posted
The working mom that is striving to make a better life for herself and for her kids. Because of her salary they can afford a lot of things they wouldn't otherwise have - dance classes for the kids, vacations in Disney World, a quickly-growing college fund. Personally, she's fulfilled by her work and enjoys it, and knows if she quit to stay home with the kids all day she'd go stark, raving mad. The family is best served by her working. She contributes to the economy, and she's a great example for what a woman can do if she puts her mind to it. She has little respect for her stay at home mom neighbor, the woman complains how hard her job is because she watches her kid and does chores - doesn't she have the same list of chores, and after a full day of work, at that. What does the woman have to complain about? More than likely, she doesn't do her chores because she's sitting around watching tv soap operas. Her kids would be better off in daycare, they'd get more stimulation and be with kids they're own age.
Contrast that with the stay-at-home Mom who believes that dance classes, Disney trips, and an Ivy League education don't make up for years in the care of underpaid strangers. That a mother's love is beyond any price. Personal fulfillment doesn't come from a paycheck, but from the smile on her child's face. Why should some stranger see the baby's first steps? Why should some stranger be the one to introduce her child to the joys of a sunny day and singing birds and the smell of fresh cut grass? The working Mom next door is going to have her hands full when those kids grow to be teenagers, when they have no respect for the mom who cared more about her career advancement than her children. She'll come to regret it when those kids are in jail, or when they get involved in drugs. Then again, she's so busy she'll hardly notice.
Those are stereotypes, naturally. Most women who work don't do so just for the fancy facations or the luxury cars, but to put food on the table. Many are single moms with no choice.
Many stay at home Moms don't sit in the grass each day and blow bubbles with their kids contemplating how wonderful life is, either.
Why do you think women get so polarized on the issue? Do you think either side of my fictional debate has valid points?
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Women are only pitted against each other in a pointless competition for non-existent approval by "The Man" to keep them all powerless.
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Is it just me or are women particularly prone to feelings of jealousy and competition? Maybe I'm wrong. I know men feel that too. But this working mother/stay-at-home mother debate sure seems to get more hurtful than it needs to.
I am glad that the idea of being a stay-at-home mom has seemed a little more respected lately. I think it is dumb to think that you are only a worthy citizen if you make money. I have often thought that when my kids are all in school I might do something OTHER than enter the workforce. I might do volunteer work. I might go back to school. I don't know.
I sure feel disrespected sometimes though.
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There are such things as Stay at Home Dads. Perhaps they should be included in this discussion.
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Belle, I went around and around on this trying to answer the part about "who's more valued by society."
I tried putting the question in the male gender and I think the answer is clear: society values working dads, not stay at home dads.
But the truth is that I think society values both types of mom. My mother was a working mother and took all kinds of cr@p from the stay-at-home moms in the neighborhood. A generation later, I don't think a single girl from that neighborhood grew up to be a stay-at-home mom. No-one could afford to... or so it seemed then.
Now, people are re-evaluating that decision and thinking that, as you said, the extra money isn't the same as having mom around 24/7, at least when the kids are too young to be in school.
But the stay-at-home mom is valued AS a stay-at-home mom, not as a member of the workforce. When she goes back to work after the family's youngest hits preschool, she's almost certain to be looking for a low-end job, parttime, with no benefits.
As the kids age, she'll still want to be out of the office in time to be home before the kids get there (3:00 pm...some days 1:00 pm...), so she stays parttime. This goes on until High School, right?
So, her value in society is affected by her low-value in the workforce. Everyone knows that she'll leave work at the first hint of one of her kids needing her. It's a commitment she's made clear and it's respected now more than ever, I think. But it's not respected inside the workforce.
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Just want to point out that the working mom described by Belle leaves out the working moms who have to work just to put food on the table and pay the rent, with little or no money left over for extras.
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I've been on both sides. I was a working mother with two young children before I became a stay at home mother with four.
I will submit that anyone who thinks they know what it's like to be a stay at home parent without having actually done it - needs to really think carefully before they cast any judgments. Because I think staying home is much, much harder than working.
Those that work, do you know that feeling when you're in the car on the way home? With me, I always turned up the radio and sang, it helped transfer me from the working me to the wife and mommy me. When I walked in the door, I relaxed. Yeah, there was still a lot to do. Dinner to make, kids homework to look over, but hey - I was HOME. I wasn't at work.
NOw, I never get that feeling anymore. I can't go home. I can't ever "get off work". No matter where I look, there are more things to be done. Along with that is a sense of guilt - I was home all day I should have shampooed the carpet instead of just vacuuming it.
I miss talking to adults. I miss discussing what was happening in the pharmaeutical market. I missed someone asking me for some information, and waiting for me to provide it, and then making a million dollar decision on my word alone. I missed that sense of responsibility and accomplishment. Now, the most important question I get asked during the day is "Mommy, I can have some milk?"
I feel guilty for not being a good enough SAHM. I feel guilty for missing the old professional me. And yet, overriding all that is the sense of relief that my kids are here with me and not in daycare. I've seen the change me being home had on my older children. I see them come in from school, their faces full of what happened that day. The day Natalie came home to tell me they came in 2nd in the state in quiz bowl, I was here to share that triumph. The day one of her classmates mother died, I was here to comfort her and let her talk it out. In neither case would I have been as effective if she'd been at an after-school daycare for three hours before she saw me.
So, I think being home for my kids is more important than any other consideration, be it financially or just my personal desire to "do something" I won't even consider going back to work until the twins are in public school, and even then I intend to only work part-time so I can be home when they get home.
edited for clarity
[ March 02, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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quote:Those are stereotypes, naturally. Most women who work don't do so just for the fancy facations or the luxury cars, but to put food on the table. Many are single moms with no choice.
quote: not more respect. Just some. Or the same amount.
I have to ask, why? You are happy with your choice, your children are happy, I assume your husband is happy, and I'm guessing your church approves.
Who else matters? It doesn't matter if the universe approves/disapproves. The individuals that make up that universe are busy staring at and fretting about themselves.
posted
The only person whose respect I ultimately care about is no respecter of persons. Though I do forget that pretty often. I hear what you're saying, Belle, I've done both and I know what you mean by "I can't go home".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I think this isn't such a big deal today as it was before. I hear so many women's groups, for instance, reaffirming their belief that mothering is a valuable role in society, whereas when I was growing up, it was what women were being liberated FROM.
I think we've got some maturity and perspective on the issue as a society. I think most people recognize that the real liberation was deciding that women had the option to be whatever they wanted in society and that they had the power to choose.
Doing both (or having it all)... I still think is seen as the great desiderata. But I think people also have come to realize that something's gotta give. You can't be everything without some kind of support network.
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quote:I have to ask, why? You are happy with your choice, your children are happy, I assume your husband is happy, and I'm guessing your church approves.
Why should you care if people think mormons are cultists? Why should gays care if people don't give their lifestyle choice any respect?
People get offended for a lot of different reasons. The attitude that sahm's don't do anything, are usually poorly educated and stay home because they can't find good paying jobs, the idea that sahm's are "setting the women's movement back", those things are offensive to me on some level.
In the scheme of things, it's not the thing I fret about most, but it does bother me some and I think it's a bit disingenuous for you to suggest it shouldn't, when you aren't the one that deals with it.
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Who is this society that is valueing and devalueing women. Is it men? Is it other women?
I know which ones the children value more, until it comes time for a toy that can't be afforded. Only then might a child say he wished his mother worked like Johny's mother does.
I know as a child I valued my working mother. I also valued the mother across the street that basically adopted the whole neighborhood.
Too this day I do not value or devalue a woman by what role she plays in society, only on how she behaves is society.
Now if you take your clues from society from TV, then you will find that working mothers are prefered. That is because working mothers have more money to spend on advertisers.
Yet I am not a mother, working or unworking, so it is not my place to pass judgement on the signifigance of this debate.
I just want to say I respect the working woman, whether she pumps gas at Quicktrip, teaches at Patton Armored Junior High, or works raising her children and taking care of her home.
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I know I don't deal with this issue in particular, but I can comment on the larger issue of worrying about what society thinks of my life choices. My theory is that no one gets a say unless they are willing to share the consequences in a way that I can feel their personal support. Faceless, anonymous society in no way qualifies for this.
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Hey, Belle. It is totally understandable to miss what you were doing before. There is much to be enjoyed there. Motherhood is 24/7 on-call work. When I can take brakes is really flexible, but this work is on call and often gets me out of bed at night. Porter, who has employment to worry about, can not be as committed to these efforts. The important thing is that you believe in what you are doing now. When things feel stifling, I find releases like Hatrack and the internet in general make life better.
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I have to say I always wonder how families where both parents work even survive. When do they do the chores, and go grocery shopping, and get their cars fixed, and stuff? On Saturdays? So, when do they ever relax?
As a SAHM, I feel lucky that I can stay home. (Not that I could earn enough to cover daycare, I guess--I'm a librarian.) I can run things so that our family life is calm and managed, and we can relax together. I feel more lucky that I live in an area (and in a sub-culture, religion-wise) where staying home is still valued and I have plenty of company. I have actually never had someone ask me what I do and then react negatively to the news that I stay home with my girls. But hey, they're small; just give me some time.
However, overall, in American society mothers traditionally take the blame for whatever goes wrong. Whatever we do, we can't really win, and that is still going on a hundred years or more after society decided that the 'angel in the house' was a spiffy ideal.
It's too bad that so many women wind up at each other's throats over this. We are all moms: trying to do the best we can with what we have for our families. We need more support for each other, not an erosion of what little there is.
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kat, do you think I'm worried about faceless society?
I'm worried about the members of my family who call and say they need to drop off their kids with me because "I have an appt. and my wife needs to work today, so we thought you could watch them."
The women at dance class who make remarks about how it must be nice not to have any obligations, so I can sign my kids up for a 3:30 class instead if a 6:30.
The government that gives tax breaks to people for putting their kids in daycare but not one for me to raise my kids myself.
The family members and church members who automatically assume I have time to do the most demanding and time consuming job needing done, because I "don't work"
Most of all - my self. My biggest concern in this is that I buy into some of it - I let it influence me even when I know I shouldn't. I've tried a myriad of different ways to make money from home, all because I thought I should be "contributing". When people ask me what I did I would always say "I stay home with the kids BUT I also....."
It angers me that somehow, somewhere, something has influenced me to the point that even when I know and have plenty of evidence that being home is the best thing for my kids, I can't even convince myself 100%.
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quote:I have to ask, why? You are happy with your choice, your children are happy, I assume your husband is happy, and I'm guessing your church approves.
Who else matters? It doesn't matter if the universe approves/disapproves. The individuals that make up that universe are busy staring at and fretting about themselves.
I agree with you, Kat. I have always laughed about the woman at my high school reunion, a high-powered lawyer, who basically blew me off when I told her I was a stay-at-home mom. But then, I have always had a support system of like-minded women. I think that is very important.
quote:It angers me that somehow, somewhere, something has influenced me to the point that even when I know and have plenty of evidence that being home is the best thing for my kids, I can't even convince myself 100%.
Okay. That would concern and anger me too.
My only suggestion is for you to employ on the world, uh, mack's favorite emoticon.
---
Ela, I believe that. That a support system is desperately, vitally necessary. It isn't that I'd need their approval, but that I'd need that sense of community.
quote:I'm worried about the members of my family who call and say they need to drop off their kids with me because "I have an appt. and my wife needs to work today, so we thought you could watch them."
Just because you are a SAHM doesn't mean you have unlimited time to watch other peoples' children, even children of family members. Don't let them take advantage of you. It is ok to say, sorry I can't do that today. If you can, and you don't mind, that's fine, but if it's an imposition, don't be afraid to say no.
quote:The women at dance class who make remarks about how it must be nice not to have any obligations, so I can sign my kids up for a 3:30 class instead if a 6:30.
People who make remarks like that have no class, IMHO, and you don't have to respond to them. Sometimes you just have to ignore stuff, even though it hurts.
This isn't exactly the same thing, but I lost a friend when I was going through depression, because she just couldn't understand what was happening with me. Among the unsympathetic remarks she made was this one: "You're lucky you can afford therapy, I could never afford to go to a therapist." If I had cancer, would she say I was lucky I could afford to go to a doctor?!!
quote:The government that gives tax breaks to people for putting their kids in daycare but not one for me to raise my kids myself.
This bothered me too, but there's not much you can do about it.
quote:The family members and church members who automatically assume I have time to do the most demanding and time consuming job needing done, because I "don't work"
Again, you can't let people take advantage of you. It's okay to say no, if you can't do it, and this is something I had to learn too, whether it was volunteer work for the school, the synagogue, or other charitable organizations I have been involved with.
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Today is not the day for me to be posting on the subject, because my brother is dropping off his six year old and his three year old.
Because he has somewhere to be until 8:00 and his wife was planning on working until 8:00. Daycare closes at six.
I love my nephew and my niece. And my brother and my sister-in-law. But....I don't get this. If both parents are working until 8:00, someone might need to re-evaluate some priorities somewhere.
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Gah! Don't remind me. i need to do laundry too. And the dishes. And figure out how to feed six kids when I havne't been to the store in three days.
quote:The women at dance class who make remarks about how it must be nice not to have any obligations, so I can sign my kids up for a 3:30 class instead if a 6:30.
This is actually the faceless society I meant. Woman at dance class has opinion? Does she have a stake? I mean, if you changed your life, would it affect anything of hers other than her opinion?
Probably not. Therefore, the opinion doesn't matter. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think that the first thing needed to answer your initial question, Belle, is to ask another: which segment of society are we asking? Society is too broad and deep (well, as far as opinions are concerned, I guess ) to have a single answer to that question.
And I don't think it's just women who get polarized on that issue; I've known men who get pretty upset or at least argumentative over it, too. But that's a different question, after all.
I think women get so polarized over this issue for reasons beyond simple human cantankerousness. Let's face it, until recently (some would say continuing today) women have been second-class citizens in virtually every society on Earth when it comes to anything except strictly domestic issues. Even in domestic concerns, in many cultures when a major domestic concern comes up, men still have had favoritism. But for a variety of reasons, things changed or are changing. Not just women, but most everyone, has come to realize that they (women) aren't second-class citizens fit only to be chained to the oven, but can be as capable and intelligent and ambitious as men can be.
I think this sort of thing breeds self-conciousness in any group, or on behalf of any group. Women, recognizing past (and present) discrimination and second-class citizenship, have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to their roles in the modern world. And even though that phrase implies criticism, I don't mean it that way at all. History, both long-past and living-memory, has led women to be sensitive on this issue. There's a lot of self-worth wrapped up today in what one does for a living, or what one's career or occupation is.
People frequently feel better about their own position in anything by putting down other people's position in anything. I personally think any individual putting down someone without knowing their circumstances and level of success in whatever field they've chosen is a fool. As has been mentioned, a working-mother has the chance to be an even better mother than a stay-at-home-mom, and it sometimes happens that a stay-at-home-mom brings home even more bacon than a working mother.
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Oh, and re: faceless societal criticisms of one's lifestyle...
I think giving it emotional weight in one's life is a mistake, but then again I am certainly irritated by it when it happens in my life, and that doesn't touch on areas nearly as personal as this one.
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Don't take any criticism from anyone. They don't understand what it's like... either way it's stressful. I, being single and childless have little idea of it, but I can imagine either way, coming home after a stressful day of work (Unlike the commercials, most women who work are not running around in powersuits but have all kinds of jobs, like this one woman I know who has about 5 kids and has to work at the grocery store) being on your feet you still have to feed and take care of the kids! Or, as someone said, not being able to take a break, children can be frustrating at times. The people who criticise and make remarks do not understand! It's difficult for everyone, for the mother who can't take off if her child is sick or the other who might not have enough money for extras. You just can't win. Instead of fighting over it and people name calling, why not find ways to make things easier for working mothers and stay at home mothers who are just trying to do the best they can for their kids?
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Although I am single and childless I have an idea what your talking about becuase I don't beleive society knows what it values anymore. My grandmother taught my mother that she had to be pretty to keep a man. My mother rebelled against this and always told me that I should go to college and be able to support myself. So, I went to college and now I have a great career and can totally support myself and she says, "Have you met anyone?" What does she want?! The point is, I think society has changed too fast in the last 20 or so years to keep up with itself. And the women who make comments about SAHMs are more than likely just feely guilty because they can't take their kids to dance at 3:30. I know my mom had a lot of guilt. (tip to working mothers: your kids know you're feeling guilty too, and they know how to take advantage of it)
Posts: 48 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:I have to say I always wonder how families where both parents work even survive. When do they do the chores, and go grocery shopping, and get their cars fixed, and stuff? On Saturdays? So, when do they ever relax?
That's what retirement is for.
I've done both and I can absolutely say that that my kids get more undivided attention from me when I'm working than when I'm a SAHM.
As Belle said, when you're a SAHM, you never leave work. You may settle down to color with the kids or blow bubbles in the yard for a bit each day, but then the phone rings or the dryer buzzes and you're pulled away.
As a working mom, I appreciate the time with my kids as a break, a mini vacation, at the end of the day and they get all of me. I don't take phone calls, I don't make evening plans with girlfriends, and I don't do housework until after they're in bed. I just spend time with my boys.
Nothing confounds me more than the mom who picks-up her child from school at 3pm and has him to bed before 8pm. How can she be content with only 5 hours, especially when at least one of those hours is spent on homework? But that's just me. I look at putting the kids to bed at 8pm as utterly discretionary and a simple attempt to grab some me time. Of course, this confounds me because my kids and I play/hang out until 11pm and I would feel cheated if I had to give-up those three hours a night.
I resent the SAHMs who assume that just because they're at home, that their kids are somehow better "mothered" and that the choice to stay at home is proof of their commitment to raising their children "right". I know many a SAHM whose kids are very unpleasant and many who drop the kids on my doorstep Saturday morning because our house is a good place to be. Yet, I know many a SAHM whose kids are sweet, bright and well-mannered. These same women are tough, brilliant and equally at home in the boardroom and singing the "Rollie Pollie Ollie" song.
The exact same thing can be said of the working moms I know.
Proof of commitment to raising your children is in REALLY being with them and HEARING them during every moment you are with them. It not a matter of hours spent with, as much as attention given to, the children.
I think that it’s a mistake to assume that because you’ve chosen to stay at home you are automatically a better mother. Just as it’s a mistake to assume that the SAHM is not doing work worthy of a paycheck.
Working or not working is a choice that each mother must make based on what works best for her economical and emotional needs. Being a mother doesn’t dictate or preclude either choice. You can have it all, have a little of both or just be truly lousy at both. The only people who get to vote on whether or not you’ve done well are you and your kids.
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Well, I'm back online now. My niece and nephew left at 10:15.
Poor kids, it's an hour's drive home and then they both have to be up at six to either catch the bus (the oldest) or be taken to daycare (the younger one)
Icarus said in another thread, you can tell me I'm a lousy person and we'll deal with it, but tell me I'm a lousy parent and my dander goes straight up. (paraphrasing, too tired to go grab the quote)
I think I know the reason - none of us is confident we are the best parent we can be. When I was working I was guilty for not spending enough time with them. Now that I'm home, I feel guilty for not contributing financially. I'm never satisfied with my parenting, I think it can always be better. And because of that, I'm a lot more sensitive to criticism on that subject, because I have my own fear and self-doubts to cover for.
So yeah, I will get defensive even when total strangers judge my choices and/or my abilities as a parent. One, because I think I'm right - I think what I'm doing now is the correct thing and that my kids are better for it. Two, because I'm insecure about other aspects of my parenting. Staying home with them might be right, but what about my decisions about what to feed them each day, about where to send them to preschool, about what dance class or gymnastics class to put them in (or whether they should take anything at all) Three, it's a subject I just care too damn much about. You won't find me this defensive over much anything else, except my religion, because my kids and my marriage are the most important things to me after my relationship with God.
So, sure, you're probably right and I should ignore everyone. But it's not that easy. Right or wrong, it DOES get to me when I see people who are obviously judgmental about the way I live my life and the choices I make for my kids.
Someone mentioned a support network - yeah, that would be nice. However, when you live in an area predominantly made up of two income parents, and you have two small toddlers - where are you going to go for that support network? There is literally only two other women who stay home in my entire subdivision. Both of those have kids that are all at school age already. There is no one else at home with preschoolers like I am. No one in my circle of friends at church stays home.
It's a little difficult to go somewhere with two toddlers in order to meet with friends. And if you do go somewhere you can meet and talk with other moms, who is watching the kids? If you're trying to watch the kids at the same time, you don't really get a chance to talk to each other.
I'm not whining - it's a privilege for me to be able to stay home. I relish it even when I want so badly to run away some days. But, I just want some of you to see that "Just ignore everyone and join a support group!" is advice much more easily thrown out there than implemented.
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I just remembered something. When the twins were born, I joined a mothers of twins group. I never went to a single meeting.
I started getting their newsletter at home, and there were all sorts of things that looked wonderful. A new mother's coffee where you could bring your babies, sit and have coffee and talk about your experiences with other new moms of twins. Outings to restaurants with playgrounds, so the kids could play and moms talk. Monthly get togethers, without kids.
So why didnt' I go to any? Each and every outing for kids was age specific - I couldn't bring my toddler with me. The twins weren't the only children I had, when they were born I had a two year old at home too. The new mothers coffee was for infants under six months only. Older siblings were specifically prohibited from accompanying you. The restaurant outings, same story. The monthly meetings - no childcare provision and my husband has a job with shift work. They met at 6:30 which is fine if you have a husband who will be home at 5:30 to watch the kids for you, but not if you have one that works a schedule like mine does.
It's just as bad now, but in the reverse - I've missed several functions at my older daughter's school I would have liked to have been part of, but I wasn't allowed to bring the twins - no younger siblings allowed. *shakes head*
So, support networks aren't that easy to plug into when you have multiple young children.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Speaking from personal experience, aside from the supportive people here at Hatrack, this SAHD gets respect from only some SAHMs, and some parents who wish they were SAHs, and nobody else. And some of the respect is more lip service than anything else.
Maybe my frustration level regarding this is a little higher because while I love being a SAHD, it wasn't our plan. The company I worked for went bankrupt, and I haven't been able to find another job that pays well enough to offset daycare costs. Well, I was offered one some time ago, but even through my interview process I could tell the company was sleazy.
The plan was for me to get regular raises/promotions/etc., until I was making enough for Mama to be a SAHM. That's what she wants to do. I'd love to afford her that option. So a lot of the time I have very little respect for myself, not because I am a SAHD, but because I'm not employed.
My time with my sons is far more work, hour for hour, than any job I've ever had. Even managing at Sears on its worst days was only break-even. I feel tired all the time (though I try to remember to say I feel fatigued, because it's more apt to draw out sympathy rather than complaints that I'm whining), and at times barely have energy to chew and swallow food.
But the rewards are incredible, and I'm lucky to be able to spend this time with my boys. I'm lucky to have such wonderful children, and to be married to "Sugar Mama" Squirrel.
I don't know how much of this time they will remember. I feel insecure often about my parenting style -- are they developing the way they should? Have I balanced well enough between the safety and security of structure and the creative process involved in experiencing new things? Are both sides of their brains developing?
When Mooselet was in daycare, both of the providers we had knew this stuff. In some ways I'd feel more comfortable with the boys being raised by someone who had, you know, experience and training. I have really good intentions and limitless love for them, but I wonder at times whether or not that's enough. In some ways I think it is, and in others it probably isn't.
Ok, I've gotten rambly now. Maybe I just wanted to whine a bit.
Side note -- hey dkw, if you can pull yourself away from Bob (figuratively, of course) and if you're reading this thread, maybe you could send me the e-mail address of your Santa Barbara SAHD friend that's part of that group. I planned to be employed long ago, but since I'm not, spending time with other adults during the week might be a good thing. I'll have to work a little harder at it, since a 3-month-old isn't quite as easy to work around as a 2 year old schedule-wise, but it might be doable.
posted
Pop, I respect you immensely. Our best friends at church are a couple our own age, who were infertile for years and finally had a baby boy. The dad stayed home with him the first six months of his life, because Mama made a lot more money than Daddy and they felt that someone needed to be home with him those early months.
Daddy finally went back to work but started his own business, and his schedule is more flexible so he can still be there a lot of the time.
That is one happy little boy. And the Dad is one of the best Dads I've ever been around. Always quick to tell you how his son is doing, what new things he's done, how many teeth he has now.
Kids, even babies, need time with their Dads. One of our biggest concerns and problems now is that Wes doesn't get enough time with ours. We try and make sure he gets some time alone with each of them. Natalie especially, she is growing so fast! He usually volunteers to pick her up from dance so they can spend an hour or so together on the way home once a week, just talking in the car.
Dads that commit themselves to their children are wonderful, loving, fabulous men.
posted
I personally respect people who make the choice that is best for their family. Which sounds trite, but I think is really the best way to look at it.
If the family can barely survive on two incomes, then it is not a good idea for one parent to be stay-at-home. If one income is more than enough, then both parents don't need to be working full time.
Also working is not a binary condition where a parent is either working full time or staying at home. Once all the children are in school, a parent could easily work 20 hours a week and be there when the children got home, if that was the best option for their family.
I think it also depends on what kind of outside support there is for the family as well. I had two sets of grandparents and a great-aunt/uncle within walking distance, all of whom were retired and very happy to watch us if my parents were working late or just wanted to go on a long weekend. When we got older, my mother went back to work, but I don't think we were really losing any "parenting." But I can see how that would be very different if we were being cared for my underpaid strangers.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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One of Steve's cousins is an SAHD in Ohio. I guess I'm lucky to have stumbled into a welcoming family that supports whatever lifestyle choices anyone makes, unlike my own.
Anyway they have two children, one of which is two-ish and a baby as I recall. They seemed like normal kids. Mama is a doctor, Dad was an engineer. Clearly Mama was bringing home the bacon, so Dad is the one staying home, at least while they young. Didn't discuss it extensively with them, but like I said they seemed like normal people.
quote:If the family can barely survive on two incomes...
I think that part of the tension comes from differening perceptions as to what people need to "survive". There are some people living in a very nice neighborhood with a nice house and an SUV and ... who feel like they are barely surviving, when they are living in luxury and ease. They just don't think that they are because they are comparing themselves to their upper-middle-class neighbors. It is easy for others to look at that and judge them as putting their material posessions above their family.
This is probably true for some families, but it's sad when we judge another without knowing the facts. It causes resentment on both sides, and the rift widens.
Of course, there are also unfair judgments from the other side as well.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I have been on both sides of this, too. I can honestly say that my life was a lot easier as a working mom. I could use my breaks to make the phone calls I needed to, such as making well-visit appointments and dental appts, etc.
Yes, I still had to do houisework, but not as much because when nobody is home, the house gets much less messed up. Plus, I got to wear nice clothes and talk to adults, even have lunch with them without constantly losing my train of thought (or having it derailed by a barrage of "I want Sprite!" "Can I have a quarter? I want a quarter.")
My job was sometimes mind-numbing, but I still manage to look back on those days with some affection. I'm glad I left. I mean, sometimes I still wonder if it was the right choice for my children, because I sometimes wonder if they get enough social interaction with others. But on the other hand, how could I possibly pay a stranger to raise my child, if I could avoid it?
We moved, and changed our lifestyle. Smaller house, cheaper vehicles, Goodbye, Nice Clothes and Manicures!. But it was okay. we live in a neighborhood with lots of playgrounds and two pools to play at in the summer time, and now that everybody is potty-trained that has become more of a possibility.
However, I literally went for YEARS not bbeing able to use the bathroom with the door shut, or take a shower without deadbolting the doors and hiding the keys (and don't forget to close and lock the windows, because child # 2 likes to climb).
Robert got mad at me and wondered off while I was bringing in groceries. Liam was two and had to be tackled to get his training pants changed. Robert was four. When I realized he was gone I grabbed Liam and (after checking the neighbor's houses and yards) drove off to comb the whole neighborhood. I enlisted dog-walkers and people doing yard work to help me.
Meanwhile, another mom from down the street found Robert and brought him home, but I wasn't there. She called the police, convinced that I had left him home alone (I had left the garage door open and the house unlocked so he could get in if he did come back).
My other neighbors found him while going door to door, and flagged me down. The Mom who had called the cops bawled me out (and the people helping me look bawled back. Me, I just plain broke down). The cops came, I told them what happened. They were very kind to me. I guess they see much worse parenting on a fairly regular basis. My big mistake was panicking, I guess. THEN, I get a call from the board of the babysitting co-op, and they kicked me out. Because I had so publicly 'lost' my own child that they thought it reflected badly on the co-op for me to be in it. This was the same co-op I had become disgusted with because the meetings had become alcohol-fuelled hen parties that I didn't much care to be part of. Once, when I sat for someone else in the co-op, she showed me where they liquor was and told me to help myself. *WTF?!?*
So, yeah. SAHMs get it from all sides-- they don't have occasion to take much care of themselves or interact much with other adults, or when they do they are seen as less-than-vigilant parents on the playground. I dunno. I couldn't talk with other moms and still keep an effective eye on my two, so maybe I just suck at multi-tasking. I know people do it, but I can't.
We also have to deal with the opinions of other SAHMs, who WILL talk about the state of our housekeeping or yardwork or whatever. Frankly, housework beyond the minimum level is low on my priorities, but it still smarts when I see the looks my mother-in-law gives the house when she visits (and I usually do a good bit of work before she comes, too).
Then there is the assumption that we're wealthy because I don't work outside the home. Wha??
The worst is this competitive thing that women seem to have for other women. I honestly think that mom down the street who called the cops on me would not have done it if I had gone to her after-the-co-op-meeting-drinking-parties. That an dthe fact that the time I had sat for her kids, her hubby sort of checked me out (Do men really think women don't notice these things? Moron. ).
I mean, come on! Hate me because I'm beautiful ( ) sure, but don't pretend it's because I'm a sloppy housekeeper. Okay. Yes. I know that is an elaborate justification for my feelings of persecution. Just let me believe it for a little while, won't you?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
And I went back to work because I felt horrible about the job I was doing at home. I'm a crappy housekeeper, with or without kiddos. I also felt that no-one respected me as a SAHM. I must admit that I find more people treating me as an intelligent person worth listening to when I let them know I am in the workforce. It's sad, but at parties, after I said I was staying home with my daughter, people stopped talking about issues and deep-thinking topics with me. Now, they'll respect my ideas and opinions when I argue. Isn't that depressing?
So I greatly admire women and men who choose to stay home with their kids. And your opinions and thoughts are extremely valuable. But society doesn't seem to think so.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Belle, I lived in a neighborhood with a lot of working moms, too, when my kids were little. I was deliberately being non-specific about my support system, which was not necessarily local; it was La Leche League. Since I volunteered with that organization on the state and regional level, I got to know a lot of like-minded moms, who also stayed at home with their kids. I sometimes saw these other women at meetings and conferences, but we also communicated by mail and phone (and now by email). The nice thing about La Leche League is that it is child-friendly - children are welcome at La Leche League meetings and conferences (they even have playrooms or supervised children's activities and "rock and rest" rooms for time with your kids at conferences). So I wasn't just flippantly suggesting that you start a support group. I was just lucky to have one sort of ready-made for me when I decided to involve myself with La Leche League.
Olivet, you can come to my house anytime as you promise not to criticize my housekeeping - I am sure that one look at my house will make you feel like the best housekeeper in the world. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Belle, I feel awful that you are struggling with this. Does the timing of this post have anything to do with your decision not to go back to school?
Because if it does, and if you are second-guessing yourself, you should know that nobody here is. Personally, I am selfish enough to want you to be doing the awesome and difficult job of raising kids for participating in my society, and ...
... I want you to be writing things that I can read, here or elsewhere. I'm not sure what extra schooling would give you, but I'd support you in that endeavor, if you chose. (I'd keep my selfish little pouts at having less of you doing those valuable things to myself. )
posted
Ela, I never, EVER even THINK badly of anyone else's housekeeping. I mean, maybe if there were rats, or something burrowing through piles of old newspapers. Maybe. Anyways, thanks:)
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Don't feel bad about bad housekeeping. No one is ever going to marry me... Look at this mess.. Kipple everywhere! Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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That would concern and anger me too.![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
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This was the same co-op I had become disgusted with because the meetings had become alcohol-fuelled hen parties that I didn't much care to be part of. Once, when I sat for someone else in the co-op, she showed me where they liquor was and told me to help myself. *WTF?!?*![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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