posted
I thought the discussion about potentially offensive language needed its own thread.
The pertinent quotes:
quote:Kayla It's the same thing, isn't it? Same basic intent, just changing the word slightly. Or Ralphies use of Jebus.
See, that's the thing I never got. The same people who told me not to cuss were saying "Gosh Darnit" and other fool things. The intent was the same. Even had the same beginning letters. Shoot. Fart/Fudge. Darn. Boogerhead. Why are these more acceptable than the words that the auto-censor would take out?
quote:kat swear words = bad substitute swear words = not bad
"Hey! That's not right!"
THEN...
(1) swear words = bad substitute swear words = bad
--OR--
(2) swear words = not bad substitute swear words = not bad
quote:kat I did some real-world swearing the other day, and I'm thinking the fake swearing was a gateway.
quote: and kat (again ) Primal Curve, in keeping with the recent spirit of the forum, placing a few dashes in place of letters doesn't actually mean you're not really swearing. Is there another word you could use?
Ok, now for my questions and comments and assorting other babbling.
I am one of the people who find so-called curse words offensive. So while I cannot speak for all those who do, I suspect my view may be somewhat representative.
I appreciate the fact that there is an autocensor here, and that there are mods to ensure that there is recourse for things the autocensor cannot catch.
Personally, I'd prefer a fewer (or even none) of the charming hand gesture, but I picked up very quickly that it's acceptable here. I can live with that. (Actually, I am fascinated by the fact that I find it more bothersome than *bite* or , both of which threaten violence. Interesting that my dislike of the gesture is so deeply ingrained.)
But as far as substitute words, or words where key letters have been replaced with --s or **s, I really don't have much of a problem.
I've been trying to figure out why since kat pointed out the discrepancy yesterday. I've come up with a theory.
Those who use these words clearly don't see anything wrong with doing so (I assume). Some of us do. So, in the spirit of community and compromise, they instead use modified or edited versions. They get to vent, express their strong feelings, and so forth; and I and others are not subjected to the language we object to.
posted
First, I'd like to compliment you on your thread title. Secondly, I'd like to point out that it doesn't exactly foster serious discussion. Someone sees something silly like that and gets in a silly mood.
Thirdly, I'd like to say that swearing is just a silly issue I'd rather not discuss. I'm going to be editing my post soon enough because I'm no longer feeling ornery. I don't understand why people get their collective panties in a bunch about the whole thing, but I'd rather respect that belief since it doesn't really hurt me to do so.
Yeah, n' junk.
Btw: "Frick" is pretty bland. I wouldn't even classify it as a replacement swear. It's like "darn" or "gosh" only funny. I think it should stick around.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
When I 'Frick' or "Fetch" or 'Jeez' or "Dang" or "Gek" or "Got Dandruff" or "Some of it itches" or "Cheese-n-Rice" I am not associating those words with the f-word, or Jesus, or Damn or the F-word, or well, you know.
I say the difference is in the intent. I would not say those words to people who don't recognize my intent.
When I say those words, I'm expressing displeasure, outrage, even grief and surprise, but my mind does not connect those words with the hateful, vile things the swear words represent.
When I see "f---ing" my mind immediately translates it into the f-word. When I see frickin', my mind thinks "frickin'."
It's an associative thing - not all euphemisms translate mentally to the words they are taming, whereas the "fill in the blanks" game is intended SPECIFICALLY for that, but to 'get away with it'.
If, in your mind, you automatically translated "frickin'" into the f-bomb, then yes: it's just as bad. If your mind simply reads frickin' and goes on, then it's not the same thing at all.
And if you don't find the f-bomb offensive in the least, then none of it matters.
I wonder how many people mentally translate the euphemisms into the words they are taming? Is that why some feel euphemisms are offensive, while others see them as no problem?
But if I had titled the thread "Oh, CHICKEN SOUP!" or "for the love of little green apples!" I didn't think people would have figured out what I meant. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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To me, it goes WAY deeper than sex. To me, I've made promises with God to NEVER say those words.
I could care less if it was about two bunnies running on the shore of a lake... if I say those words, I'm letting down my Heavenly Father, and that, my friend IS a big deal to me.
And don't forget.. alot of swear words out there are vile, demeaning and tasteless because they mock God. And last time I read the scriptures, it's pretty clear that in the end, God will not be mocked.
posted
Pere, that's not fair. Obviously they mean something more then sex, since we don't treat the word sex with the same sensitivity.
I use the word frell a lot. Part of it's my aversion to swearing in general, but most of it's an homage to Farscape. I also use the word tralk. I don't use them to replace anything, when I say frell, I mean frell. I use the f-word too, but only when I do something really stupid, or am extremely angry.
posted
A swear word here or there in casual conversation (which includes the Internet) does not bother me.
I have a coworker who swears sometimes at work. That bothers me. I feel that it is unprofessional. But it doesn't bother me enough (yet) to get on his case about it.
I also do not like it when people swear excessively. Like the couple in my building who were having a domestic argument in the hallway early one Sunday morning. I so did not need to hear that.
FWIW, I don't feel that there's a language problem at Hatrack. I haven't been bothered by anyone's use of language yet.
Nor does the hand gesture bother me--here, that is. I would be bothered if someone flashed me that gesture in person. I guess when it's used here, I read it as being more of a playful thing, and not that any insult is intended. I'm not sure why this is.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I find that I swear a lot more when I'm playing some sport or participating in some other kind of physical activity. There's something visceral about the nature of swearing.
And also when I'm drinking. Or in pain. Or in the morning.
"Swearing is the feeble effort of a weak mind to express oneself forcibly. "
If I can get my point forcibly using my wits and cleverness, I feel much more intelligent than if I said, 'oh yeah, well, f-you!'
Posts: 1800 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I swear when I see no good reason for Jeffrey not to be on AIM, and yet he refuses to sign on and chat me up.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Lou and Peter Berryman have a song called A Chat With Your Mother that contains the phrase “the f-word.” It does not include the actual f-word, just that phrase. It’s the only song they’ve ever written that was banned from being played on the radio. Apparently, at the time they wrote it, you could not only not say the f-word on the radio, you couldn’t even say “the f-word.”
This thread made me think of that. (Which is a good thing, I love the song.)
posted
i should have looked in this thread before i posted this in the "monkey bumps" thread. copied and pasted:
quote: If, in your mind, you automatically translated "frickin'" into the f-bomb, then yes: it's just as bad.
i don't agree with this. "frickin'" is not the same word as the "f-bomb." if you you replace the word "chicken" with "poultry" everytime i say it, it doesn't mean i said "poultry." but i don't really understand how a word can be considered bad in the first place, so i'm probably not making the best argument. okay, a better example...if someone says "oh my gosh" because they don't want to take god's name in vain, does that mean that they just said "oh my god," when they were specifically saying the former not to say the latter? i hope this is a coherent argument. oh, and.... (j/k )
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I'm not offended by swearing. It does annoy me, though. I often tell my friends to watch their language. In my mind, the "substitute" curse words are not the same as the curse words themselves. I have several nonsensical exclamations that I use. When I use one of those, or dang, shoot, etc, I'm expressing surprise, displeasure, pain, or something else along those lines. But it's far more mild than if I were to use an actual curse word. And so if I use a curse word, which I do on occasion, it communicates a different level of anger, pain, etc.
There was something one of my leaders at a camp a few years ago said that stuck with me. When a person uses curse words constantly, it dilutes the power of the langugage, so that when that person feels very strongly about something, he or she will have no way of expressing it.
Posts: 2149 | Registered: Aug 2000
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In those instances, I usually say something like "Jiminny Christmas!" It's very effective because it's not part of my day-to-day language. Of course, swearing really isn't either. I just say random crap.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I said the f-word when I realized the mafia had killed me this morning...
But usually I don't swear. I just edit swear words out of my mind before the words come out of my mouth...
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
For the record, oh-my-stars is not a replacement for anything. I think I like both the slightly old-fashioned feel and the juxtaposition of syllables.
The reason I am objecting to my own use of fake swear words - which has in the past six months spilled into some real world swearing - is not because they mentally invoke the more vile words they replace. I am objecting (personally, for myself, no greater judgement here, for crying out loud ( )) to the personal lack of control and the arrogant assumption that the world is interested in and willing fodder for my internal explosions. It doesn't matter what I'm saying - even fake swearing means there is a buildup of emotion inside that is being expressed through language onto people who generally neither asked for nor deserved it. It doesn't matter what I'm saying - the violent emotional expression is disrespectful.
When I first took Latin, a roommate and I used Latin words as fake swear words. They truly, truly didn't mean anything, but the emotion behind them vaguely offended another roommate of mine. I agree with her now - we should have had more respect.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
*loves the f-word song as it's so funny and has great lyrics* I was using that word this morning when my computer froze and I thought I couldn't get online again. I only swear when I'm really angry, carrying heavy luggage through timesquare or when I'm playing video games I'll often flip off the screen. But I've never cursed at someone. I'd rather save such words for when I'm furious so people will KNOW I am angry and get scared. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
*considers* This whole discussion has struck a chord for me because it highlights a recent slide in myself of which I am not proud. That's good, though, because now I can fix it.
The real-world swearing that appeared has not been directed AT someone, but instead ABOUT someone to another person who wasn't prepared for it, and it didn't involve the foulest of our language. It's cold consolation to know there is yet farther to fall, but at least it could be worse.
quote:And so if I use a curse word, which I do on occasion, it communicates a different level of anger, pain, etc.
Exactly. The recent appearance of swearing has everything to do with not being invited to my brother's wedding in May. I realize that I will be much happier, healthier, and altogether better when I get over it, but I think extreme anger is one of the stages, and that's when the swearing appeared.
posted
I think it could sometimes be an issue of emotional control rather than using words to release our anger. Why get so angry in the first place? I'm not talking about suppressing my anger, I'm talking about letting the problem flow over me like water on a duck's back.
If the problem can't be solved then just do what one needs to get through it. Anger won't give someone strength or courage. We may think it does, but it is more like a geyser rising up out of the ground with great destructive force. What one needs, in the face of insoluble difficulties that we must simply weather, is tranquility and endurance like the lake. Some water goes out, some goes in, but it is always there.
If it can be solved, anger won't solve it.
But what if I slam my finger in the door? There is an immediate and painful stimulus. I will probably exclaim something, if only to say OW! Tension released, very likely even literally. Stimulus comes charging down our nerves, we need to get rid of it. But adults, instead of crying like children, usually use words.
Anyway, I'm not saying anger is bad, just that it doesn't always serve our purpose. Even when I thought it did, I often looked back and thought of a reaction that would have helped things better. And like katharina said, the people around us don't generally need to get blasts of our anger.
But there are ALSO exclamations of suprise, not anger. Like, "Oh my stars, that was incredible!" Or of disbelief.
And I think there are also real, actual pleadings to the diety. But those are fairly rare, like in the face of death.
edit to say that this isn't in reaction to katharina, as it took me so darn long to write it. And yes, that was a euphanism. And yes, I have been known to use that word IRL. Lets just say that I grew up around farm swearing. J Golden Kimball is my hero.
posted
Oh yeah. J. Golden Kimball was an apostle early in LDS church history that is legendary in his use of what I termed farm swearing. I have to go now, maybe I'll post more about him later.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Personally, I actually like the sound of many of the substitute swear words. Dang, to a Southerner, isn't just a substitute for damn, but a wholly different expression of anguish and amazement.
But now and then, in my own speech, one of the Serious Seven will pop out, usually after stubbing a toe or something that really, really makes me mad. Sonuva*itch seems to be the one that pops up most of the time in moments of stress.
What does bother me, and sorry to point this at Northern neighbors, is the regular use of the F-word in regular speech. Generally from New Yorkers or New Jersey folks or Bostonians, the F-word is used as the regular adjective for anything else. Why? Has that curse word just become a little language blip of no real importance anymore?
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
To me, and maybe I'm too much of a literalist, swearing is a specific use of profane language. Strong or possibly foul language, may not be edifying but to me is in a different category from profane.
The commandment says, Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
This means to me, that you shouldn't make false promises and swear by God you are going to keep them. This would include such things as vows, marriage and other. To me, if my own word isn't enough and I've got to call in something else (like for instance "I swear on my mother's grave") to make it stronger I've got other problems.
I also used to be very careful to keep all religious or semi-religious terminology out of any strong language I use. This meant, I wouldn't say "hell" or "damn", and never-ever "gosh, golly,jeez" or any other such derivitave. I've slipped a bit and do now use "hell" or "damn" occasionally, though I suspect more in writing than I actually do in speech. This is because it is difficult to translate speech inflections into the written word and any other phrase used might not have the impact or non-impact intended.
I personally put anything relating to bodily functions in a separate category from the sacred and so therefore they are fair game. You can say "Poop" with exactly the same meaning as "sh--" but the latter is the one that rolls off the tounge more forcefully just from the vowel construction. The long O sound just destroys the impact of the word by dragging it out too much. You could say "sex" instead of "f--k" but once again it is a matter of sound and the way one is able to spit it out of their mouth. Sex has a long dragging end sound that doesn't allow it as punctuated of an ending. In fact both sh-- and f--k start out with soft sounds and end with very hard sounds. I think this contributes to their overall popularity and longevity of use.
I guess I look at swearing also as a means to communicate with an audience. For the guys on the shop floor, if I said, "he's a stuck up selfrighteous prig and a plasmodial slime mold" (which if I recall correctly from biology is a confused mold that actually acts like a fungus)nobody would have any idea what I was talking about. If I say he's an a--hole they get the picture in under a second.
Also most of the swearing I do is directed at myself for my own mistakes, not directed someone else, though I do occasionally make exceptions for taxi drivers while driving in Chicago city traffic.
quote:When I first took Latin, a roommate and I used Latin words as fake swear words.
Did you, by any chance, use facio? That one still cracks me up sometimes. In an unrelated story, I found out yesterday that the Romans had a word for SBD. Suppedere means "to fart quietly." Finding that out reaffirmed my faith in humanity.
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quote:When I use one of those, or dang, shoot, etc, I'm expressing surprise, displeasure, pain, or something else along those lines. But it's far more mild than if I were to use an actual curse word. And so if I use a curse word, which I do on occasion, it communicates a different level of anger, pain, etc.
I found this interesting. Because the thing is that to some people, the "bad" words carry no more weight or force of emotion than the substitute words do for you.
I guess it all boils down to whether you think that it's the emotion, the act of expression, or the manner of expression that matters. Personally, I think that it's difficult to control yourself well enough to avoid certain emotions, mostly the ones that are immediate and intense, such as the frustration that you feel when you stub your toe. I don't look down on a person for cursing when he slams his finger in a door because the reaction is so automatic that it's meaningless. (Interestingly enough, I don't usually swear when I hurt myself. This morning I stubbed my toe on a door jamb and although my mouth opened wide and I squeezed my eyes tightly closed, I didn't make a sound. Kind of surprised myself, actually.) Swearing really only bothers me around children and elderly people. Still, I don't swear much, and when I do it's around certain people and never in anger or passion (often it involves the punchline to a joke).
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Did you, by any chance, use facio? That one still cracks me up sometimes.
*grin* That's EXACTLY what I meant.
Most surreal experience: going to party with professors, Latin professor drinking, learning that the f-word in Latin still starts with an F.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: For the record, oh-my-stars is not a replacement for anything.
That's exactly why I chose it, actually.
Interesting point, kat. You're right, swearing at (or around) someone is an issue, regardless of the actual words used. Most of the time when I do so (almost always with phrases like "chicken SOUP!"), I am alone. (Or at least not addressing anyone.) It's still a self-control issue (which is why I really try to limit it to sudden pain or stress), but it's not an issue of inflicting it on others.
quote: What does bother me, and sorry to point this at Northern neighbors, is the regular use of the F-word in regular speech. Generally from New Yorkers or New Jersey folks or Bostonians, the F-word is used as the regular adjective for anything else. Why? Has that curse word just become a little language blip of no real importance anymore?
Sadly, it's other people as well. One of the things I hated about some of my lab classes when I was in college was having to spend 3-4 hours with people who used words I considered vile as if they were punctuation. Polite requests to refrain (from me and several others) were greeted with derision. One then made a point of using as many such words as he could manage; another simply tacked on an "oops, sorry" after every few; but the third really did try to replace them with milder words.
Naturally, it was the first two who I had labs with for three quarters in a row. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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1) I prefer @#$@#$@#$@# instead of any words. I just put that down to my own sense of comedy. That's how they curse in the comics.
2) I rarely use curse words. I do not due this for some deep moral conviction or because I find them distasteful...well, besides for those reasons.
The power of a curse word comes in its shock value. If it is used routinely, say when Ralphie flirts with someone else, then you have no arsenal for really important moments, such as when Hatrack is down for maintenance or you stub your toe on the way to the bathroom at 2am.
Seriously, I stood in our companies warehouse surrounded by guys who's every third word could not be used on television. I was upset and let one small "innapropriate" word slip out, and the place hushed. Everyone turned and the foreman said, "What's the matter Dan?"
3) Curse words, especially the F-word are becoming way too common and are loosing their meaning. Whenever some one curses at me I picture them meaning what they are actually saying. I saw a customer at the grocery store yell, "Where are the F--ing apples." I said back, "Look just below the Navel oranges." He didn't get the joke.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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When I went to Christian school, we used to get a talking-to if we said "Darn" Or "gosh darnit" or "shoot". The talking-to amounted to "Saying that is just as bad as saying the other."
Only, if we said the 'other', we got sent to the principal's office instead of the talking-to. So they said it was the same but didn't treat it the same.
That's one of the many reasons I still think organized religion is effed in the head-- because most people are IDIOTS. *grumble*
[/rant]
Back when I cared about whether or not I cursed, I would say strange things, not 'replacement words'. Like, "Oh, PICKLES!" or some such.
My sister once said something really funny when she hit her thumb with a hammer. It started out as cursing, but she managed to reel it in. It went like this:
"Son of a... Mother... Duck!"
We still laugh about that one. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
"$@%$%#" is just funny to me for some reason. Sometimes I think people curse too much. Especially when I'm walking past people and every other word is F this and F that... But it is amusing when peopel can curse creatively like my friend's brother who just uses the worse most offensive language and makes it sound almost artful and poetic. I reckon there are exceptions.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
On your "Interesting Note" this could explain the most powerful curse/forbidden word in modern US culture is the N word.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
A recent issue of the New Yorker had an article on 'mat' a Russian slang that centers around words related to sex and genitilia. The article isn't online but exerpts from it and subsequent discussion can be found at languagehat.
The article claims that Russian swearing relates almost soley to sex -- it's the Germans who are scatological.
Warning: contains swear words (obviously)
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I can live with that. (Actually, I am fascinated by the fact that I find it more bothersome than *bite* or ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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