posted
Oops, wait, I'm still here, and I'm sorry Sterling, I didn't see your edit earlier.
Again, I think all those parts of the story were there to make the point that such actions are, in fact, ugly. For me, I really appreciated the anti-rape sentiment I found when I read it, because at the time I was in highschool, with people all around me who constantly used the word "rape" as an exclamation to juice up their conversation; "Ooh, you got RAPED on that last play, dude."
I thought it was utterly disgusting, and of course being awash in the hormones of high school, sexual politics were even more of an interest than they are now. So I'd argue that the point Goodkind is trying to get across is how ugly such things would be, if they did exist.
K, now I'm done. *grin*
Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Oh, heck, Icky, I'm still gonna read the books. It was just a bit... detering, if I may use the word again, to have someone tell me, "They're all pretty much the same." I don't really know how to express it.
It may be one of those series that I loved and adored the first book but hated the sequels because they were like little clones of the first book. Or, it could be a series like Harry Potter that keeps me watching the clock for the next release date. I still have my "July 16, 2005" bracelet.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: What is inherently offensive about disagreeing about a completely subjective experience?
quote: Zotto!, it's just that I personally have offended people before on Hatrack by coming into a thread that they start to express their like of something and saying I don't like it. And one or two people have been really offended by it--enough to take it very personally, in fact. And I started a thread asking people what they thought of this behavior, and the reply was mixed.
...
I am the last person on the planet to say that there's something wrong with disagreement.
However, I hope we can all realize the difference between saying something that takes the person's feelings into account ('That book isn't really to my taste','I just couldn't get into it', etc) and saying something 'sucks'. To me, unless you know the person you are talking with fairly well, just saying something sucks is going to be insulting to anyone as it implies a kind of intellectual and aesthetic lack in the person who does like whatever it is under discussion.
Also
quote: Icky, I'm not necessarily offended, but this has ruined my enjoyment of the series a bit, especially since I just started reading the second book. It's a "I was looking forward to it, but now... I dunno." kind of feelings.
this happens. I know it's true for me that when I say that I like something and it's met with disdain, it makes it harder for me to like that thing because in the back of my mind I wonder if it really doesn't suck and I catch myself having to work harder just to like it and not invent bad things. I hope that makes sense.
Some of you say that this isn't true for you, that any opinion expressed about something you like doesn't phase you, but I don't know if I beleive that, really. Who doesn't take it personally when someone says that, for instance, the clothes they are wearing suck or are terrible? Is there any difference between clothes and books? I don't think so. If anything, books are held even closer to a book lover's heart than clothes.
This isn't to say that things can't happen in the other direction, of course. I've seen many examples where a criticism phrased in a polite way is taken over sensitively. Icarus, I think, is getting some of that these days.
One more thing while I'm thinking about it. In my experience, the worse offenders, the ones who often say something sucks the most, the ones who seem to delight in 'telling it like it is', are those people who rarely put anything they like out for criticism. I find this annoying. Again, it's not anyone in this thread.
For what it's worth, I just want to say that I appreciate those people on the forum who make threads where they bring things to others' attention because they want to share their love of the subject, or care about the forum's opinion. If the forum is like a potluck dinner, there are certain people who bring little, but seem to otherwise feel free to belittle others who do take the time to bring something to the table. Again, no one in this thread. (As of this writing.) Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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*laugh* Icky, I didn't say you were missing out on any greatness. And like Eaquae, some of the icky stuff is a bit too much for me. I just seem to disagree that it's in there as some sort of gimmick to get masochists to fork over cash; it might not be the most effective way to get the point across to people like us, but I think to Goodkind it's important that ugly things are shown. Some people just have differing tolerances for the stuff.
K, NOW.
Edit: ARGH! Stormy, I want to reply to your post, but I really do have to go. *laugh* I'll be back, though, it's a good post. Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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* Full disclosure, Tinros, if I wasn't clear: I read the first two and stopped. I don't think I'm incorrect in my asessment, but I could be. Don't let me dilute your enjoyment of the series, if you decide to continue.
* The "Spell for Princess" I read was a novel. It may be he extended the original short story.
* If that's what you get out of "Sword of Truth", Zotto, more power to you. Maybe you have more faith in human nature than I do. But we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't think it's a gimmick, Zotto!. I just don't think it was necessary to describe it in such detail, or in some cases, to be there at all. I'm not going to ascribe a motive as to its inclusion, I just didn't think it needed to be included.
I have no idea, Sterling, about the novel/short story thing. I can never find any of the novels, and I've been keeping an eye out for years. Ohh! Right. I got confused. I have a SS called "A Hedge Against Alchemy," which is apparently the original story, and for some reason (I have NO idea) I got it confused with A Spell for Princess. Sorry. I still agree that they're great, though. Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Just general mixed feelings. See, I think Zotto! and I could have an interesting conversation on our wildly different takes on these books, but not without crapping all over Tinros's enthusiasm.
And your point about clothes and all is true, I think, only insofar as the criticisms come off as criticisms of you. I like a lot of things that are disdained at Hatrack, and don't care for a lot of things that people here love. I like Jordan. I think Star Wars episodes two and three are pretty good movies--especially three. I think LOTR by Tolkein was a brilliant series on the whole, because of the stories, but that, when you get up close, Tolkein is a painfully bad writer. I think the Chris Columbus Harry Potter movies are far better than the Alfonso Cuaron ones. I think the FOTR movie was borderline awful, and that TTT was the best of the series. I think the original Thomas Covenant trilogy is awful. I don't think Adam Sandler and Jim Carrey are in any way funny. I like Matchbox Twenty. I am pro-life.
I don't mind being out of step in all these things. I will get offended if somebody suggests it's because I'm stupid, or superficial, or something personal like that, but I think where we differ is where the conversation gets interesting. But not everybody sees things that way.
And then there's the fact that lately, just being myself is enough to step on toes on Hatrack. (Not in this thread, just a reflection on my general feeling.) I'm not inclined to stop being myself, so where does that leave me?
quote: Just general mixed feelings. See, I think Zotto! and I could have an interesting conversation on our wildly different takes on these books, but not without crapping all over Tinros's enthusiasm.
Come on, Icarus. I doubt Tinros would care.
The point of my post isn't that disagreement is bad, but...(how to put this?)...a blanket condemnation of something as 'bad' or awful is probably bad. In other words, I think it's not what's said so much as how it's said. Isn't this true of most things?
And in looking over this thread and thinking about it for a second, it's not just that so much as there was this string of people at the beginning who were all saying that the book(s) sucked. EVen though I'm sure no one was trying to be mean or was doing it intentionally, I kind of felt like Tinros was being ganged up on.
quote: I don't mind being out of step in all these things. I will get offended if somebody suggests it's because I'm stupid, or superficial, or something personal like that, but I think where we differ is where the conversation gets interesting. But not everybody sees things that way.
You seem to be implying that the issue is just simple disagreement, that some people are o.k. with disagreement and some aren't. I want to reiterate that I really doubt that is the case with Tinros--it's certainly not the case with me. Again, the issue to me mostly isn't what's said, but how it's said. Though of course, there are certain things that criticism of is bound to raise someone's ire no matter how it's approached. I think this is true of everyone.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I don't think we're so much disagreeing as talking about different points. (I'm feeling particularly self-absorbed tonight. Must be because it's Friday night.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I thought the whole section about Richard getting tortured was pretty decent. I didn't care for the rest of the book. I've always thought Goodkind wrote that torture part before he ever came up with the rest of the world and story.
Ironically, I think book 2 and onward are fairly decent. Once Goodkind got that "you have to have the main characters travel to every point on the map by the end of the book" out of his system, he told a pretty good story.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I still quite enjoy Wizard's First Rule and Stone of Tears, but all the angst in the rest did get a bit tedious. Not enough to make me hate them, or hate myself for reading them...it's just that all the wallowing in misery got a bit old after a while. But the world and the magical system is still at least mildly intriguing. I'll keep reading them to find out what happens, but it's not a ravening addiction like OSC or G.R.R. Martin. Posts: 952 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Phew, that was quite a trip. We took an unexpected detour on the way home and saw "Goodnight and good luck" which was decent. I fell asleep in the middle, but that was because I was exhausted, not because I wasn't into it. *grin*
Anyway, where were we?
Stormy: I completely agree with your first big post on this page, and I'm sorry if any of my posts in this thread gave anyone any reason not to think so. I, personally, was not particularly offended when all the sucking talk started, mostly because I'm not particularly offended by much. Rather, instead of feeling insulted, I have this need to try to get people to understand the good bits that I'm seeing in whatever they're poo-pooing.
Music, for instance; I've met very few people whose taste in music is at all similar to mine. They'll point out stuff they don't like about it, and I want to explain to them No, that's not the point of the piece, you're not listening to it the right way to get what I'm hearing. It's physically painful to watch a TV show I enjoy with someone who has the opposite opinion.
Sometimes I'm a little hurt by what people might think of something I love, but what I was trying to say earlier is that if you're really justified in loving it, it should stand up to scrutiny. In most cases, I find that I like it even more after I've tried thinking about it from a different perspective, and I come to understand a little more consciously the elements in it that I appreciate. In other words, we should trust our own judgement, but it doesn't mean it won't be painful sometimes. That's all.
Sterling and Eaquae: "Gimmick" wasn't a well-thought word choice, and I'm sorry for characterizing both of your objections to the books in that way.
What I was trying to say was that while you (and I, in many cases!) don't think that some of the truly nasty scenes were necessary, I don't really see any evidence that Goodkind included them just for the heck of it. I think that he thought they were important and powerful bits that needed to be there. I recieved some of them that way, at any rate. I think that the author and audience just have different thresholds of vicarious pain. *grin*
Ic: Let's see...
I have no opinion of Jordan, having never read anything by the dude. I think Star Wars episodes two and three are pretty good movies--especially three. I think LOTR was a good story, but I was in fifth grade the last time I read the books, so I couldn't tell you what I thought of the writing. I think the Alfonso Cuaron Harry Potter movies were vastly superior to the other ones. I thought RotK was the best movie of the three. Never read Thomas Covenant. I like Adam Sandler in his more dramatic movies and hate everything Carrey has done except the Mask and Eternal Sunshine. I like *some* Matchbox Twenty. I am pro-life.
So, uh, where does that put me? *grin*
And that, my friends, is the end of this post, because I feel a wee bit comatose at the moment. I guess what I'm trying to say is: I'm sorry if I offended anyone, and I'm sorry if I missed replying to something. We all agree and disagree to varying, um, degrees on this sorta junk, and it's valuable and cool to talk about it. To me, anyway. Goodnightm and goodluck.
Oh wait wait: Nell, I totally agree, there are very few addictions as potent as Card, and I'm just getting into Martin and thinking I'll enjoy him. Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Martin is quite good as far as character development. Even the "evil" chars are seen as more real and complex characters.
I liked the torture/agiel aspect of Goodkind's books, but saw many parallels throughout the series with the wheel of time series, which kind of disturbed me and made the books less potent for me.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant had a rape scene in the very beginning, and performed by the "hero" of the series. It was pretty interesting how very flawed the main character was made, yet this was supposed to make him stronger and better able to combat his foes.
I'd be interested in seeing how people rate different fantasy series, and seeing if some series I haven't heard of pop up in that list.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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i have mixed feelings about this series. I really liked them the first time I read them, and have enjoyed them since, but the writing gets to me, as does the angst. Wizard's First Rule is probly my favorite, followed by Temple of the Winds, whose plotline I always equate to a Buffy episode.
Ladies and gents, say what you want. I'm just going to be a stubborn teenager and insist on LIKING the books, no matter what you older geezers say!(no offense intended)
So debate away, people. Isn't debate the spice of Hatrack?
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Well, I guess I'm a geezer on hatrack (if over 30 makes one a geezer) and I'll say that I liked Wizard's First Rule too. I would recommend, however, that you borrow the others from the library instead of buying them because the series quickly went downhill for me and I can't say as I think any of the other books are any good. I kept reading them, because they were loaned to me by a family member and I kept thinking they'd get better, but they didn't.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Well, Belle, being a teenager, a "geezer" is pretty much anyone over 30. So I guess you count, but in that respected, loving way.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I don't know about controversy, so much as a meta-discussion on what is polite behavior. If I thought anyone currently in this thread were going to really get on my case, I would clam up.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tinros, from this old geezer who's over 50 (gasp!): I really liked the first book, a lot, and I enjoyed the ones that followed. So keep reading. It was the book with the stupid Nazi-style statue of Richard and Kahlan on the cover that totally destroyed the series for me (about the 6th one I think), I HATED that. But, like I said, I'm old. Just enjoy your reading, and don't be put off.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I really enjoyed the books...and have read the series multiple times. As many of the people here know, I am one of the admins over at Goodkind's site (though unlike OSC, he doesn't post himself...he doesn't have an Internet connection).
I actually liked many of the later books better than WFR. Faith of the Fallen was one of my favorite books of all time.
Yes, there is violence in the books, and there are disturbing scenes. Overall, his theme is on individualism, and the importance of protecting your rights. Yes, he uses hyperbole to show the dangers of a collectivist society, and to show the difficulty in fighting fanatics...but I also think he tells a great story.
If you have collectivist leanings, his books will likely piss you off. Some of his "bad guys" are very very bad and do things that will creep you out. Of course, he also has people that start out bad, change to be more sympathetic.
I hope you enjoy Stone of Tears as well. I personally really loved it. I think it is fun to watch Richard work himself out of a tough situation, and have an impact on those around him.
If you are interested in the type of philosophy that Terry has, you might read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. She is/was a major influence on Terry. Her books are a bit more dense, the story is more philosophy based than plot based, but I really enjoyed atlas shrugged.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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The thing I disliked most about Faith of the Fallen (apart from the preposterous effect of that ridiculous statue on people), was the fact that the book did absolutely nothing to advance the story of Kahlan and Richard. At its end they are in exactly the same position as they are at its beginning. The book is a political tract, nothing more.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
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But at least it was enjoyable to read. "Fallen Empire" had an impact on the larger plot, but man, was it terrible to slog through. I felt like Ayn Rand or whoever he was getting his ideas from was beating me over the head with a club. Not to mention "Pillars of Creation" which was a 600-pg setup for the next book - nothing happens!
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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ugh, Atlas Shrugged. >_< That is the only book I've ever not finished. I was able to get past my OCD with the rationalization that I had already read the same story three times--twice in Atlas Shrugged and once in The Fountainead--and so it was okay to not finish the book.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tinros, I LOVED Wizard's First Rule. When I mentioned the series on here there was a similar (but smaller) uproar, too. I think some people just don't like his politics. *shrugs*
Anyway, I've read *nearly* all the books. I haven't read the latest one or two. The only one I didn't really enjoy was Soul of Fire. I think. Faith of the Fallen was my favorite.
You go right ahead and like the books. Awesome is an apt word for the first one.
-Katarain
Edit: to correct a title.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Icky, tell me you at least got as far as the "John Galt" radio address in Atlas Shrugged. It's the best example of bad writing evar.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Well, I just got back from a mall I don't normally go to, and the Walden Books there had a "Science Fiction/Fantasy Sale"- buy three books, get the fourth free. Needless to say, I was quite pleased. I finally found "First Meetings" in paperback, and I got a couple others, including one of the "Forgotten Realms" books and the first book in the "Wheel of Time" series. Don't all gang up on me on that, now- I'm just giving it a try. Anyway, the sale has inspired my reading. Now that I have five new books to read, I shouldn't get bored for... oh, I'll give it a week. Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Cashew: The thing I disliked most about Faith of the Fallen (apart from the preposterous effect of that ridiculous statue on people), was the fact that the book did absolutely nothing to advance the story of Kahlan and Richard. At its end they are in exactly the same position as they are at its beginning. The book is a political tract, nothing more.
The statue was really just the culmination of everything. Richard had worked in that community for a while at that time. He had already made quite a change in how people felt. People were already getting restless. The reason Richard got his job was because many of the old stone carvers were executed for refusing to work...and protesting things. The statue was just his gift to them, and what it was destroyed it pushed them just a bit to far.
As for Richard and Kahlan, the main focus is not on the growth of their relationship. That is not what the series is about. It did have an effect on them individually though. It put Kahlan back in command of troops. It also helped Richard to recover from the emotional blow he received in Soul of the Fire.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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QUOTE As for Richard and Kahlan, the main focus is not on the growth of their relationship. That is not what the series is about. UNQUOTE
I wasn't referring to their relationship, but to the story they are involved in. Nothing happens to advance that. NOTHING. And as far as not liking his politics, as Katarain mentioned, I'm on the conservative side of the political spectrum and actually tend to sgree with the general run of his ideas. I just don't like being belted over the head baseball bat-style with them. It was heavy-handed, unsubtle and crude. Same with Ayn Rand - caricatures rather than characters.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Wizard's First Rule is the kind of book that makes me confused about why I can't get my own stuff published.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Dante: Wizard's First Rule is the kind of book that makes me confused about why I can't get my own stuff published.
Indeed.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Icky, tell me you at least got as far as the "John Galt" radio address in Atlas Shrugged. It's the best example of bad writing evar.
I believe that's about exactly as far as I got. (Though I could be wrong, since it's been close to fifteen years.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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