of pinnepeds because why fight when we can just admire cute seals? http://www.poptranshumanism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/3361117222_dbc74b8404.jpg

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Wingracer
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The bacon reference has distracted me. I'm off to the kitchen.
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AlphaEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
If you all want to read something by OSC that actually is about pedophilia, check out "Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory". But I'll warn you it's probably the most disturbing thing he's ever written.

Gah, nightmares...seriously, that is messed up. I kept thinking of the creatures from Dante's Inferno (the game) mixed with the baby Necromorphs from Dead Space...*shudder*. Messed up, man, messed up. That being said, that was really, really good. Your personal demons come to life.

As far as Ender's Game being filled with pedophilia...what?? I mean, the only possible reference would be like...the fact that both the guys and girls go naked in Battle School, but no one ever tries anything. To suggest the shower scene was pornographic is moronic. Bonzo attacked him there because he would be alone. In his barracks, he had his army. In the Battle Room, he had his army and the teachers watching every move, right there. In the mess, same story. Bonzo was afraid of Ender, which is why he [Bonzo] brought his gang. The only reason he fought one-on-one is because Ender shamed him into it. Make no mistake though; Bonzo was a coward, a bully. He backed down from all confrontations unless he had the numerical advantage or a size advantage (the attack on the Launchies during Ender's "training" session).

Alpha

Edit Note: Okay, I've been reading through the rest of these stories, and seriously...I feel slightly disturbed. Some of them are fantastic (I really did love the one about Joe and Alvin with the tarot cards), but the one with the letter written post-suicide, or the highway games...I dunno. Just shook me a little bit. I'm still devouring these because I will read anything OSC has ever written at least once through.

Edit Note2: All was forgiven when I read this at the end: "People who would never dream of mocking a cripple or making racial or ethnic slurs feel no qualms about poking or pinching a fat person's midriff and making obscenely personal remarks. My hatred of such people was limitless. Some of my acquaintances in those days had no notion how close they came to immediate death."

Having been overweight my whole life, I completely understand this. It's something that I could change, yes, but it would take years. In the meantime, people will continue to do these same things. It's something that I can't change immediately. On that note, what bothers me the most about racists is that they mock people who have no power to change their situation (if that's even what they desired). I'm trying, but having you people constantly mocking me and hurting me does not help me get to where I want to be. Have a little empathy.

Once again, Mr. Card, you have surprised and delighted me.

[ March 01, 2011, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: AlphaEnder ]

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Uindy
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dogbreath:

[QB]" 'Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory'. it's probably the most disturbing thing he's ever written."

I completely agree with you.

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Sean Monahan
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I bought Maps in a Mirror back in '89? '90? The first story I read out of it was Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory. It set the tone for me for the rest of the book. Each story I read after that, I was little afraid. EitFFL is one of the few things by OSC that I have never re-read.
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fieryspirit
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I don't know. When I first read the Ender Series I loved it. I am not seeing that whole child porn thing though. The violence bothers me more than Ender not wearing clothes in a shower which is usually what people do when they are in the show.

I think that the Bean series bought the Ender series down, and having read it several times, a lot of times in fact, the books after Ender got kind of... worse.
but that is my issue and not anyone else's.

Bunch if bored politically correct mentally unstable soccer moms that need to get laid.

I agree with you about the quality after the Ender Books. It's my issue too. The books after Children of the Mind got worse - Diluted in quality with every new book.

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PeterWolf10
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Huh. I never heard that one before.. paedophilia.. in Ender's Game. Racism, yes. Equally unfounded of course, but there seem to be people who exist solely to make these kind of ridiculous accusations. I've never read Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory, but after reading these posts, I don't think I will. I don't think that all of OSC's books have been getting progressively worse in quality; I've read every single book in the series (in order of publishing), from Ender's Game to First Meetings. I'm about to start Shadow of the Giant, and I read Ender in Exile (big mistake, I didn't realize how much spoilers there would be for Shadow of the Giant), and I read War of Gifts before Ender's Game. There are 2 reasons that I like the Enderverse:
1. Because of the moral and ethical dilemmas (for instance, there's an extremely short scene in Shadow Puppets where Graff and Teresa Wiggin argue about what happens when your best-laid evil plans come to nought, and there are many more like it).
2. Because of the realistic personalities of the characters. Unlike many other books, every single character is intelligent, and intelligently written (that is, not written by someone who's imagining how an intelligent person thinks). The dialogue is extremely witty. As a self-proclaimed smart guy, I realize that his assessment of gifted children is very accurate, and I applaud that. War of Gifts is an exception to both of these, but I found the Sinterklaas incident extremely interesting, despite the fact that the book has very little merit otherwise. I like that it was referenced several times in later books.


Now, in my opinion, the Shadow series, while not being quite as philosophical as the Ender series, it's more, action-oriented.. but it still has good dialogue, and a few moral dilemmas. It also gave me a chance to further explore Peter and his parents. I always felt they were neglected in the Ender Quartet (fake Peter doesn't count). Besides, I felt that Children of the Mind, and the end of Xenocide, had a few elements, like aiua, that seemed kind of.. like it didn't really fit. Inside, Outside.. but other than those elements of Xenocide/Children of the Mind, the whole Enderverse is quite wonderful. I'd say every book in the series is well worth reading.

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GentleGiant
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Eumenides in the Fourth Floor Lavatory

Is the creepiest thing I have ever read; it makes me so uncomfortable I skip it when re-reading the short story collections.

Perhaps I am too sensitive - I DID cry when ET "died", and when the Enterprise was destroyed in ST-TSFS.

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