posted
You miss the point, Ela. I haven't lost my respect for Katharina because I disagree with her -- if that were the case, I doubt I'd have respect for anyone at all. No. What I dislike about Katharina is her unbelievable tendency to lie and ignore all responsibility for her lies when people respond to them. Obviously, you missed the god-knows-how-many-pages thread in which Katharina insulted both Caleb and me, both with lies, then lied more to avoid responsibility for her actions. Then, a week after she ran away from an analysis of her lies I wasted a good hour or two of my life on, she started it up again.
No. Katharina doesn't deserve respect. But Kayla does, and I hope she'll continue in a manner that merits it.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I should mention, however, I have yet to see Katharina lie in this thread. A blessing.
I have to wonder what Frisco did, however. He's a good guy, and I doubt he'd ever post anything malicious. I wish he hadn't edited his post out of courtesy to Katharina, so I could better understand whatever it was he wrote.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo, your posts are making me sad. I have seen the thread that you are referring to. I don't believe that Kat ever intentionally lied, though she did hurt some feelings by her tendency to skim posts instead of reading the whole thing.
It happened, it's done, let's put it in the past already. Are you going to berate her about it forever?
You know, it started out being a good-natured discussion on non-political issues with everyone keeping their cool, contributing their ideas and being somewhat civil.
I was even starting to understand rivka again, and lighten up in my codgerness.
Then it turned nasty. Then it turned to arguments that happened WEEKS ago. And no one is budging.
Maybe the newbies who use smilies are on to something.
Posts: 1800 | Registered: Apr 2000
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[rant] You know, I was pretty calm discussing this with people, but now they're just getting unneccisarily knitpicky, and cranky, and nasty, and...I'm starting to get kind of ticked off! I mean, just get over it, people! I'm now containing fluff to fluff-based threads only. If you don't want to see fluff, don't read those threads! If cheerful smileys make you upset, then that's your problem! Get over it! [/rant]
Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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"I should mention, however, I have yet to see Katharina lie in this thread."
Eddie, don't make me kick you. I shouldn't have to tell you -- YOU, of all people -- that misrepresenting or misunderstanding someone's argument is not the same thing as a lie, and I think it's intolerably underhanded of you to harp on these "lies" as if they were actually sins of some great magnitude, some enormous character flaw that precludes your ability to respect or empathize with her.
The fact is, Eds, you're trying to hurt somebody who never meant to hurt you, and you're kicking sand in her face every time you accuse her of "lying." Deliberately. Every time. You rip open a wound and pour vinegar in it and DARE her to respond.
I know this, because I've had it done to me. Remember Baldar?
If you really, sincerely, feel that kat somehow "lied" about, of all ridiculous and pathetic things to stretch the truth about, some positions and quotes on a DISCUSSION FORUM, let that color your opinion of her as much as you want; note, however, that I don't share your opinion. Either way, though, don't harp on it, not least because it makes you tiresome.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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...said the man who's pounced on Kayla for far less.
I'm afraid don't understand your insistence on defending poor suffering Katharine from charges of lying -- which I doubt you'll deny -- and still threaten an attempt to ban Kayla for harassment. Harassment which, while unjustified, was neither baseless nor false.
What's this about "trying to hurt someone who never meant to hurt [me]"? I wanted an apology weeks ago for lies she made, or at least some kind of acknowledgement of responsibility. While I'm over expecting that of her, there's no way I'm going to charge Kayla with harassment and pretend it was entirely without cause. Katharine has exasperated the hell out of many people with her constant avoidance of responsibility, and while I think it was petty of Kayla to bring it up here, it's not a shot in the dark.
Again, I'm not looking to attack Katharine for the hell of it -- if you'll notice, I asked Kayla to end it. But Kayla wasn't making up the charges she held against Katharine. And I'm not going to pretend she did -- to do so would only shame Kayla, who deserves shame far less than Katharina deserves acknowledgement of her moral failings. This isn't the right time or place, if there ever is a right time or place, but I'm not going to pretend Kayla's behavior was random and causeless.
Not even for you, sweetcheeks.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lalo, you're taking what you claim to be Katharina's "lies" a bit too far.
Maybe she did. If she did -- please note I did say if -- then the kind of backlash you're doing is like beating somebody to a pulp just because they bumped you on accident walking down the street.
In other words, you're over-dramatizing this -- possibly for your own benefit -- and it's getting to be rather disgusting. I don't know what happened between you and Katharina, but I do know that you are being a prick in the way you tell your side of what happened -- which saxon75 wisely tried to prevent peacefully, I might add.
[ November 25, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Ugh. Christ. I told myself I wouldn't get into this again...
Kayla, I'm going to leave it at a you're-unjustified-in-attacking-her-(though-not-without-reason)-and-please-end-it. It's not worth the hassle, Katharina's morality is nothing for me to fight about, and it lessens anyone to bring up her past actions, no matter how immoral. I don't think she was right in the past, but I don't think you're (nor I) doing any great service to the board by attacking her. In this thread, at least, she's not on the offense and doesn't deserve to be treated as such.
You know. Hate the sin, love the sinner. It's time we put it behind us.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lalo, I wanted to send you an e-mail, but I don't have your address. I have nothing against you, and we've never had an issue other than the current controversy that was someone else's concern. If you have any concerns with me you would like to resolve, e-mail me. If your goal is to try to create a feeling of opposition against me - make me as miserable as possible, as publicly as possible - you are doing yourself a disservice. You are also being a jackass, and that should be uncomfortable because you are not one at heart. There are many causes in this world that deserve a well-meaning champion. Personal vendettas are not among them.
No, I never intentionally lied about anything. I can do nothing other than protest innocence. That protest can reassure those who looked for themselves (thank you) and saw no reason to believe I did, will change the minds of some not at all, and may convince only a few.
But I am both comforted and made wary by knowing that time generally sifts out the truth - that a person reveals himself and who he is by his own actions. I'm comforted by knowing I didn't lie, didn't do whatever it is I'm accused of, and I'm made wary because I know that secret weaknesses are scarcely as secret as one would like to think. That's almost okay - I still love Hatrack, and as a society, it's worth it to me despite the occasional unfortunate resemblance to the rest of humanity.
Ela: Thank you for that. I believe what I said - Hatrack was a safe place for me when I didn't have another one. I do skip some posts - every one that starts out nasty. That's also how I occasionally miss some information - I don't read things where someone is yelling at me. At all. Ever. The longer it is, the easier to skip.
---------
Maybe Lalo et. al. consider it acceptable to vituperatively accuse me of whatever it is - moral failings - because of my belief concerning the issue that touched everything off. My Opinion: You can take a stance on whatever you want, but you can't attack a person personally. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" means you protest against the action, not the person.
In other words, you can rail against the act of lying from here till Sunday, but do not diminish me or anyone else to the embodiment of a single trait. NO ONE, not a a single person, not a one is defined as a whole by a single trait or act. No one is solely smart, shy, cruel, impulsive, Mormon, or gay.
-------
Tom, I remember when Baldar was on. I think he did some serious, serious damage to the board that is still being felt. Threads like this are one of the results of threads of his. I do like everyone here, and that was the explanation I thought of that could explain everything.
Fights like this are like those in a family after some serious trauma. I'm sorry Baldar ever came here. He was this strong, smart, fascinating, cruel, cruel poster, and people are drawn to and imitate strength, even when that strength is evil and destructive. You bore the brunt of his, and it has to be because he saw your magnanimous Making as the greatest threat to himself.
posted
Silly Scott. Celia is the source of all evil. She is the essence of evil. She is evil incarnate. You'd better give her proper credit lest you face her terrible wrath!
posted
Probably not a bad idea Scott, because all though Celia claims to be evil, a far more defining feature is lazy, and you're a bit too far away from her to unleash wrath upon.
posted
My feeling is that what Ela said is absolutely correct. Kat and I don't see eye to eye on most things but I would hope that she respects me as much as I respect her. I think Kat is a warm and wonderful person who also believes what she believes fervently and unashamedly. Sometimes believing like that can be hard for the believer and for others.
I try not to take peoples' views personally when they rest on that person's religious faith. It's hard, I know, to sit aside and say "Ok, you are strongly against something in a way that I find morally reprehensible even though you believe, wholly and fully that your views are moral and as mandated by your God." It's hard and it hurts but sometimes we all need to accept that sometimes peoples' beliefs aren't up for debate. And that's just the way it is.
Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Out of interest, has anyone expressed dislike for Katharina based on her political positions rather than her moral strengths?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Katharina, I've promised Tom I wouldn't go back to the thread in which you lied for the sake of argument -- and, as much as it pains me to retire from this as the evil bastard who mercilessly targetted poor victimized you, I'm sick of degrading myself to point out your avoidance of responsibility.
Sure, you didn't lie. You just invented positions and attacked people's characters -- then ran away when you discovered they were going to post. Sure, everyone's targetting poor victimized you because of your political positions -- not because you've lied about people then refused to answer any questions posed to you, be they about your lies or your positions. Sure, everyone's just out to make you miserable -- it's not like all anyone's been asking is for you to accept responsibility for the lies and infuriating dances around responses you take such delight in.
I hate leaving a fight in which I have morality, integrity, history, reason, and god on my side. I hate doing it even more when despite all the evidence against you, I still come out as the victimizing bastard who targets you for the sake of making poor suffering you miserable. I hate it all the more when you're still convinced -- or still try to convince others -- that you're just a wilting flower under attack by hostile sadistic forces of the universe, and still refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.
But, fock it. I'm done. If nothing else comes out of this, I'm glad I at least learned what to expect when dealing with you.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
it can die now that i've said scott is wise beyond his years and hobbes didn't know my wrath yet when he posted that foolishness.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I swore I wasn't going to do this, but at least I think saying these things would help others later on who are either feeling this way or who learn that they are causing others to feel this way.
Just so I can make it clearer for context, let me give the names I'm better known as around here: Leto, Leto II, GreNME, and to quite a few people, "that incredibly smug and rude jackass."
When I began posting here, I was timid, mostly because I did not understand how the interaction between posters worked. I actually read the forum for the whole summer before I actually first registered, so I did have a little background on the discussions. However, the only similar situation to this forum that I have had was the alt.fan.dune newsgroup on UseNet which, though Tom regularly loves to insult (I mean UseNet in general), still has a few gems that show Hatrack truly isn't the first online forum for a real "community" type of relating. In fact, I would say that alt.fan.dune was, at the time I posted there regularly, a place where there was a real sense of community. I still remember a few of those individuals, and check back periodically to see who is still around, as well as how they're doing. It's changed, though: more "frivolous" posting, a lot of infighting and some unnecessary bickering, and even the occasional spammers/trolls/whatever-you-call-those-multi-post-crappers who flooded the place with either porn, excessively graphic voilent threats, and so on. Hatrack has seen a few of those spammers, and some people love to (selectively) remember Baldar as the big, evil "Troll above all trolls." (Whether he was or not is really not up for debate: the general consensus is that he was just shy of being the AntiChrist, and I don't really care whether he was or not) For quite some time now—longer than many would admit, I bet—things have been getting less serious and more frivolous around here.
Through that time, I've become less timid, and have earned a reputation varying from person to person, ranging from impulsive and unthinking before I post all the way to intentionally berating and insulting anyone and everyone who does not totally agree with everything I ever have to say. Despite popular opinion, there have only been a handful of individuals (meaning less than five) who I actually personally disliked, or opposed on a personal level. Only a few, though, and I am even a bit embarrassed to admit that many. I'm not going to even bother getting into justifying any of it, because there is some that can't be justified, and some still that no matter the justification, it would still be unacceptable (either because it's me, or because they don't ever accept it). So, even I have been in the position where the "getting too personal" has gotten in the way of experiencing the good parts of the online community. It happens, life goes on, we move on... at least, we do in the ideal situation.
Of course, the ideal doesn't always happen.
I can name one instance where it didn't happen with me, but even in that case, I've come to the conclusion that they don't even realize what a bad person they really are (in my opinion, that is... I dislike them for reasons to do with ethics), and I'm not the best person to tell them otherwise anyway. With all of the other cases, once I got through the instance where I was personally angry or personally disliking them, it wasn't worth hanging on to. While I'm sure plenty of people will say "no, I never had that happen... I never got that bad," I have also been around here long enough to know otherwise. This thread is a fine example of people not letting things go, as well as letting other things make this an unpleasant place to be a part of for some people. Some of it has to do with the hierarchy of self-importance—despite what some may say they've seen, post counts and (more often) member numbers have played a role in claiming importance in contribution to the forum. Some of it has been because of catty arguments on hot-topic threads. Some of it has been because people just don't like how some people talk, and decide to assume the worst about them then hold a grudge over it.
It began to bother me quite some time ago, and I recall even making a thread about it: about the cliques, about the catty undertones, and about people letting their stupid grudges ruin an otherwise good forum. While there was plenty of discussion within the thread, I doubted much changed. I still don't. My own personal experience with those with grudges has had me stop posting a few times, with one of those times resulting in even having to deal with those grudges causing Kathryn (the moderator) to delete a thread all based on the incorrect assumptions of those who were clinging to those grudges. Also because of that incident, I was told that my protestations did not matter in the case (by Kathryn), because those who were complaining had already complained, and it was dealt with. Basically, I was told my opinion on the matter was irrelevant. I was insulted. Later, there was an incident where something I said was taken completely out of context, because I said it, and no matter how I protested, I was immediately assumed to be trolling for a fight. Compounding the incident was that the person I allegedly insulted had a grudge against me, and even admitted as much. Yet, even as I held my claim that I wasn't trying to start a fight, I was cursed at and insulted (<hyperbole>which is apparently only against the rules when it's not me being treated so </hyperbole>), and told that I was a liar. I may be rough when speaking to people sometimes, and I am definitely aggressive, but one thing I am not is a liar. After a conversation with someone about how what I said was taken out of line, I conceded that the single sentence could have been taken as offensive (when picturing a smug, arrogant jackass saying it with a half-grin), I made my last post as "Leto II" an apology for having offended. Then, I promptly requested that Kathryn delete the account, as well as "LetoII," "GreNME," and a few others.
Neither of those instances are indicative of what goes on daily here, nor what happens in every thread. However, it has happened to more people than just me. Sure, the details aren't the same, and not everything that happened to me happened to them, but the end result is the same: people are pushed away because of behavior that estranges them from the feeling of community that was here when they began posting.
And this is where I begin to get to the point (sorry for having taken so long).
Remember this when you bash another forum, whether it be Ornery, PWeb, or some non-OSC-related forum. Remember that this forum is not without its failures in the ethical treatment of others, and that people are pushed away, sometimes unfairly (and I don't just mean the n00bs). Remember that even though the general environment here is not as volatile or as prone to flame-fests as some internet forums are, all of those same temptations are present, and people still sometimes fall for them. Remember that while holding the opinion that Hatrack is full of intelligent and friendly and thoughtful people is good, holding the opinion that Hatrack is more intelligent and more friendly and more thoughtful than any other place on the internet is snobbery in the utmost, especially when being so snobbish towards Ornery and PWeb.
I don't think Hatrack is going to pot, I don't think that this is some lasting legacy of Baldar, and I don't think that emoticons are ruining the forum. I also don't think I am welcome enough to participate, except under conditions that I behave in a manner that this thread shows others cannot even behave in. I say what I feel, when I feel it, and I will even adjust what I say later if that changes. I'm straight-forward, but I'm also aggressive. I come off as combatitive, and I don't say anything when typing that I wouldn't say in person, as anyone who has met me can attest to. I feel that there is definitely a difference to hearing me say it in person as opposed to typing it in a post, and while I've made some adjustments, the plain truth is that I type how I speak. I'm not trying to wow anyone with a fabulous vocabulary or references to all of the intellectual pieces of art and literature I can think of, and I don't feel an overwhelming need to personalize every issue I debate. If you can change my mind on something, good for you, but if not, don't expect me to just "agree to disagree" with you. If you find that offensive, then I'm sorry, but it's really nothing personal. Regardless, you don't have to worry about that any more, because you don't have to argue with me about it.
This isn't some stupid "goodbye" post, either—those of you who want to get hold of me for anything can easily do so the way you always have: e-mail or IM. I even have a small forum that I usually use either to host mafia or some other sundry small tasks, and you can always private message me there. I'm not disappearing, but I'm not playing the game of "try to make Leto less mean" here any more. I'm not even blaming Hatrack for this, because I'm sure a good portion of it is because I still feel insulted, both from being called a liar and from being told my opinion doesn't matter. I'll get over it. I just wanted to put this somewhere appropriate, and here in this thread—where it's obvious that there are some grudges working in many directions, from more than one person—seemed the best place because it's a good show of how these things can get out of hand. It's not even the worst I've seen. However, it's a good reminder that while some here may like to opine that Hatrack is oh-so-much-better than Ornery or PWeb, the same things happen here.
If you don't have my IM or don't see me on it, it's probably because I don't have you on my list. That's okay, because the old e-mail works just fine, as does the private messaging system on my site (though the former is preferred). I haven't decided whether I'll ask for this to be deleted or not, but if it ends up not logging on after this, I won't protest nor be surprised. Oh, and [completely-off-topic] treat Starla* well, because she's a friend and someone I know personally.[/completely-off-topic] Posts: 779 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I didn't think you'd registered "that incredibly smug and rude jackass" yet . . .
Leto, you know most of us rather like you. Good post.
Honestly, I don't think you're mean either, and that has never been my supposition. Godspeed, and if I'm ever fabulously wealthy look for a powerbook in the mail.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I like John. But I ALSO think he's mean. The two aren't necessarily exclusive. (It's for this reason that the appearance of a John L. on Ornery made my heart skip a half a beat or so; I've missed Leto a bit. Unfortunately, that John L. doesn't appear to be nearly as interesting as this John L., so my excitement was short-lived.)
Still, I hope this doesn't mean Leto won't let those of us who still like him continue trying to get Kama to the States. *grin*
quote:""If you are like most people, you devote considerably more energy to what you say rather than how you say it. But, do you realize that when you talk to someone, an astonishing 90% of the message one receives is from your body language, or nonverbal communication? Only 10% of the message they receive is from your words.
This means that 90% of what you communicate is derived from what you do rather than what you say...the gestures you use...what facial expressions you use...how you move your body...how you use silence...how you use the space around you...and any other behavior from which others can derive meaning".
- Body Speak
This is certainly true of John. Before I met him, I too thought he was a meany. After I met him, I went back and read the same posts that had "offended" me and laughed or understood his message.
John's body language and tones are welcoming rather than combative. His words will say that you have just broached a concept that is completely against his every experience, but the body language says "I value you, so I'm willing to let you convince me".
A tough concept to get across in words alone.
I've always thought of John as the kid in the parade who shouts out, "Look, the Emperor has no clothes!"
He measures everything against what his personal experience has proven. He doesn't measure the message by the messenger; nor will he toss out the messenger of a false message if the message is honestly delivered.
And as long as I'm mentioning strong points; I must say how impressed I've been with how John has successfully endured a tremendous amount of physical and mental pain the last couple of years with a minimal amount of whining or self-aggrandizement.
I'm very protective of my son and he's a tough judge of character. But John became an immediate and positive fixture in both our hearts.
So John, you matter and your opinion matters to me because it is fresh and unique and rarely holds an ulterior motive.
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