posted
And, by the way, I object to the constant putting down of pweb that I have been observing on this forum. It's not nice and totally unneccessary. If you don't like pweb, don't go there. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Eddie, do you feel like you have any more right to be here and be yourself than anyone else on the forum? Do you feel like you're in a place to say you "really must request" anything and have your wishes honored?
It's baffling to me. Frankly, if "serious posters" means members who have been here so long that they think they can dictate what people should and should not do around here, then I sincerely hope I'm not counted as one of them.
"Serious members," to me, means members that contribute more than a very unique emoticon. I don't mind restrained idiocy, if it's a mild presence on Hatrack -- however, while I've never participated much in fluff, the growing number of threads whose sole reason for existence is to show how pretty certains breeds of emoticons are has irritated me and driven several people away from posting. Among the very few who have posted about emoticons (out of respect for privacy, not citing those who have not posted their concerns), Jeni, Pat, Toni, and myself have all expressed disinterest in posting as a result of Hatrack's declining IQ. And considering those members' worths, I feel it's a crime that such unique personalities as Toni and Pat are being replaced by personality-less (though, I'm sure, very unique) emoticons. I don't mind the posters posting anything worth reading, but pages upon pages of idiocy are better suited to P-Web.
People can do whatever they want. But if they're so utterly fascinated by their ability to post pretty heads, why not do so at P-Web, where nobody will be irritated, the very unique artists can express their very unique abilities, and everyone will be happier?
If they have anything that requires thought, by all means, they're welcome to post it here. But if they need to masturbate through the use of pretty colored heads, P-Web's open to that kind of mess.
Hobbes, this is one of Toni's posts from the other emoticon thread. I don't think I could express my own feelings better.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I'll have to forgive your continued intolerance for "fluff." I live in hope that some day you will understand. (((((Ralphie))))) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know, Rivka, it's not the fluff. Like I said, when you get all fluffy it doesn't bother me. I've been known to indulge in fluff from time to time.
I think it comes down to this:
In every relationship people have to put in what they take out, or the other party will eventually become resentful that they are being taxed without any compensation. Fluff has it's place on Hatrack, just like serious debate does, and I appreciate them both for what they are.
Then I see what I can only imagine are kids sign on, give NOTHING to the community in the way of debate, unique perspective, intelligent conversation or even comedic value but rather jump from thread to thread, topic to topic, littering the place with banal smilies*, instant message-like "banter" and basic derailment to talk about what maybe all of three people want to talk about. And it usually comes down to NOTHING.
When the fluff is relegated to a few threads, and it's pretty obvious which threads those are, that's fairly benign and pretty much expected. When people feel they need to make nothing but fluff threads, or WORSE, infect non-fluff threads with their tired campaigns of pro-smilie something somethings, then they are taking away without any intention of giving back.
I'm not a curmudgeon. Good gravy, I barely post anything myself that couldn't be catagorized as fluff in the narrowest terms. But my hope is that I don't simply take from the forums, and that I do my part (like you do, and countless others) to add to it and keep the checking account balanced.
I mean, isn't that the whole point of Ralphie Luv™?
(*which are not even fulfilling their intended purpose, which is to assist people in conveying how they feel or what they mean as we are limited in expression, tone and mannerisms on the net.)
posted
See the thing with Ralphie's post is that it sounds more like a general attitude she's objecting to. The use of the forum as an extension as AIM instead of a more controlled arena. I certainly understand and sympathize with this view, but I don't see the smillies as a cause. Certainly the smilies are used in cases like this but it's very hard for me to believe that they're actually the cause of this attitude. If you want to campaing against the "IM factor" of this board I wont stop you but I just really fail to see the new smilies as causing a break down in serious communication on Hatrack.
posted
You still didn't answer my first two questions.
While it's SUCH an honor to have brilliantly eloquent non-emoticon-using "serious posters" in the community, none of you have the right to say that if certain things are eliminated from the forum, or if certain people leave, than "everyone will be happier." If you don't want to post anymore, if smilies really and truly make you not want to post, then just don't.
posted
I know, I was responding to Ralphie's words that Lalo quoted... I thought I was responding to both of them at the same time that way, was I not?
quote:You still didn't answer my first two questions.
While it's SUCH an honor to have brilliantly eloquent non-emoticon-using "serious posters" in the community, none of you have the right to say that if certain things are eliminated from the forum, or if certain people leave, than "everyone will be happier."
Gosh, Narnia, it's almost as though you haven't read a single post I've written. Nobody's asking anyone to leave. Only, if they feel the need to masturbate with dancing colored circles, to do it at P-Web. How many times need I repeat that actual opinions or feelings or questions should be and are welcome at Hatrack?
quote:If you don't want to post anymore, if smilies really and truly make you not want to post, then just don't.
Thanks for the swell advice, Narnia, but I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about people that are worth keeping, like Pat and Toni and Jeni, being driven away by the declining Hatrack IQ. If you don't think it's a crime that such quality posters are being replaced by legions of dancing colored spots, I have trouble believing you met Toni at the Portland signing.
Also, there's absolutely no need for a clash over this. If people feel the need to ejaculate emoticons, why not do it at P-Web and save Hatrack the bandwidth of supporting hundreds of meaningless threads of this?
quote:See the thing with Ralphie's post is that it sounds more like a general attitude she's objecting to. The use of the forum as an extension as AIM instead of a more controlled arena. I certainly understand and sympathize with this view, but I don't see the smillies as a cause. Certainly the smilies are used in cases like this but it's very hard for me to believe that they're actually the cause of this attitude. If you want to campaing against the "IM factor" of this board I wont stop you but I just really fail to see the new smilies as causing a break down in serious communication on Hatrack.
From Toni's post:
quote:Then I see what I can only imagine are kids sign on, give NOTHING to the community in the way of debate, unique perspective, intelligent conversation or even comedic value but rather jump from thread to thread, topic to topic, littering the place with banal smilies*, instant message-like "banter" and basic derailment to talk about what maybe all of three people want to talk about. And it usually comes down to NOTHING.
And yes, I don't see the emoticons as a cause of idiocy, only an enabling tool. If you leave a gun among kids, someone's going to get shot. If you leave pretty colored spots available to kids, someone's going to abuse them.
I don't mind emoticons, as I've said over and over again. I do, specifically, have a problem with these emoticons -- other emoticons, while they still have potential for abuse, are far less distracting to readers (and thus far less attractive to those who post them).
Do we need the following emoticons? If people need to express their very unique feelings through legions of these very unique emoticons, doubtless they can do so at P-Web.
No doubt Hatrack could go without the others, including others I formerly declared intolerable, but I'm willing to tolerate them if they're used in a meaningful way. But these, with their incredible potential for abuse (which has been acted upon time and time again) need to go.
Nice character attack, Narnia. Why don't you tell everyone what I deleted?
I mean, don't you think they'll be shocked that I deleted two posts containing eight emoticons apiece?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I suppose the reason the smilies become a focus, Hobbes, is because they're animated (and more than the little bit of animation in or or ). They're distracting - and as Frisco pointed out elsewhere, most of them are essentially a pictorial representation of a phrase, not an expression of emotion.
*shrug*
I'm guessing that what bothers people most is that these smilies offer so much more in the way of conversation without saying anything. With the old batch, if people were getting antsy in a thread, someone could say, "Hey, everyone - " or something. Now, that can be (and often is) followed up by fifteen different variations on the same theme involving various (all and sundry) new smilies. It encourages people to just click the smilie they want a few times rather than respond carefully to posts.
Personally, I only object to the Gay Train, the Mutant Party, the Free Love Fest and Tupee Man. The others I can live with, but those ones really drive me up the wall.
But hey, that's just 5% of the smilies on my uni's theatre society forums. Of course, they have the Drunken Maniac smilie so I like those Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
For some reason, your fervent arguing over something so trivial as this sickens me. Not that a discussion is bad. Go right ahead and discuss it all you want. But it seems like you're doing everything short of crucifying people for using smilies.
Whats the term I've heard used in the past? Troll?
Not to say that i'm totally against what you've said. TheWave smilie has been slightly overused, and the random silliness has increased. But telling people to go away just because of it (meaning to another forum or whatever) is just plain rude. Bite your lip, suck it up, whatever. Just get over it.
Oh, and have a nice day. Life is too precious to spend it grumbling at people through a forum. In case ya missed it the first time..
posted
Maybe the charecter attacks could stop from both sides...?
Lalo, when you say the smilies are like a gun among children I don't exactly understand what you mean. Exactly who is getting shot when they go off? They obviously aren't causing what you see as poor quality posts, so it's not like that could be an effect. It sounds to me like you've admitted that they really don't cause anything, they just are used more often than you want. Is this true or am I putting words in your mouth?
posted
Oh, and can we cut with the PWeb bashing? I mean, I don't post there either but others do. Jatraqueros made that place and many people there probably found it for the same reason most of us are at Hatrack. I remember when Amka, Adam and co. launched PWeb a few years ago and I remember them telling us all how much work they put in. Why slander the hell out of it? Just CUT IT OUT. It's not fair, warranted or nice. Just. Stop.
Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Lalo, when you say the smilies are like a gun among children I don't exactly understand what you mean. Exactly who is getting shot when they go off? They obviously aren't causing what you see as poor quality posts, so it's not like that could be an effect. It sounds to me like you've admitted that they really don't cause anything, they just are used more often than you want. Is this true or am I putting words in your mouth?
That's more or less what I've been saying from the beginning, Hobbes. When I say the existence of brightly colored, super-animated emoticons among certain people is like putting a gun among children, I mean that people are going to use and abuse those emotions just as surely as children are going to use the gun.
Getting rid of just a few of these emoticons would go a long way toward lessening the number of empty threads. While I've never been a fan of fluff, I'm not intolerant of it -- but lately, it seems fluff is all Hatrack is. Am I the only one disappointed by that, or is everyone willing to let Hatrack enter this decline and watch as Hatrack devolves from the special forum it once was to just another fluff forum, like every other forum online?
I was proud of "finding" this place, once. I was glad to be a member, and I looked forward to reading people's posts. Now, more often than not, I wonder if there's been a single interesting post worth time and attention. Maybe I'm finally becoming that dreaded adjective, mature, but it's so much more difficult to look forward to reading Hatrack when I know there'll just be pages upon pages of brilliance like (((Hobbes))) or *dances with Hobbes*. Am I alone in my disappointment?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
It seems to me that you can take an intiative to make this community what you want it to be. Just start threads you want to see and then you'll have topics you want to talk about. A community is as good as its members, just be the type of member you would want to have as the foundation of this community and it seems like it would solve your problems. Or maybe I just can't see how awful these smilies really are.
posted
It seems my response to Psycho Triad has been deleted. It wasn't rude or profane, so I'm assuming the moderators (Kristine?) deleted it because they're sick of discussion over the topic.
Ugh. Come to think on it, so am I. Since I realize the thread's little more successful than Sisyphus getting the boulder up the hill, I'm going to quit the argument. Here's hoping Hatrack doesn't entirely succumb to idiocy, and the intellectual aspect can survive despite the prevalence of very unique expressions of very unique emoticons.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
My mistake. I posted this in a different thread by mistake. Psycho Triad, this post was written before my 11:09 post and addressed to you.
quote:Not to say that i'm totally against what you've said. TheWave smilie has been slightly overused, and the random silliness has increased. But telling people to go away just because of it (meaning to another forum or whatever) is just plain rude. Bite your lip, suck it up, whatever. Just get over it.
So this is, what, the eleventh time I've said this?
There's no need for anyone to go away. If and when people continue posting pages of idiocy here, no doubt I'll ignore it as I always have and eventually let Hatrack fade out of my life, as others have. But I'm asking, I'm requesting that we get rid of a certain few emoticons. If people feel the need to make pretty faces, they can do it at P-Web -- which, while not to libel the place, seems a far more suitable place for less intellectual threads. If an opinion needs expression, or a question needs asking, I don't mind it being posted here, regardless of how I feel on it. What I do mind being posted are these seemingly endless fields of emoticons, which serve little purpose than simplistic amusement to the easily amused, and easy annoyance to the not so simplistic.
Is it so much to ask that people move the Last Post Thread -- the purpose of which seems to be observance of how long it can be made -- or the EIGHT SMILIES FOR EVERY POST thread to P-Web? Is it persecution? Is it harassment to ask them to move their very unique threads full of very unique expressions to a different forum, and use Hatrack more as a tool for actual opinions and thought?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I know I'm new on here and I'm not a very 'seasoned' Hatracker but I have lurked for quite some time on here and I must say that this board has more drama and irrelevant arguments about stupid tiny insignificant things than any I other message board I have seen. (And I am a member of several other boards on a viriety of subjects) When I went to the OSC signing in Portland he said that the people who read his books are automatically more civilized. I'm wondering if he would change his opinion if he saw certain threads like this. I can't believe that people are actually suggesting discrimination against emoticon users. Some people may not have seen it that way but when you get right down to it that is exactly what it is. For myself I don't mind the emoticons. They are simply a way for people to express themselves other than the plain text. I am also shocked to learn of the actual 'hierarchy' that has formed on this message board. We should remember that this is only a message board made for anyone who wants to express their opinions ideas or find a release. It is not made for people to form a dominion over the newbies or those who don't post as much. There is no rank that is determined by your number of posts or the date on which you joined. The only solution that can be reached is for people to grow up and attempt to be civil. Message boards are not intended for this kind of unnecessary drama.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I would just like to say that I prefer this thread INFINITELY more than a thread about how some teenager's parents suck or, say, a "post yourself nude!" thread.
I may not completely agree with Eddie on this one (especially after considering other's viewpoints,) but I'd still rather read this VERY rational discourse than a thread littered with insults and references to the weight and sexual preference of someone's mother.
Hatrack may not be my cup of tea anymore, but it's still a good place to go for clean discussion.
quote:If people feel the need to make pretty faces, they can do it at P-Web -- which, while not to libel the place, seems a far more suitable place for less intellectual threads.
If you have a complaint, Lalo, make your complaint without reference to pweb. What goes on here has nothing to do with pweb, and as long as you keep making remarks like that, you are "libeling" pweb.
posted
Hey, I solemnly promise I wouldn't abuse my power. Much. I mean, not TOO much. All the smilies would have to be little pictures of my actual face -- which is very round, I swear, so they wouldn't change an awful lot, except maybe by being a little less colorful or inclined to comical distress. But that's it.
There are REASONS why Hatrack has no governmental structure. The image of us oldbies running the place is about thirty of 'em.
The kids do a fine job of keeping the place light-hearted, and while smilies annoy the crap out of ME, it's not like the comic pages; there's no zero-sum space limit, where Ziggy means we can't have Opus.
So if SOME people still like Ziggy -- i.e. the hug thread -- they're welcome to it. The Internet keeps getting younger, and Scott is deliberately marketing his books to a younger audience, and young kids today DO have a slightly less literary slant to their online communication, so this is just one of those cases where I'm perfectly content to be curmudgeonly in a cheerfully impotent way, waving but not actually wielding the Crotchety Cane of Correction.
quote: I am also shocked to learn of the actual 'hierarchy' that has formed on this message board
You shouldn't be you lock 3 people in a room together an a hierarchy will form,
quote:When I went to the OSC signing in Portland he said that the people who read his books are automatically more civilized. I'm wondering if he would change his opinion if he saw certain threads like this.
No he wouldn't because if he did he would be an idiot.
quote:Message boards are not intended for this kind of unnecessary drama.
Yes mom we will behave now.
Posts: 1458 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:I think what we're seeing is the 'greying' of the 'serious' Hatrack population. Most of us have had certain arguments over and over again. We've heard what the other side has to say. So, there are less 'serious' threads because there is less need for them.
I would agree with this. I'd also like to hypothesize that Hatrack is reacting sort of like the country did after 9/11. Seeking a comic relief, in light of the tough times faced by our community members (everything from the war to the economy to the agressive posts of ex-Hatrackers.)
I miss coming to Hatrack to find out what's happening in the world. I miss Baldar vs Tom debates on economy and politics; Wolverine's unique take on everything; Eddie's staunch support of minorities and the environment.
I don't miss wondering if the real people behind these screen names have been hurt or have hurt someone else's self-image by a well-placed phrase.
IMO Change and cycles are not only okay, but facilitate growth. I think the only thing that would irrevocably un-make this community is if the Card's decided not to impose their subtle influence on the community's growth.
I don't post much anymore either. Not because I hate emoticons or object to the little shields around a screen name, but because hanging-out here is a luxury for me. And though I love the thought that I can reach-out and help a stranger through a hard time, my first responsibility is to my friends and family who claim first dibs on my time.
As far as Pat and Ralphie go, boy would I miss them. Pat is such a fixture and Ralphie is, IMO, the emodiment of the best of Hatrack. Super intelligent, slightly ironic, warm, funny and above all else, tolerant of other points of view.
Don't go away guys, the tide will change.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
"Message boards are not intended for this kind of unnecessary drama."
I missed this quote before, and I just have to say that it makes me almost miss the days when anyone who talked about a newsgroup or message board was referring to a BBS or USENET. I think I speak for all of us who remember USENET fondly when I say that message boards were pretty much created to be a home for this kind of unnecessary drama. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Hey, Luthe? Care to post substanitial opinions backed up by logical evidence, rather than merely post random insults, abreviated obscenities, and attacks on character? I may agree with (what I guess is) your point (that Lalo is being a bit rediculous in his smilie hating/putting down of smilie users) (is that your point?) but it doesn't mean you can be generally inflamatory like that.
Posts: 468 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Actually, Abrynne, while I get almost as annoyed by these self-policing threads as I do the smilies-gone-Godzilla-on-Tokyo threads, it is the fact that these self-policing threads exist that makes Hatrack more civilized than the various boards, web sites, Usenet groups, yahoo groups, heck, even political rallies, that I occassion. Unlike other boards, where a forum like this would normally be split into separate sub-boards (at least one for politics, another for just generally shooting the breeze, and probably another for computer stuff) we get a great cross-section of people here, all doing their thing, to various degrees of success, all under the umbrella of this boards explicit and implicit charters.
Other sites I've seen would have let a board like this end up super-moderated, either due to the site owner, or overwhelming user request; or moderation by favoritism; or the people would laugh and cast users like Eddie or rivka (as examples) into essential social banishment, since the general population wouldn't really care enough to listen to complaints and try to work it out themselves. Or people would get a little ticked and go off on someone and then leave, quickly forgotten as one in a long line of people.
Hatrack is more civilized than those boards. The mark of civilization to me is expressed by the extent with which a community will balance a defense of its symbols of community with a desire to expand and grow and add, modify and, if necessary, delete its symbols. Not just the moderators, nor oldbies, nor newbies, but all the community dwellers.
Anarchy is the total detachment of social responsibility; even the total detachment of the idea that such a responsibility is necessary in a place like this.
But this is also just a web board. The problem with things like this is that they require such a low level of effort to start into. That's also the solution.
Personally, I think Eddie's gone too far. The smilies are here to stay. The Hatrack community has become so large that no one can really know everyone anymore (heck, I thought deerpark had stopped posting months ago!). Or at least, too large for me. I mean I'm faily plugged in, as far as Jatraqueros are concerned. I know the lingo, been in para and AIM chat, sent emails to folks, IMed them, visited PWeb, Ornery, and a couple of the other Jatraquero-made boards. I've been to a Hatrack Picnic. Heck, I've even been known to read and post to that *other* board on this site (as well as participated in VBS and Hatrack 1830s, long ago) about that author-guy! As a result the community is no longer a subset of me, I'm a subset of it. I see that. I accept it. Not everyone can simply accept it, it agitates them so. I think them complaining (though I think one thread is sufficient) is fine, though disparaging is not (PWeb is cool by me).
There have been threads and users and posts that infuriate me; in the past, the present, and no doubt the future. So it goes. Some days, or even weeks, I find little I can add to. Some things bore me; some things seem awfully childish to me. Sometimes I go into a thread, knowing the discussion won't change a single mind, but put up the good fight, because I feel my 2 cents must be heard, even if only disregarded. Some times I am energized by new discussions.
I think I'll end here, I don't know what I'm supposed to write next.
posted
It's strange you would recruit the reputation of Pat to your argument of why smilies should be deleted as he is a chief abuser of multiple screen names. (not that I haven't done it, I just think it is a major detractor from the seriousness of the board.)
Back in March when I joined, and there was the "message from your Janitor" thread, I pointed out that the same factors pushing some folks out of hatrack were pulling others like myself in.
While I don't agree with you, Lalo, I have to admire your single minded determination to defy "the man" or at least "the man"'s wife.
Just one voice singing in the darkness
Dang. I'm sure Pat is better with Barry Manilow lyrics than myself.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I don't know if I still have standing to really say anything about the dynamics of this place, but, hey, Storm said something nice about me above, so even if I'm almost never here and most of the people now posting don't know who I am, that's gotta count for something.
One thing I find kind of ironic (and I say this with no ill-will) is that Pat and Ralphie are part of making an issue about this when a large part of the annoyingly not funny humor from - jeez - a long way back was their constant back and forths. I don't think anyone ever said anything, mainly because most of the people were inside the group that thought it was funny and most of the outsiders like me didn't really care.
I think we're seeing the formation of a new social group around here. It's been common to call people who visit this site jataqueros. For me, that served better as a label for a certain clique of people who were central to the social life of the forum, who were generally the only people to ever use the term. I think there's a new group of people who are forming a different type of social life. They generally seem to be on the younger side and they don't have a name yet, but I want to humbly suggest "The Smiley Brigade"...either that or "MrSquicky is so freakin' sweet!" Come on, it would look great on a t-shirt...or a coffe mug.
Anyway, I don't really like smilies. I think I may have used one once, because I was making a joke that could have totally been taken the wrong way and I wanted it clear that it was a joke. I'm not sure if I used it even then. I find the new ones more annoying because of the big animations and I wish that I could freeze them by pressing ESC like you could when they were first introduced. I don't generally frequent any of the Smiley Brigade threads, because I don't get anything out of them.
However, that's fine. I didn't get anything out of most of the jatraquero-centered threads. Or dobies, which I still regard the on-line equivilent to America's Funniest Home Video. (No seriously. I've been working on a Mozilla plugin to turn all dobie thread titles into Hans Moleman being hit in the groin with a football.)
The thing is, people do get something out of them. I say, more power to them. It doesn't bother me that people are doing things here that I don't enjoy. People always seem to be doing things that I don't enjoy, often to my girlfriend when I'm out of town...or in the other room.
I certainly didn't semi-leave Hatrack because of I wasn't interested in a majority of the threads here. It became for me an issue of putting in effort and not feeling like I was getting much back in return, which leads directly to the idea of quality.
Despite the golden age talk, I don't really think that there was ever an abundance of quality here in either humor or "serious" discussions. Not at least when I was around. Quite honestly - especially in regards to "serious" topics - I don't know how many people even agree with me as to my definition of quality.
I always hoped that Hatrack could develop into an intellectual community where I could come to learn new things and contribute to shared attempts to build something. At one time, I bent quite a bit of effort towards trying to foster that type of environment. I left(the first time) when I couldn't even sustain interest in a book discussion.
I'm not around now because people don't seem to desire the type of quality that I'm looking for. "Serious" in regards to topics seem to refer to those where people snipe at each other and it doesn't look like to me like anyone is working towards anything different. I'm not sure how many times it took of my trying to create an interesting topic that people could build together and have it receive as many single (often 2 or 3 line) responses as a post like "if ur a momron ur religon is stoopid!" got pages of responses. There just seems to be very little collaborative or explorative spirit at Hatrack and also little discrimination as to quality of people's arguments.
Ok, I'm going to put an end to the self-indulgent whining now. My main point is this. I don't think people leave because there is a lot of low quality stuff here (and almost all social bonding stuff is going to be low quality. Quality is a very much a secondary goal when you're doing social bonding and can even interfere.) I think they leave because there is little high quality stuff.
If you want to have a place that is not typified by people posting smilies at each other, the answer isn't to try and get people to stop doing that, but rather to provide something different. Posting high quality of your own is what will make people want to be around, not discouraging low quality.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
A demonstration of high quality posting...all I can say to that is MrSquicky is so freakin' sweet!
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Hatrack goes pretty much without any formal moderators, or well the ones we have don't have to do much. This is because there are a set of accepted social norms that are in use at hatrack. Hatrack is moderated by peer pressure, peers in this case being other hatrack members.
An example of this is back when I actually spent time here in Januaray after the first LotR movie came, many of the women here were somewhat taken with orlando bloom's character Legolas, and I post a link to a person's webpage who was claiming to be Legolas, this person had pictures of scantily clad women, on his webpage. This in turn pissed alot of people off, because some how nearly nude women, are far more objectable that a shirtless Elijah Wood. There was much talk of how our hosts might not like there site being used to promote what was, in some people's eyes porn. The relative merit of the link I posted is not the issue at hand, what is however is the reason I deleted that thread. I deleted it because people disliked the contents linked inside, not because anyone with any ability to actully do anything said anything.
This only works because of the power to delete or edit posts lasts forever, there have been members that have deleted or attempted to delete every post they ever made under a given user id since they foolishly choose there real name and did not want any prospective employers to find the posts. If I was without the ablity to delete my own thread, it would have festered and never died till the mods locked it.
Given this loose uncentralized form of moderation on this forum. Eddie's is attempting to stem the tide of what he sees as unacceptable behavior, by changing the popular opinion of the board. In this case I agree with him (this is a one time thing, I will strive to not let it happen again). This unacceptable behavior is manifested by the const over use of some of the newer graemlins. This is not the issue simply a symptom of it. The actually issue is the overwhelming number of fluf threads that are created, and the way they detract from the inteligent discussion that used to be present on this forum.
Solutions that have been suggested are for eddie to simply take the lead in posting more topics that he would like to discuss. This I am sorry to say will not work, the habit of many here at hatrack is to post links to the previous threads that have discusses the same or remotely simalar topic, killing the discussion in the new thread which promptly falls off the first two pages never to be seen again.
The only thing that will help there to be more meaningful stuff here is if people want that, I would think that jugding from the response to the two threads about the gay parade, that that is not what most people want. Most people seem content to leave hatrack as it is. With the signal to noise ratio so high there is damn little signal left, and what signal does make it through is corrupted by static. And that is sad.
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quote:quote: I am also shocked to learn of the actual 'hierarchy' that has formed on this message board
You shouldn't be you lock 3 people in a room together an a hierarchy will form,
Hierarchies of people will form regarless of the location as long as there are people around to form them. That anyone would be shocked to learn this just fooling themselves. It remains that anyone who has been here longer will have more power, more sway over the board wide opinion that moderates this place. There is nothing that anyone could do to change that. Removing the user id numbers and the post count would make it invisible, but would not change anything about how people listen to Tom D., or David B. Why? because anyone who has read these boards for any period of time will have learned that who can articulate there opinion through text efficently and who can make the precise arguments to make the conversation interesting, people know who they agree with most of the time, even if none of these things are ever said people will still know them even if the never admit them to themselves. By reading their post we have come to know the person, or the person that they present to the board.
Which brings me to hugs, a hug is act of affection between two people that is not nearly as intimate as a kiss. This "(((<receiver>)))" is not a hug, that is parens around a user name. A user name that represent, form most of us an unkown entiety. (While there are member of the board that have met, or otherwise know each other, I am assuming that they are the minority) If the near constant background noise about young girls being encouraged to meet perverted men in chat rooms is not sucfficent to make you at least wonder a little about anyone who you know only online, I do not know what is.
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quote: When I went to the OSC signing in Portland he said that the people who read his books are automatically more civilized. I'm wondering if he would change his opinion if he saw certain threads like this.
No he wouldn't because if he did he would be an idiot.
This is the truth, the relative merits of OSC's statement asside, this thread changes nothing. The Hatrack forums have been around for years, this is mearly one thread out of thousands.
The posts bitching at Eddie for his supposed mistreatment and damage to the Pweb reputation are some of the moderation by group that I was talking about earlier.
But in the end it is worth noting that Eddie has succeded in his goal if you wonder, if this pointless game, or request for accolades that you plan to post in the next days, really needs its own thread, or does it fit in with some of the other floatsam already drifting on the hatrack sea.
Posts: 1458 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
"I always hoped that Hatrack could develop into an intellectual community where I could come to learn new things and contribute to shared attempts to build something. At one time, I bent quite a bit of effort towards trying to foster that type of environment."
If you recall, Squick, I told you at the time -- in threads, and once in E-mail -- that this was kind of doomed to fail.
The reason, though, isn't that the people on Hatrack aren't intellectual enough, or aren't interested in Making; it's that, for almost all of us, the kind of Making you describe, and have always envisioned -- position papers, referendums, and debates littered with footnotes and hyperlinked definitions of psychological and sociological terms -- is not the kind of Making necessarily best-suited to an open discussion board.
Redskull tried this on Ornery, too -- and others have tried this since -- and it was a dismal failure there, as well. For the same reason. And that reason is this:
In a forum chat environment, people are unnerved and even slightly irritated by people who take themselves seriously. Even if that person means well, it's IMPOSSIBLE to avoid sounding pompous. It's like the kid in the cafeteria back in high school who sat at that one card table with the "Save Africa: Donate Your Milk Money" banner.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think Eddie may have put it in a way that offends people, but there is soomething to the idea that Hatrack is/was/can be the middle ground. There are people who are offended because Eddie put down PWeb. There are people who are offended because Eddie put down smilies and silliness. Soon somebody will put down Ornery, and some people will be offended. Can I be the first to say that Navou stinks?
Is it possible to convey, without giving offense, the thought that silliness is very popular at PWeb--much as seriousness is the norm at Ornery? And not so much that any people or any threads or posts should leave here and go to any other forum, but that many of us like Hatrack being a middle ground, where there is some seriousness and some silliness, and some personal stuff as well, and would like it to continue to strike that sort of balance?
If I have failed and given offense, then please accept my apologies and believe me when I say that I am not trying to be insulting.
quote:I always hoped that Hatrack could develop into an intellectual community where I could come to learn new things and contribute to shared attempts to build something. At one time, I bent quite a bit of effort towards trying to foster that type of environment. I left(the first time) when I couldn't even sustain interest in a book discussion.
Irami tried this too. It does not work.
Not in the least because you were trying to create a world where you think you thrive. Changing the rules of social engagement to one which fits your own social inclinations. More power to you for trying, but people change social habits when it brings something to them, not for the sake of altruism.
In other words, if you are going to ask people to change, there needs to be a reason.
It's like saying "I dissaprove of you. Change to [this] so I will approve of you." When there is no initial relationship, it won't happen. When there is an initial relationship, it is manipulative and destructive.
You have to accept people for who they are. They won't change for you.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm new around here so my opinion may not mean much but I have to respond. I find it interesting that the person who is doing all the complaining about "serious" threads being in jeopardy would post a profile like this.
Now perhaps this is your real proffession but more than likely it is good natured humor and fun. And hey, good natured humor and fun is all good, in smilie form or writen form. Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
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). They're distracting - and as Frisco pointed out elsewhere, most of them are essentially a pictorial representation of a phrase, not an expression of emotion. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
" or something. Now, that can be (and often is) followed up by fifteen different variations on the same theme involving various (all and sundry) new smilies. It encourages people to just click the smilie they want a few times rather than respond carefully to posts.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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