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I laughed. I cried. I laughed and cried again. I ooo-ed and awed. I laughed again. I stayed up until 4 in the morning, on a school night, to finish it. And when I did, I closed the book, looked at the ceiling, and said: "Wow."
Seriously- amazing book. Far better than THe Sword of Shannara, and I never, EVER thought I'd say something like that. It's one of those books where you look back at how much you've read and say to yourself, "Wow, has it been 400 pages already?"
I just bought "Stone of Tears" and I'll be starting it this weekend. I'll probably have it finished by Monday.
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Is that a good book? I've not read it. And I couldn't get through The Sword of Shannara. I just couldn't!
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It took me about eight of those books to realize that they sucked. Even after Ick warned me! Maybe they're specially designed towards angsty teens?
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quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: It took me about eight of those books to realize that they sucked. Even after Ick warned me! Maybe they're specially designed towards angsty teens?
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Possibly. I still think at least the first few were good, but not the best. After a while, they got old, so I stopped reading. I got so used to his style of writing that I could predict what was coming next, so things that were meant to be surprises, weren't. Kinda boring.
Oooo, Icky! You're getting close to 10,000! And Steve! Close to 3,000! Wonder when I'll hit 1,000...
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No, I meant The Sword of Shannara. Am I the only one who thought that that sucked? I haven't read the other one.
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I haven't read the Shannara books. Jon Boy's right, I was referring to the Sword of Truth books.
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There are provocative elements in that series, if for no other reason than the way power and love are related with the being a confessor. I didn't find it nearly as provocative as G.R.R. Martin's work, but Goodkind had his moments, and they were spread throughout the series, so keep on reading.
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I have no opinion on them, and I'm sure you guys were just trying to be honest, but it just seems to me like saying something sucks is kind of a harsh way to put it. I know when someone says that something I like sucks, it hurts my little feelers, and I wish that person had expressed their opinion a little more tactfully.
Now I feel like a dork for being all negative, myself. :/
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Y'know, I've never understood all the comments about the books sucking. I haven't read the two most recent books because I'm tragically skint, and I haven't read any of the others in a few years, but I have fond memories of all the characters.
Sure, all the weird author's-first-novel type of circumlocutions so that Kahlan's secret wouldn't be revealed to the audience was annoying, and there was all the Ayn Rand influence, but...I still thought it was a pretty darn good series. *shrug*
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You will never, ever, ever, ever hear me say IRL that something "sucks"... it will piss me off to no end because that is just not a descriptive term and it tends to imply that your opinion is law. I won't really use it online either unless I'm talking about someone being sick or something. But I have a little chip on my shoulder about these books, where in the past I've defended them to no end, and now am realizing that the people (specifically Jon Boy and Icarus) who were trying to tell me otherwise, what they were saying about the books is exactly how I feel about them now. So I a) feel like a tool and b) am sorry for using that term, especially when I hate it so much myself. Caught up in the moment, was I Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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(I, for one, was not particularly offended by the use of "sucks". I just don't really understand it, is all. Then again, I'm not really offended by much, so if you were talking to me, Myr, don't worry about it. )
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I would like to point out that I was talking about The Sword of Shannara, not this other book, Wizard's First Rule.
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I thought the first book was decent, though I saw most of the major plot elements coming a mile away. After reading the second, and reading the summaries on the back of a few later ones, I realized that the hero and heroine were going to go through exactly the same kinds of traumas every book: namely, Richard was going to face losing his freedom, and Kahlan was going to be in danger of sexual assault. At that point, I put the series aside. You do that once, it's a plot element; do it more than once, you're jerking your readers about, relying on a crutch, and appealing to rather distasteful prurient interests as well.
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Another thing I don't understand is why it's such a big deal for people to have different taste in books. What is inherently offensive about disagreeing about a completely subjective experience? I liked the series, Ick and Jon Boy hated it. Cool, we can have an interesting discussion where we share our different points of view and come to understand each other better. It's all very 70's, baby.
Edit: hoo, I'm slow. This was in response to Icarus, obviously. Sterling, I noticed those elements too, but they didn't bug me.
Another Edit: Just to expand a bit, I disagree with you, Sterling, when you say that Goodkind is jerking his readers about with those elements. I think it's more likely that those are just the issues that are important to Goodkind, and so he's naturally going to come up with stories that deal with those similar archetypal elements. I see it as being kinda like how Card is interested in communities and religion and uses stories to explore both; I don't think it's really by any grand design.
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Hehehe. I'm definitely glad I read them, no regrets. I've just... stopped. At this point in my life, I'm not getting out of them what I used to. But I'm stalking this thread like crazy because I'm *very* interested to know why other people liked/didn't like or what their thoughts are in general.
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quote:Originally posted by Zotto!: Another Edit: Just to expand a bit, I disagree with you, Sterling, when you say that Goodkind is jerking his readers about with those elements. I think it's more likely that those are just the issues that are important to Goodkind, and so he's naturally going to come up with stories that deal with those similar archetypal elements. I see it as being kinda like how Card is interested in communities and religion and uses stories to explore both; I don't think it's really by any grand design.
He *might* still have interesting things to say on the subject of freedom or the loss thereof. The threats to Kahlan don't seem like they're meant to inspire thought. They seem more like a greasy Victorian rake looking at you sidelong and leering, "Ooh? Is Kahlan going to get gang-raped _this_ time?..."
If I like the characters, I don't particularly want to go in knowing what's going to happen to them. If I don't, who cares?
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Well, I found some of the magic-y stuff to be interesting, for one thing; like Irami said, there are some powerful scenes with the confessors. I liked the stuff about the veil, and that slyph thingy whose correct spelling eludes me at the moment.
I don't think the series was particularly ground-breaking, but I care much more if something is good than if it's new and never before seen. And I did appreciate how Goodkind seemed to at least try to make his stories relevant to the real world. Someone like Card, for instance, does much better at this, in my opinion, but I still liked Goodkind's work.
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I read the first three of those books. It seemed to me that there was a huge logical inconsistency in the first one, that annoyed me to no end. But it's been several years since I read it, so I can't remember the details well enough to explain it. I suppose I might have been mistaken, but it really bugged me at the time.
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Zotto!, it's just that I personally have offended people before on Hatrack by coming into a thread that they start to express their like of something and saying I don't like it. And one or two people have been really offended by it--enough to take it very personally, in fact. And I started a thread asking people what they thought of this behavior, and the reply was mixed.
If one feels that disagreeing with the aesthetic opinion of the thread originator is "crapping all over the thread," is what I'm doing now any better? Of course not. I almost can't help myself, though. Most of my opinions are strong ones, and I come here for discussion, and, like you, I myself don't think it's disrespectful to enter a thread devoted to the liking of something and say you don't like it. (Provided, of course, you don't generalize insultingly about those who see things differently from you, and say something like "Only mindless drones like Disney or live in Celebration, Florida.")
But when I hint at my true feelings about something like Terry Goodkind in a thread like this, I do it in as self-conscious and restrained a manner as I can in the hope that the people who believe this is out of line will cut me some slack in the realization that I'm trying to walk that line, and take their different opinion of what is appropriate into consideration. (Certainly Tinros doesn't seem to be offended. ) But there are one or two people around here who have expressed the opinion that I am a self-righteous prig, and they're likely to see evil in all I do regardless, and so maybe there's no point in even trying, but, then, maybe more than being about what I think is right, this is more of a "once bitten, twice shy" type of dealio. :-p
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Sterling, I don't think I've ever actually been surprised by a single book I've ever read in my entire life (well, no, that's not strictly true, but Card's Pastwatch is the only one I can think of that caught me kinda off-gaurd), so I guess I'm not really bugged when things seem fairly predictable.
I mean, story plots in general are all pretty predictable, and so if Goodkind seems to gravitate toward situations that resonate with him, I'm cool with that. I'm more into the details, the reasons behind things and character interaction.
Again, I disagree that he's going for prurient interest; I think that such situations are the ones that are most powerful to him, and so he's going to write about them and explore them. If we think he's failed in doing so in an interesting manner, that's cool, but I don't think it's some kind of gimmick, really.
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If you're a "self-righteous prig", Icarus (which I'm not in any way saying), and being one has become a crime at Hatrack while I wasn't looking, I suspect you're still a good way down a long list when the sheriff comes callin'.
quote:Sterling, I don't think I've ever actually been surprised by a single book I've ever read in my entire life (well, no, that's not true, Card's Pastwatch is the only one I can think of that caught me off-gaurd), so I guess I'm not really bugged when things seem fairly predictable.
Again, I disagree that he's going for prurient interest; I think that such situations are the ones that are most powerful to him, and so he's going to write about them and explore them. If we think he's failed in doing so in an interesting manner, that's cool, but I don't think it's some kind of gimmick, really.
It's been argued that there's only somewhere between seven and thirteen (depending on who you ask) "original" plotlines. I don't necessarily agree, but even if you accept the premise, I've still read enough authors who at least managed interesting innovations on familiar themes to make it worth the reading. Goodkind, to my mind, doesn't.
(But then, there are readers who faithfully read every book of a certain type that inevitably describes the heroine's violet or green eyes within the first two pages. To each their own... But within the genre, I'd rather look for authors who try to do something new than ones who do the same schtick repeatedly. There's a lot of material out there worthy of consideration.)
We disagree about the prurient thing; okay. But I think it's one thing to make a point within a given "world", and another to make a world that seems to exist, to an extent, to rape innocent young women. How else would you describe the teams that hunted members of Kahlan's order? To recognize that bad people do bad things is one thing; to make a world in which it's a systematic ongoing process is just ugly.
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Icky, I'm not necessarily offended, but this has ruined my enjoyment of the series a bit, especially since I just started reading the second book. It's a "I was looking forward to it, but now... I dunno." kind of feelings.
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*grin* Thanks for the ramble, Icky. I can totally see where you're coming from, and it's a perfectly respectable position.
There are things I didn't like in the series, as I said earlier, but on balance, I thought it was pretty good. I think people just have different tolerances of the level of predictability in stories; we get bored if it's too predictable, of course, and call it cliche, but it's a totally subjective line.
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DEFINATELY KEEP READING SWORD OF TRUTH. Just wait tell you get to "Faith fo the Fallen" One of the best books i have ever read.
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Tinos - I'm sure you're not. And like I said, at some point I was really, really into the books so I definitely understand why you enjoyed the first one. Though, it also took me a lot longer to get those "I don't know" feelings
edit - I am slow and someone already answered for me.
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Well, by this time, it's rare to find an author that doesn't use something that's cliche. However, there are plenty of authors who can use something generally cliche(like the hero falling for his travelling companion) and make it something all their own. Which I, personally, think Goodkind has done extremely well with, at least in the first book. I'll see what I think after I'm done with the next few.
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quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Tinos - I'm sure you're not. And like I said, at some point I was really, really into the books so I definitely understand why you enjoyed the first one. Though, it also took me a lot longer to get those "I don't know" feelings
edit - I am slow and someone already answered for me.
Well, mine have been given a bit of a nudge by the "I really, really didn't like those books" comments. I trust the opinions of the people on Hatrack, and it kind of deters me a bit to recieve quite a few negative comments on a book I highly enjoyed.
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That is one of the things I enjoyed, the relationships between the people. Not necessarily deep, but I enjoyed the banter and watching the friendships evolve.
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(Sorry, had to answer the phone, probably missing a ton of new responses...)
I still like it, Tinros. *laugh* And anyway, I don't think you should be basing your opinion on whether you like it or not on what we say; decide for yourself! *grin*
And with that, lovely Hatrackers, I must go to pick up my dad, whose truck broke down twenty minutes from here. Goodnight. Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Hehheh. My favorite part was the description of the dragon at the end of the book, dancing from foot to foot, clapping her hands, yelling, "It hatched! It hatched!" It reminds me of a little kid who just got their favorite Christmas gift. I read that part at 2 in the morning, and I had to stuff a pillow in my mouth to keep from waking my parents up- I was laughing that hard. Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Incidentally: they're a little old, but for light fantasy I'd recommend John Moressy's "A Spell For Princess", about a wizard who'd much rather stay home than go out on adventures, and Craig Shaw Gardner's "Wuntvor" series (fluff, but enjoyable.)
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Well, if they're bringing you enjoyment, then what does it matter what I think?
On the other hand, if you enjoy them, you can keep reading them, and then later on we can debate why I don't like them and you do, and that could be an interesting discussion.
And that's what I'm really after when I dissent in these threads. It's not to keep people from reading Goodkind. (Well, okay, maybe a little bit . . . ) It's looking for discussion with people who see things so differently from me. That's what Hatrack is all about, for me.
I'll let you in on a poorly kept secret: I rather like Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Most people dismiss it out of hand as garbage, and I have been forced to acknowledge some of its serious flaws, but despite all that, I still think there's a lot that's really good there. And I have come out and said so, even when some of the posts in the current thread about Jordan come off, to me, as quite a bit more judgmental than those of us here who don't like Goodkind have been. (Or maybe it's just me being sensitive, but there seems to be a strong current of "I don't get how any intelligent person could like this" in the Jordan thread.)
Anyway, my point is that eleven books later, I'm still reading everything Jordan puts out. I'm not letting other people's opinions make me stop liking something. If I come to agree with them on my own (like I share their annoyance at the Jordan books that resolved nothing), then fine. And, if not, then I just figure I see something there that they don't.
So I'm truly sorry if I ruined your enjoyment of the books. That was not my intent. I hope you decide that this was hyperbole, and that your enjoyment is rooted in the effect on you, not in my opinion.
Keep on reading, and let me know if you decide, like Myrd did, that they weren't that great after all, or if, like Zotto!, you think I'm missing the greatness that is Goodkind. 'kay?
I even like "Stone of Tears" and "Faith of the Fallen."
I'm more abivalent about the rest of the series. It felt by the fourth book or so that Goodkind was getting into an ideological rut, and one I don't necessarily agree with on all points. And the sex+violence thing is, for me, really unappetising. I can handle it when it's necessary to the plot, when it's narratively important. But it feels like Goodkind just writes it in gratuitously, and that bothers me.
Masochistic curiosity will see me to the end of the series, but I doubt I'll read anything else by him.
And I totally second Sterling's recommendation of the Kedrigern stories. They are some of the most difficult ones I've hunted, but I'm always rewarded when I stumble across one. I own the novel "The Questing of Kedrigern" and a couple of short stories, of which "A Spell for Princess" is one, I believe. LOVE them.
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