posted
Sorry to post twice in a row telling you all about my personal issues, but here I go again.
Some of you have commented to me recently that I seemed a little down. I suppose it's true that I'm returning to a "rut" state of mind now and then, and it's got me a bit down. I don't believe I'm clinically depressed or anything, just having a tough time accepting my current place in society. It sucks to desire employment and not have it, and even though stay-at-home-dadding is as or more rewarding than anything else I've ever done, I can't help but equate some value to earning income -- and I'm not earning any.
But there's another thing that's really been getting me down lately, that's a far larger drag on my state of mind than being unemployed. However, it relates somewhat to being a stay-at-home dad, because it's about Mooselet.
As some of you may remember, we had a little scare a couple weeks ago (you can read this thread for a quick recap). Anyway, that evening after Mooselet went to sleep, he woke up, and we weren't home. Mama's grandma was.
So every night since then, he's had difficulty going to sleep, and has been waking up usually multiple times during the night. He won't go to sleep unless we're in the room with him, and it still takes up to an hour-and-a-half. And when he gets up in the middle of the night, he comes into our room and wakes us up, possibly just to make sure we're still there. We're assuming that he's been worried ever since that night that we will be abandoning him, and he comes to make sure we haven't.
It's frustrating. We're trying to wean him off this behavior, but it feels hopeless at times. And to be honest, I think I could deal with losing time from a busy day/night because I need to sit with him so he can fall asleep, or losing sleep in the middle of the night, or whatever.
The problem isn't that, or at least it isn't that first. The problem is that while I'm sitting in the dark waiting for him to fall asleep, I'm angry. I'm angry at my own son. Last night while waiting with him, I started silently weeping out of frustration with my anger. Mama cried out of frustration with the situation, too. And it makes me think of Step Fletcher's anger with Deanne in Lost Boys:
quote:Step hated feeling such rage toward the person he loved most. And it wasn't the yearning love of young romance, but rather the kind of love that made her feel like part of his own self, so that he couldn't imagine a future without her beside him. To be so savagely angry at her was terrible.
He went to the sink to get a drink of water. Is this how divorce begins? he wondered. A feeling of terrible rage, of betrayal, a sudden discovery that maybe the marriage isn't as real and honest and strong as you thought it was? Then it builds up and builds up and builds up and then you find yourself living in an apartment somewhere and seeing your kids on weekends.
Mama isn't the one with whom I'm angry, so divorce isn't the issue. The thing is (as I've told many of you before and none of you apparently have seen), I have a really bad temper when it gets away from me. And I find myself thinking that if I don't figure out a way to deal with this anger, I might take it out on him. I don't think I'm gonna turn childbeater or anything, but I don't want to be inflicting emotional distress on my kid, either.
I have been told by many of you that it's obvious that I'm a good father. I so much hope you're right, but I can't let myself assume it to be true. I feel like I have to work at it day in and day out, just to stay level. At times I think I can't be a good father if I can get this upset about the actions (and fears, for heaven's sake) of my two-year-old. Sometimes I think hey I really am a good father, because of my own doubts -- doubts that a bad father wouldn't be willing to face. Either way, I'm gonna continue to work at being the best father I can be, and being what Mama and Mooselet need for me to be. Though Step's situation isn't exactly the same, the sentiment nevertheless remains:
quote:No, he said to himself. No, I forbid it. I will not let it happen, and neither will she. I'll just have to work on being the kind of husband she doesn't think she has to manipulate. Lord, help me to be whatever it is she needs me to be so we can hold this thing together. Just get us through this summer. Through this year. And then we won't need any more help, we'll be ok.
So I don't think I'm really asking for advice, though I'd listen to any. I'm not asking for consolation, though I'll probably receive it thankfully. I will ask for prayers from those who pray, though. But the major thing is just that I needed to spill my guts again, to get this off my chest. I don't have a therapist, and while I shared this with Mama last night, I don't want to add any difficulty to her life, especially in the last stages of pregnancy. She has enough to worry about. (She'll read this, though. Hi sweetie! )
So that's where I am right now. I guess I just wanted to tell the rest of my family.
posted
*misty eyed* Beautiful. The fact that you're thinking about it and making an effort to change and to not take your rage out on your son is an excellent sign and so good... This year I discovered that the more you love people, the more angry you get at them sometimes... So don't feel bad about it... Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Not that I have the slightest bit of good advice, though. I have no experience, but I'm sure you're an incredible father.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pop. I know what you are going through. I won't patronize you however, you are way too intelligent for that.
I know what a relief it is just typing that post. And you are right, just because you believe that (and, actually have proven that) you are a good father, doesn't mean that you should just rest on your laurels and assume that you are. You do need to be constantly vigilant.
It takes a good man to ask himself if he is doing right and an even better man to keep working at being better every single day. I have no worries about you, just sympathy.
I do have a little piece of advice for ya. Get out your family camera and you, Mama and all the lil mooslings take a family picture. Let Mooslet know that this picture is for HIM. It's his sign that the family is always there for him, and watching over him while he's asleep. Let him pick out a frame for it and set it beside his bed where he can see it when he goes to sleep.
Then, if you can, explain to him that it's just a reminder that Mom and Dad are always thinking about him and that one night was an emergency. Then let him know that his Grandma came to make sure he was taken care of because he is such a special boy to the whole family.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My approach has always been to read them a story then leave. I give them on or two warnings about staying in their room. I have had to spank my son who thinks the world will do something important if he is not there.
If they come into my room in the middle of the night the are welcome to sleep on the floor. and many nights I find them there, usualy by tripping over them. It seemed to work. My kids do go to bed, though they still find excuses to come and ask questions or get water. But they do not come in the room in the middle of the night, unless there sick or had a nightmare.
My approach may be a little extreme, but we tried many things to keep our kids in their beds. Unfortunantly the only thing that worked for my youngest was fear. The older two, enjoyed playing till they fell asleep.
Another question, Do you and your wife go out on dates without Mooslet? My kids look forward to having a baby-sitter, they get to stay up later.
Posts: 1244 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
If it’s any consolation, occasional feelings of resentment and even irrational anger are fairly common among primary caregivers. (I’m not sure why that would be any consolation, except maybe to let you know that this is a normal thing and not just your temper getting out of hand.)
Part of Mooselet’s problem might be anticipating the new baby. I think I remember you saying that you and Mama Squirrel have been talking with him about it and trying to get him used to the idea. He might just be starting his “not-the-only-child-anymore” neediness a little early. Unfortunately, if that’s it it will probably get worse before it gets better. But hang in there, it will get better.
Prayers and hugs and much love to you and the whole family.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I admire you a lot Pop. My prayers are with you and your lovely family. I'm glad you can share a little of your life with us.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
I'm in kind of the same place you are, Pop, partly for similar reasons (the unemployment issue) and partly for slightly different reasons (I've got a mom who depends on me rather than a son who does). This is your thread, so I won't say any more about that, but just know that I know how hard it is and that I'll be sending good thoughts your way.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Papa Moose, if it's any consolation, it's totally normal to be ticked off at your kids sometimes. When my daughter was first born, she screamed at a painful level for 3 months straight. My husband wouldn't go near her, except to yell out of frustration. He stayed at the furthest end of the house from us (he has a physical sensitivity to sound and was in extreme pain). So I was left alone with the screaming, uncuddly baby. She would not allow me to comfort her, and she always pushed away. It was very hard to love her.
One night, after a week of no sleep, I knew what it was to be evil. I was rocking my child, frustrated and exhausted. I fantasized suffocating her against my breast to make her stop screaming. I imagined throwing her against the wall or floor so that she would stop screaming. I pictured the whole thing, vividly, in my mind. The satisfying violence in my body followed by blissful silence.
And I was horrified. I did not love my baby. I did not know if I would ever love her at that point. But I made myself continue the exercise. If I could imagine murder, I could imagine its aftermath. All this time, I kept rocking. And I wept. I could not stop weeping. And I said, "I will not hurt my baby. I will not hurt my baby." Over and over. And I disassociated myself from my body. I seemed to hover over it and I let the anger seep through my pushing feet to the ground. And even though Abby did not stop screaming, I was calmer.
This is how I learned infinite patience. And how I came to understand the realities behind child abuse. And how I faced my Shadow and realized how close we all are to Darkness.
It took me at least 2 more months to learn to love my baby. But it's those little choices that we make at the pits of our souls that determine who we become.
Not sure if this story has much of a point. Just wanted to share and let you know you are not alone.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
You're a good dad cause you're determined to be one. Give your beautiful son a kiss for me, give Squirrel a hug and know that the Ralphster is all over that Moose family like white on rice.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, and the story does have a happy ending. Abby and I became close after she learned to talk. We were a very good team. Now that she's in Kindergarten, she's very independent and joyful. Many people have called her a light-bringer. I love her deeply and I know she loves and trusts me.
Papa, if you haven't already, you could try letting the Mooselet know that you will always find someone to take care of him when you can't. Because you love him so much, sometimes another person (like Grandma, who also loves him bunches) needs to take care of him for a while while you are healing or helping others. I gave Abby a locket with my picture and her Daddy's picture in it on her first day of preschool. Perhaps there is some token you can give the Mooselet. Also, ask him what's going on and listen carefully. Sometimes just being able to talk about feelings with a grownup can help.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Feeling that way is not uncommon. Don't beat up on yourself for it, Papa. I have spent my share of time dealing with what felt like overwhelming rage and frustration and anger. Even when I am told that truly my son is fairly difficult to manage and would make a saint weep, I still find it hard to justify those feelings in myself.
After all, this is my son, a precious gift from God, to cherish and nurture and guide. Right? Truly, he is and yet what I forget and need frequent reminders of, is that I am human with needs, too.
It's hard to get that when one is the primary caregiver, and it's essential that one get it. All parents deserve time-outs and strokes for doing their daily best. All parents deserve hugs and listening ears, thoughtful guidance and words of care. I'm glad that you have places to go and people in your life that can give those things to you, Papa Moose.
Hang in there - you are doing a great job from what you've shared and I've read - I wish I was on the east coast so I could meet your family - you all sound wonderful!
And remember: Just when one stage gets ironed out, the next one wrinkles up! (Edited to add this since it's really not a grumble! OR maybe it needs this or . . . okay, I'll stop!)
posted
Hi Jenny - thanks for the story - I needed to hear that as much as anyone else, I think! If for no other reason than to reflect on how far Nathan and I have come - and how far to go!)
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, Papa Moose, I may not be the one to console you, since I have no idea if I'm a good dad or not, but I get angry at my boy all the time, and he's almost six. Especially when I haven't had enough sleep.
Those little buggers are a lot more trouble than anyone ever warns you. Getting angry at them is only natural. It's what you do with the anger that is important.
I wish I could give you advice, but I don't think I'm handling my anger very well, either. But that may just be the worry of a loving dad. Because I do love the little tyke, more than he knows. And I try to let him know as often as I can. Which, I hope, is the important thing.
If your dad is still around, you might want to ask him (especially with your mom there) if he was ever angry at you or not. You might be suprised. Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Moose, I obviously don't know everything about your relationship with Carl, but I know you're a good father. I've seen how you are with him and, more importantly, how he is with you and with others. I don't think kids can be as outgoing, sweet, and loving as Carl is unless they have good parents.
posted
Thank you, folks. Nice to hear that I'm still relatively normal.
Icarus -- it reminded me of your recent post, too.
Sop -- we gave him a picture. Didn't quite settle it. And we don't have any other mooslings yet.
HDD -- we aren't spankers, at least not yet. If we do, it's more likely to be for things we consider far more important, like walking into the street. Only immediate grave danger issues. But we're not set yet, so we'll see. We haven't gone on many dates, simply because until I'm gainfully employed, we have difficulty convincing ourselves to pay for a sitter. And we're starting to get worried that we're overusing those who have watched him for free.
dkw -- interesting, hadn't looked at it that way. I mean, we're aware that he may get possessive of mommy and daddy once the baby is here, but perhaps it's happening already. We'll have to consider that one.
lma -- if you want to commiserate, Camarillo's only a hop skip and a jump down south.
Jenny -- wow. Thanks for adding on the later years of the story.
Shan -- we're on the west coast.
Andrew -- good idea. I'll ask my dad. I already know my mom did, though, from time to time, and she was the stay-at-home.
Saxon -- he started that way, so we're hesitant to take any credit, but thank you anyway.
Again, all, thank you. If there's ever anything I can do in return, just let me know.
posted
Moose, I think the feelings you are having are normal. Every parent gets angry at their kids sometimes. And Mooselet's behavior is normal, too, for a kid of his age, even without what he has gone through so far in his young life. Many young children wake up and look for reassurance from mom and dad in the middle of the night.
Like HDD, we took the path of least resistance, and let the kids crash on our bedroom floor if they woke up in the middle of the night. They actually continued to do it for quite a long time - Shlomo was a nightly visitor and JaneX a sometimes visitor well into elementary school.
posted
Sheesh, Jenny, you are way brave to share that. Though I can somewhat relate. Though I would have been much more likely to put the father out of my misery. I guess it's scarier to be weighing options, at that.
Papa Moose (why do I always think it's Poppa?) I'm also in that place with a three and a half year old who is six weeks into not being potty trained. We have just moved and my house is a mess. Of course, I only think of this when I'm sitting in the bathroom making sure he doesn't pee on the carpet. That's right, the bathroom is carpeted. So I sit there and think of all the things I could be doing instead. Even some things I *should* be doing.
I'm not a real spanking advocate (though we do spank because it's how my husband was raised - whole other can of worms) but there has to be a way of setting limits. It is frightening to a child to rule the roost. I know you don't want to traumatize him, or cause him to resent the baby by having everything change more than it has to.
But imagine if you woke up tomorrow and you were Mayor of your town, or a medical doctor (if that isn't your normal job). If you are letting Mooselet run things, he is likely overwhelmed and dreads making a mistake.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pop- I am in no way saying that spanking is the only way. We tried everything else. It was the last resort.
There is no one way of dicipline that works for every child. If I spanking did not work on my oldest. We ended up taking away his toys one by one when he disobeyd and giving them back when he did things good.
I know not everyone agrees with the way I raise my kids, but I always get compliments from adults on the behavior of my children. They are well rounded and are usually the first to help when needed. Their teachers say that they are the first to welcome new people or stick up for those who are being tormented. They are also the first to help the teacher and are attentive in class.
I applaud your determination not to spank. It is the easy way out. I am, if anything, lazy. Just ask my wife. It worked for me, on my youngest. The other two were different. Fear of physical punishment nver worked.
My daughter, time-outs worked the best. She could not stand to sit still for longer than a minute.
I have found that I no longer need to spank, my kids know when they are doing things wrong and it onlytakes a look to remind them that they need to stop the activity.
posted
Though I'm a newbie, it hasn't taken me long to figure out that the threads on this forum have a tendency to go a bit off topic. You have tangents, then tangents of tangents, then even more tangents till eventually someone like Hobbes says "screw it all, lets play hangman" which was darn funny, if you ask me.
But as I was saying, I get interested in a thread because of its topic and then read on to find that the topic is no longer the discussion at hand. C'est la vie. However, the topic of depression is one that intersts me, because I've been dealing with it for years, both personally and as a friend of those with it.
Pop, heres a big HUG and if it helps any, you are in my prayers. I know what depression is like. It's definitly good that you aren't keeping your feelings in to yourself, like I did for so many years. It doesn't do any good. Nowadays, my advice to anyone who thinks they may be depressed is this: let someone else know. If you are the type to talk to a professional counselor (i.e. NOT like Step Fletcher,) talk to a counselor. If you are the type to seek advice from a clergyperson, seek advice from a clergyperson. If you are the type to post your feelings in a community like Hatrack, then do that.
And Pop, don't worry, you're doing fine. I haven't yet had the opportunity to share in the blessings of raising my own children, but I know that anyone as thoughtful and loving as you obviously are doesn't have to worry about being a good parent. Of course, being a parent and a human being, you're gonna worry anyway, but at least you know that us Hatrackers support you all the way.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone else feel we need a symbol for prayers like we have for hugs?
posted
Pop, you're a good dad. I can't begin to tell you how frustrated I was when Christian discovered that he could get out of bed under his own power. He was three and not a climber. I had just moved him to a toddler bed. It was dreadful. Every night. I tried singing/reading/sitting with him til he slept. It took longer every night and I felt like a hostage. I knew there was something wrong with this picture.
I tried spanking. He laughed at me -- not good when I was tired. I timed myself out, so that I didn't lose it with him. Eventually, after everything failed to work, I told him that he could stay up as long as he wanted, but he had to stay in his room. He could choose whether the door was open or not. It stayed open as long as he stayed in his room; once he went out, it got closed, and I stood there in the hallway holding the door closed until he went to sleep. He screamed and pounded on the door. It took three of the longest weeks of my life to get him to understand that bedtime was bedtime and that he wasn't to leave his room unless he was bleeding or the apartment was on fire. I felt like the worst mom in the world. And I spent a lot of that time being angry with him, with my ex, with myself.
It doesn't appear to have damaged him, long-term. But I won't know for sure until he's an adult and he can tell me that I did okay.
I get mad at both my kids, but I have strategies for how to deal with things I see often, and that helps a LOT. When anger has my mind going in tiny little circles, I can go back to my strategies, and just follow the plan. It makes things a lot easier.
And it helps to have other parents to commiserate with, to tell me I'm not as bad as I think I am (or to tell me I've blown it and encourage me to figure out a way how not to repeat history).
A strong enough believer I'm going to Denver in two weeks to learn how to be a trainer. It's a loving and extremely effective way of working with kids, even kids that aren't your own. I don't believe in going as extreme as some of his suggestions for specific problems, but the general principles are dead center target on, I think.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Papa, I'm not an expert on depression, but as I understand it anger is a typical symptom of one of the two major forms of depression. I would strongly recommend the book "Feeling Good", which explains basic cognitive therapy and if you are only borderline depressed, it is a very good start to learning how to control it. The basic hypothesis of the book is that depression is vicious cycle, because it causes you to think in a distorted manner that exacerbates the depression. The point of the book is to teach you to recognize the specific ways in which depression distorts your thinking and teaches some basic skills for controlling the distorted thoughts. It has a chapter dealing specifically with anger which I think might really help.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rabbit-wow, my mom gave me that book when I went to college! She told me a lot of my friends are going to get depressed, so I should read it to be informed. I think it was a subtle way of expressing her worry that I might get depressed, but it's good to hear someone else say it's a good one.
Papa Mooose, I'm not a parent, but the kids I babysit hate going to bed, and used to get up all the time after I put them to bed, and we evolved an agreement-they get their bedtime books, then I'll turn out the lights and go tell each of them a story-but they know that if last time I was there they got up for a trivial reason, they don't get the story. It works pretty well. You might also try rewards for staying in bed all night, or something like that.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Anytime we've had this problem, we've nipped it in the bud early by just putting the offending child back in bed.
And while it kills me to hear their crying, I know they're safe and that if I can stand it for 10-15 minutes, they'll go to sleep.
And then I reassure myself that in a few short years, I'll be yelling at them at 11 a.m. to get the heck out of bed.
It's rough. I know it's rough. And even though it sounds mean, Mooselet probably wont remember it.
And love him more in the morning. Pay attention to him, play his favorite games, be his buddy. He just needs to know you guys cherish him. And since I know you do, everything will turn out fine.
posted
Thanks, jeni - I'm gonna go explore that website.
pooka! Bene Gesserit voice indeed - why not just go for Maud' Dib or, heaven forbid, Leto? Or would that be overkill?
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
As you know, exhaustion taps not only your physical reserves, but your emotional reserves as well. Last time I saw you you were getting sick, it makes sense that if you haven't been able to find some down-time, you'd be emotionally on edge.
When my second child was due, I was in your shoes in many ways. Between difficulties at work and sleepless nights due to John's anticipation of Jake's birth. I felt completely overwhelmed. I was panicked (sp?) at the thought of adding to the burden. I was afraid that I wasn't giving enough of myself to John, I was afraid that I would never feel rested and whole again. I was incredibly angry, on top of everything else, that the child in me was a boy and not a girl. I was ashamed of myself for not simply celebrating the fact that the babe was healthy. Nothing was going right, not even my marriage. I felt that the only common denominator was me... I must be a terrible person. Heck, the proof was that I was mad at my unborn child, what could he have possibly done to deserve such a lousy mother?
And at the back of my mind was this nagging voice saying, "How dare you spend this time self-indulgently thinking about your problems. You don't have time to be depressed. Get busy!"
So I started making a list at the end of the day. I started it to beat myself by listing all my faults, but then required myself to list a few positive things too. I easily, angrily, would list my shortcomings; but when it came to the attribute side, I would cry as I listed those things. I think it's much easier to beat-up on ourselves than to pat ourselves on the back.
Listing those attributes and accomplishments saved me. They made me like myself again.
That time is a blur to me now. But the lessons I learned are: * If you yell at your child, and you think you're in the wrong, apologize. -It teaches the kids it's okay to be mad and how to deal with anger. *Just make it to tomorrow -Sleep, glorious sleep, this too shall pass and you will get to sleep again *It's doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl, it's still going to own your heart. -I can't imagine any other child completing our family the way Jacob has. I thank God that I got what I needed and not what I wanted.
And you Pop, have an ace in the whole. You have Squirrel and you know that you're not doing this parenting, family, living thing alone. Guess what, she has you. And from what I've heard of her, she has pretty discriminating tastes. She chose a wonderful man who has been a great partner through very trying times. Trust her judgement.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
Beautiful thread. I wish I had more of substance to add, other than to commiserate. Since recent events have had me feeling a bit depressed myself, I don't know that I have any wisdom to contribute. And that's fine. I'll just contribute hugs. But I wanted to say to those of you who made longer posts detailing your own similar struggles and how you faced them, that you all rock!
And Brian--first of all, welcome!--it's no big deal when a thread is derailed: feel perfectly free to rerail it! Just respond to whatever point in the thread you feel like responding to. It's not a faux pas. (Did I spell that right?)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just thought of something interesting. It was while Abby was a baby that I joined Hatrack. I know for a fact that I was depressed. And all my interactions with this community have helped me to grow my way out of it. No wonder I love you guys. Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
Hatrack is sometimes better than therapy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Truly, he is and yet what I forget and need frequent reminders of, is that I am human with needs, too. ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
(Edited to add ![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
or . . . okay, I'll stop!)![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
Hi Shan!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
pooka! Bene Gesserit voice indeed - why not just go for Maud' Dib or, heaven forbid, Leto? Or would that be overkill?
