a ban on all religious symbols in school? to put it bluntly, this really pisses me off. to me, this only promotes discrimination, and is an unfair and unrealistic pressing to conformity.
if i were a student in france i'd march right in with my yarmulke, my headscarf, my giant cross pendant, and anything else i could find. and prompty get expelled.
posted
Anna, what is the general sentiment about this among the French public? To the American eye it generally seems unreasonably repressive, judging from both my own opinion and those of the other people I've talked to about this (who span a fairly broad range of political viewpoints).
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This policy is the logical extrapolation of their previous socialist policies. Individualism is dangerous to them.
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OSC's latest "War Watch" column on the main page discusses the French policy, including his proposals for an appropriate response (if he lived in France).
quote:If America ever had such a revolting law as this one that's being considered right now in France, I would encourage my own children and all my friends' families as well to purchase scarves for the girls and yarmulkes for the boys.
It's the last part of the article. You have to wade through some commentary on the Dem presidential contenders first.
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So, are they going to be issuing gold stars for people to wear in the effort to enforce French secularism? Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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First of all - I think it's possible to discuss this issue calmly without resorting to name-calling and nationalistic slander. Calling the French "stupid frogs" is insulting, and you forget that we have several intelligent French jatraqueros in our midst.
Secondly, we had a rather good discussion on this point here before the issue had gone through parliament.
posted
Raeghar I don't exactly know the general feeling about this. A majority is in favor of this law, but not a big one anyway (about 56%). We discussed that before on this forum, and I will try to tell my point of view again : all this stroy did go too far. This was first a material problem (accidents with veils in machines in technology lessons, girls refusing to go to their sport lessons because they wear such a dress they can't run...) and that became an enormous and ridiculous story. But I have to add that I found OSC quite offensive and insulting towards all French and not only the ones in favor of this ridiculous law in War Watch. Try not to see us as one, agreeing with all that happens here, please. As I try to do when the American government takes decisions that do not please me.
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(Comment: I think Rhaegar just feels compelled to live up to his screen name. )
Anna,
I agree that OSC went over the top on his rant about the French in general (it's not the first time he's done something like that in this column.), and I should have said something about it. Considering the number of people who don't seem to support the proposed law, it would seem that a campaign similar to the one that OSC described would be an effective one. And maybe help build some bridges in the process.
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Well, not as big as that, but there is a campain like that. A lot of girl, muslim or not, started to wear a veil in school. Only thing is, there's not much publicy around that. I only know because there's a public school near my bus stop (the one I'm working for is Catholic, so...) and heard about that, so I asked around me and there are a lot of girls doing that in all France.
[ February 03, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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Slightly off subject, but does anyone else want to create a law that will not allow Annie and Anna from posting in the same thread?
Its freaking confusing for silly people like me.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.
I think we can all agree that any generic bashing that needs to be done on this law needs to be against one nortoriously arrogant, ignorant, and stupid group of people--politicians.
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I don't know how you measure power, but I would be more modest than you in that ranking. As for popularity, I have written that off long ago.
As far as the French go, they may yet have some individualistic spark left in them, unless the 30 hour work week and 6 weeks of paid vacation has stomped it out.
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We work 35 hours a week, and it's just a theory for a lot of persons. By the way, I'm not the same person as Annie, and I like to post in the same threads because she's clever and knows a lot about France so I can discuss with her without being called Frog. Proof : AnnaAnnie . Also if we had avatars like on GRENME or Sakeriver, maybe it wouldn't be that confusing
[ February 04, 2004, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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My mistake. The point being, your government dictates how you are to live your life. The US government does the same thing, only to a lesser degree.
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quote: The US government does the same thing, only to a lesser degree.
...and with fewer benefits, and without guaranteeing union protection, and they make you pay for your own healthcare...
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Not having a home can also kill you. Not having food can kill you. Not having a job can cause lack of the above and kill you that way.
Yet when the government tries to solve these problems, it makes them much much worse. The Soviet Union was an expiriment in government run economy, and it was a spectacular failure, I don't understand why you want such a calamity to befall the people of America.
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Robes, different country, different culture, different values. Let it lie. Not everyone considers income tax theft.
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Wouldn't be the first time. Easy way to tell me and Raia apart: she's younger and much cuter. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: First of all - I think it's possible to discuss this issue calmly without resorting to name-calling and nationalistic slander. Calling the French "stupid frogs" is insulting, and you forget that we have several intelligent French jatraqueros in our midst.
True, but Rhaegar is a Bush-supporting "I'm-angry-at-the-French-for-disagreeing-with-us" sort of person. He is just misplacing anger at our two friendly French Hatrack members. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Nick, when referring to him, do you think we should use Rhaegar's screen name, in its entirety, out of respect? Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm not going to do that because it's not worth it to me. To be honest, I don't think you should either. I don't think he made the name thinking he was foolish when he joined Hatrack, and I don't think calling him a fool will help anybody.
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quote:A majority is in favor of this law, but not a big one anyway (about 56%).
quote:Excerpt from a CNN Article: A poll published Wednesday, showed the majority of French people side with Chirac. The poll published in the Paris daily Le Parisien showed 69 percent favor a law banning the wearing of head scarves and other religious symbols.
When I first read an article which discussed this ban, I had trouble accepting that the article was real. Perhaps I am too idealistic, but the idea that France would pass an act which is so clearly discriminatory - in actuality if not in intent - was so outrageous to me that I simply couldn't believe it was really true. Whether the percentage of those in favor is 56% or 69% is immaterial; either percentage is too much. In fact, even a 25% backing would be too much! If a religion requires that its members wear a certain kind of dress, then a law forbidding the wearing of religious dress is clearly discriminatory against those religions. Perhaps some of the French people who are in favor of the law simply don't realize that certain kinds of religious dress are required, but even so, the fact that a majority of the French people are showing relgious discrimination is, to put it bluntly, frightening.
Furthermore, the excuse given for the ban is absurd. Secularism does not promote religous equality; it promotes a lack of religion altogether. France's goal of "secularism" is frighteningly close to the USSR's ban on all religions. No, France will never - in the current political climate and environment, at least - actually ban religion, but banning specific relgious "commandments" is just a scaled-down version of the same idea.
If the headscarves are dangerous in certain classes, that ban the students from those classes. If the girls cannot participate in certain gym activites due to their clothing, so be it! And how exactly are yarmulkas dangerous? Actually, they are dangerous in France today; they put their wearers in danger of being attacked - but a country has no right to try to do away with religious persecution by banning religion.
Personally, I believe that anyone religious enough to be affected by this law should be attending a private religious school in any case, but the government cannot require this without being guilty of religious discrimination.
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Nick, you're right. It came out meaner than it sounded when I played it out a few times. Should have looked at it a bit more before I hit send.
I just get taken aback by simplistic name-calling. I disagree with lots of people here and vice-versa. The ones I like best are the ones who argue their positions without getting personal and nasty.
I'll try to live up to that myself.
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I just find the word Frog as insult oddly amusing, thats all, and I just hope for a chance to use it, because well, its so absurd its funny, not because of what it means, but because someone was stupid enough to come up with it as an insult. I don't have any major problems with the French personally, I dont particularly like them, but I dont hate em, sorry for any offense given.
quote:When the government runs all the schools, hospitals, etc, there aren't many private places left.
You'll notice I said private religious schools - and there are most definitely private religious schools in France. If France went so far as to refuse medical treatment to someone who was wearing a religious symbol and refused to remove it, I think that they would be sinking to levels fast approaching Communist Russia and Nazi Germany - or Vichy France, to use an even closer comparison.
You'll also notice that my post was strictly against the ban; I included my personal feelings about very religious people attending public schools in general simply because I believe that is an argument that some use in favor of the ban, and I wanted to point out that even if someone's personal belief is that highly religious people are better off attending their own religious schools, that is no justification for forcing people to make such a decision.
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(As promised, I'm transferring posts from the temporary thread on the other side.)
Anna said:
quote: To Robespierre: The government is far from ruling all schools and hospitals. Point is, the private schools and hospitals are mostly Catholic. There are very few Muslim schools. And I think this would be the answer, yes. Because all of you react as if the law forbid the scarf any time. It is not the case, it will only be in public schools. It's still too much for me, but please take that in mind
posted
Anna, I think the concern about a ban on religious articles in a public school is twofold. Firstly, it is a public institution, paid for, I assume, by public funds? Why should my taxes (speaking as a theoretical French citizen) go to support an institution that this law ensures I cannot attend. (You may say that I can, if I choose to violate my religion's dictates. I say that is no choice.)
But the issue that concerns me more is the ATTITUDE that such a law implies. I had a lovely time in France, not far from Paris, the summer I was 16. I have many friends who are French, both online and IRL.
But I would not travel to France now. I would feel far too unsafe. That saddens me greatly.
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I feel uneasy about what you said. Because I feel the current debate and law coming from the government, not from French People. Oh, maybe they agree (but can we trust what people said one day in the street when it was cold to a guy who asked them a bunch of questions?) but it wasn't a people initiative. Which makes a difference.
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Then where is the outrage from the people of France? Where are the people crying out, "This cannot be allowed to happen here!"?
And actually, this ban has little or nothing to do with my feeling unsafe. That has more to do with the rate of anti-semitic crimes in France in the past 2-3 years. In 2003, the rate of such occurrences went down in most of Europe -- except in France, where it rose, drastically.
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You're right. But do people in America really react against the fact that for the same crime, a black guy has more chances to be executed than a white guy ?
[ February 06, 2004, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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Banning scarves and yarmulkes in public schools just sets of Holocaust klaxons in my head. That and the statistics rivka mentioned.
quote:You're right. But do people in America really react against the fact that for the same crime, a black guy has more chances to be executed than a white guy ?
Does everyone? No. But there's a great deal of us that do, and loudly, too.
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