posted
I read a book once by John Paulk about it. He talked of being gay, gay bars, being a drag queen and depression and then of "salvation." Then there was this other book I don't remember who it was by but the advice in it was horrible. Something along the lines of if you can't change, stay celebate. Deny yourself human contact and be miserable. I don't believe in the ex gay movement. I think it does more damage than good. For example, a man who is attracted to me marrying a woman, having kids by her and years later her finding out that he is gay, has been hiding it, strugling with it and hating himself even more as he has affairs with men despite being "cured." Homosexuality is not some sort of illness. It's a variation. Opinions?
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Even if people can choose to stop being gay, I've never heard a convincing argument that they should.
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What do you think about the character of what's-his-face in the Homecoming series? Should we sneer at people who've chosen to marry or remain celebate?
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quote:Homosexuality is not some sort of illness. It's a variation.
Well, I think we'll find this discussion depends entirely on whether one thinks the above claim is true, so you can hardly just assert it.
I happen to believe it is not an illness, but I must admit I don't have much of a reason for that belief, other than because it seems like the default and I see no strong reason to believe otherwise.
I will say that there is such a thing as illness, even a moral illness. Being born with the desire to murder would not make murder okay. So, the question is - is homosexuaity okay?
posted
I haven't read Homecoming.. (Well, not that one..) It's not a matter of sneering. It's wondering what is worse for society: an openly gay man, or a gay man who tries to kill his gayness, marries a woman and causes her to be unhappy because he likes men and not women. Because women just don't satisfy him that way. To me it leads to lying, self doubt, suicidal thoughts and things that are a lot worse than someone being allowed to be gay.
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I think we should mourn those who feel compelled by societal delusion to marry despite having no physical attraction to their spouse.
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It's sad. Because it's damaging to their psyches, damaging to their wives and also to the children! These places like Exodus have no scientific proof that their methods work. And how do they propose to cure gayness? Make men play football and women put on make-up? Yes, I do sound rude, but it just makes me so angry. I got to do research on their methods.
And the worse thing is teenagers... who are already confused falling in with these groups who don't even realize they are teaching someone to hate themselves!
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I thinks a man marrying a woman to take on the appearance of heterosexuality does more to damage the institution of Marriage than allowing gay couples to marry.
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I agree! You always have sensible things to say, Dan_raven... And to make matters more annoying they just think that gayness is about not being a proper man or a proper woman. Whatever that means. That is not the case! There are a lot of gay guys that like football and lesbians sporting lipstick and bright coloured dresses... It's hard to even read this stuff
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Annie-- I think the distinction is one of self-imposed choice over external guilt and pressure. I mean, if a man wants a family and his range of sexuality will allow a reasonably happy life for himself and his wife, then, more power to him. I read somewhere that only something like 6% of people are 'all gay' or 'all straight', and I think that may be true. Most aspects of life are points along a continuum, even in genetics (frex, my mother has so much native american blood that when she had a perm she'd be mistaken for a light-skinned African American. I have a bit less melanin than she did, but still I get mistaken for Middle-Eastern, Israeli and mixed Asian-- I'm certainly not as pale as my children). I think OSC even had one of his characters who has been called 'gay' describe himself as '37% attracted to women' (Songmaster?).
I do sort of agree with Syn, on the 'variation' idea. In doing some fruit fly breeding experiments, I always had some male fruit flies that tried to mate with other males. It happened in every about every generation, even though THOSE individuals probably didn't reproduce (though I'm not SURE, because they were, you know, FRUIT FLIES, for crying out loud).
That makes me wonder if the ex-gay movement might not be self-defeating. If it IS genetic, then nature limits the passage of those traits by the expression of them ( though variation allows for small numbers in each generation). Force them to reproduce and you have MORE of those struggling, conflicted individuals in ech generation.
Er, don't mind me... just thinking with my fingers...
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Olivet, it was Songmaster, though he also mentioned attraction to sheep and ended it with a pick-up line so I was under the impression it was at least partially a joke... though there was some validity, I don't think anyone in the pro-homosexual marriage camp wants to base anything on OSC's idea's.
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I don't think it's HIS idea, necessarily, but it feels true to me, on some level. So why not?
It's funny to me, because the ex-gay movement is big in the very religious community ( to whoever it was that first posted the term "Mormosexual"), and it makes sense to me that forcing people to act against their sexual inclinations runs a tremendous risk of increasing the occurrence of those inclinations.
So in a wierd, less-compassionate-than-normal-for-me way, I support the ex-gay movement. Breed in the deviants!
posted
So what do we do if the ex-gays have a valid point, Syn?
Or what if ex-gays can be perfectly happy? Happier than if they were gay?
All of your disaster scenarios rely on people NOT being able to accomplish a full lifestyle transition.
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Then if they are happier, they should go for it. But it depends... It depends if they are really happy or just pretending and hiding backsliding habits. It depends if this really, really is the right path for them. But it's hard to gather information over whether or not that is true.
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I dunno what Syn thinks, but I bet at least a few could manage it, Scott. Maybe more than not.
I mean, if I woke up tomorrow wanting the boobies, I think I'd still be happier with the hubby. I think it's a balance between social pressure and a person's particular placement on the sexual continuum.
If you can do it with the opposite sex, I can see where that would be the path of least resistance, socially. But if you can't... well, that would suck.
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"It depends if they are really happy or just pretending and hiding backsliding habits."
Both sides of this dicussion depend VERY heavily on doubting the true feelings of case studies from the other side.
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I think its important to remember that characters in books can do things that wouldn't happen in real life.
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I'm not sure I see your point, fugu. Care to elaborate? I think history shows us plenty of examples of men who prefer the company of men who were married and had children. Like, say, Oscar Wilde.
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Oscar Wilde was anything but faithful to his wife if you consider having sex with members of your own sex as being unfaithful to your spouse.
I am a big believer in the power and supremacy of love. I think the bigger question, once we get our minds out of the sexual gutter, is, "Can two men or two women fall in love with each other."
Most opponents to homosexuals do not beleive such an "unnatural" connection can happen. They assume its all lust and can be prevented with a little fortitude.
Most pro-Gay marriage people believe that Love can occur between two people of any sex. To them, to people like me, any attemt to force apart two people in love because it goes against your ideas of right and wrong and order in the universe is in of itself, wrong.
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I don't know why anyone would be opposed to the "ex-gay" movement. If that's how someone chooses to live, out of faith or any other reason, why would you consider that wrong?
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The only worry I have about the Ex-Gay movement, the only reason I'd oppose it, were if it used techniques that forced people into doing or being things that were unhealthy. In other words, they used brain-washing techniques to make a person hide and debase their homosexuality.
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it is probably possible for a gay man to fall in love with a straight woman and a lesbian to fall for a man... Sex is a different matter. There's a difference between sexual attraction and love in a lot of cases. My objection is the damage it could be done to someone's already fragile psyche. Especially that of a teenager.
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quote:The only worry I have about the Ex-Gay movement, the only reason I'd oppose it, were if it used techniques that forced people into doing or being things that were unhealthy. In other words, they used brain-washing techniques to make a person hide and debase their homosexuality.
I agree.
quote:Because some gay people might feel condemned and hurt by trying to live a lie, or whatever.
This is entirely begging the question. I keep hering people say there's no homosexual lifestyle (a sentiment I happen to agree with). If that's the case, why would voluntarily changing this one area of a life be "living a lie."
There's a large a political motive to discredit ex-gays as there is to support them, if not larger.
Personal choice is the important thing, but I think we're all bothered by the "Marketing" Thatis, all the political crap of trying to make the 'other group' look bad.
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My main concern is individual people feeling depressed and hurt or being treated like they are second class. Like John Paulk practically got treated like a... dog...To me it doesn't seem like the other members respect him that much at all. Like no matter how much you try to change your stripes in such groups, they still will treat you like some ankle biting dog that doesn't count as much. But that is how I see it. I need to do more research on both sides of the issue.
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Is it possible for a person to believe that he (or she) is irresistably drawn to homosexuality ... only to find out through experience that he was wrong, and that he is much happier living as a heterosexual? I'm mostly curious if any of the case studies involved a person like this, who abandoned homosexuality from simple disenchantment or lack of desire?
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I've heard people say that if you can leave it behind, it means you weren't really gay, which is a singularly unhelpful response.
I know several women who had lesbian relationships in college and later "outgrew it" (there words). They were never exclusively lesbian though, so that probably doesn't really answer the question.
posted
There's bisexuality to consider... Also the acceptance of friends and love ones... A lot of people are miserable being gay and just might want a way out of the pain... But I wonder if this really helps them..
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I would posit to say that a good marriage can transcend sexual desire. Look at the examples of arranged marriages in other cultures - people are married for economic or social reasons and many (not all, of course) find very satisfying relationships with someone they might not have chosen based solely on their sex drive.
Of course I make exceptions for anyone being forced to live a way they haven't chosen.
I do, however, think we underestimate the potential of the human being for free, independent thought when we start labelling as "brainwashing" any kind of teaching we disagree with. Brainwashing is a very technical psychological situation that I would dare to say none of us has been privy to. Aren't you "proselyting" by voicing your objections to a doctrine you disagree with? Isn't everyone who writes a book a "missionary" for his own philosophy?
If we belive in freedom of thought, let's encourage freedom of thought, Let's have a society open enough that all books and all arguments are accessible to everyone. Let's not be too hasty to condemn someone for brainwashing when we may be engaging in the very same behavior.
posted
Syn, I've read Love Won Out also, and I didn't get the impression that Paulk and his wife were just making do with each other to look more acceptable to society. I got the impression that they were happy they were able to change their sexual orientation. That said, he reportedly has had trouble maintaining it, and I don't know where he's at on it nowadays. Last I heard he'd resigned from his affiliation with Focus on the Family, though it was reportedly unconnected with his lapses. I've heard nothing on how his wife is doing.
All of that said, I have a dear friend who admits that his primary sexual orientation is toward his own sex. He's also been married (to a woman) for 25 years and has three kids, and two grandkids. For the past 30 years, he's restrained his primary sexual urges, and I think it has hurt him over the years. Actually, I know it's been painful for him. But he says often enough that I believe him, that he would not change how it has all worked out. He *loves* his grandchildren. And he loves his wife. He says that his main question after he dies and faces God is "God, why did you make me this way? Why did I have to struggle with this all my life?" His words, not mine. He has been interested in some of the programs available to help people change their sexual orientation, and his wife did not want him to try it. Why? I don't know. He didn't either, when he told me about it. But he respected her wishes.
I find him interesting (he's been a good friend to me for the past 12 years or so), as I did Paulk's book. It just makes me more confused about the nature of homosexuality.
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posted
I've said this before and been attacked, but hey, I'm game for being called all sorts of names again.
I do not believe you are "born gay". I think you may very well have a genetic predisposition to that type of sexual attraction, just as someone who is born with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism. But that doesn't mean it's okay for him to drink. That's where choice comes in.
I firmly believe choice is at least partially involved. Now, I know some of you are going to tell me I have no way of knowing that since I'm not gay, and you're right. But, I can only go by what I can observe.
Studies with identical twins show that while they do tend to be more likely than unrelated people to both be the same sexual orientation, there is no 100% correlation. If your gay, your identical twin isn't always. Which one was "born gay"? How can one have been born that way and the other not, if they both have the same genetic makeup?
quote:Using the 14,000+ Australian twin collection, they found that if one twin was homosexual, 38% of the time his identical brother was too. For lesbianism the concordance was 30%. Bailey, JM; Dunne,MP; Martin,NG (2000): Genetic and Environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. J. Pers. Social Psychology 78, 524-536.
Also, from personal experience, I lived with my cousin for some time. We were roommates. We had grown up as pretty close friends, we cried together over our first disastrous breakups, we had mooned over guys together, we had double dated. She was involved in a sexual relationship with a man and was quite happy. She married him. She had a daughter.
She found out he was unfaithful. She got angry, she divorced him. Then she started dating around, and decided to start seeing women instead. Because "men are pigs, so I'll try this for a while" Now she's in a lesbian relationship and says she is gay.
She was not "born gay" I know it because I know her and because she will readily admit to you that she wasn't born this way, she chose to become gay because she was disillusioned with men.
If it's not genetic, if it's a behavior not a part of your DNA, then it stands to reason it can be changed. And if people believe they will be happier living a life as a heterosexual, and they choose to try and change their behavior, I think we should support them. Who is going to deny being gay is tough in our society? Would it not be a good thing if the majority of people who were not happy were able to enter therapy and live happy lives as heterosexuals?
No one is going to force anybody into therapy at gun point (and it wouldn't work if they did). So if you're gay and you're happy being gay, then cool. My cousin has no intention of changing her lifestyle, and while I don't approve 100% I'm glad she's happy. But if you're not happy, or you're a really confused and conflicted teen, and positive changes can be effected by therapy, then we should absolutely support it.
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jeni, Dobson put out a statement, I'll see if I can find out, saying he totally supports Paulk and that rumors that he had returned to a homosexual lifestyle were untrue.
*shrug* Don't know personally, but I think their story of how they found happiness together is a very heartwarming one.
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Here is one of my theories- That sexuality in human beings is very, very complex. It can't be neatly divided into gay or straight or even male or female because there's a lot of factors. It's a spectrum, and the only way to understand it is to step outside of stereotypes and look at it from an entirely different angle. That's the only way it will really make any sort of sense. but studies have showed that it's difficult if not impossible to change a person's sexuality...
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Syn, it's obviously not impossible, because some people have done it. But I agree that from what I've read, it is very very difficult, and the person changing has to be personally highly motivated.
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Okay, this is Dr. Dobson's newletter where he addresses Paulk going into the gay bar. He doens't really talk about, he only mentions it in passing.
He says some things in there about using the word "choice" Dobson doesn't believe people "choose" to be gay.
That really hit home with me, and I intend to do more reading. I can see where the word choice may cause people anguish, and if that's so then I need to find another way to express my views. I certainly don't want to offend.
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He's clearly not much of a statistician -- he asserts that if it were hereditary, it would be constant across cultures. Which just plain isn't true. For instance, sickle-cell anemia is caused genetically, but its not constant across cultures. He needs to learn some basic genetics before he starts making assumptions about what genetics means.
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But why do they assume that all gay guys become gay because they are effeminate? that just isn't true. Like this for example, there's a different between gayness and... the so-called gender identity disorder which really does not exist!
quote:Repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex.
In boys, preference for cross-dressing, or simulating female attire. In girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing.
Strong and persistent preference for cross-sexual roles in make-believe play, or persistent fantasies of being the other sex.
Intense desire to participate in stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex.
Strong preference for playmates of the other sex.
Not all gay guys dress up like women or talk in high pitched voices!
posted
I'm not here to defend him as a scientist (because I'm not one myself), but allowing that what you say is probably true, does that invalidate everything else said?
Specifically, does the existence of more than 800 people who were once gay and were then able to change until they now live heterosexual lives impact anyone's understanding of homosexuality? Those 800 people have been through the ministry they sponsor, they know who they are, they are not faceless stats.
I have a hard time believing that homosexuality is an inherent trait that can NEVER be changed, when so many people have in fact changed. Who knows how many more might now be living their lives as heterosexuals if we looked at this as something that could be altered? Everyone trumpets the high incidence of gay teen suicides, what if we had educational programs at school offering free counseling for teens with homosexual feelings? Could we prevent those suicides? What if we told them "you can be helped, we can get you help" instead of "you're born that way, you can never change"
That last message is devastating to a young boy who doesn't want to be homosexual. Who wants to grow up marry, have children and a dog and a house with a picket fence. If we put that kid in therapy and helped direct his sexual desires toward healthy attraction to females, would we not be doing him a great favor?
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Just going back to your point about Zdorab and Shedemei in Homecoming Annie - the situation there was made different by the fact that for a lot of the time, Zdorab had no option but celibacy. (In terms of there were no potential sexual partners for him).
And there were significant problems in their marriage, caused because of Zdorab's love of Shedemei not being sexual.
As Hobbes said, I shouldn't use OSC to support a pro-homosexual marriage standpoint.
I'm not even sure if I disagree with homosexual people deciding on celibate, straight, marriage: if (and it's a big if) they are choosing freely and not due to social pressure.
A thought just occured to me: would a celibate homosexual marriage (so still a union of sexual love, as well as platonic love - kinda like a homosexual version of the Children of the Mind of Christ in the Ender series) still be problematic for those people who oppose non-celibate homosexual marriage?
posted
Okay, I went back and re-read it fugu, and he does not say it would be constant across different cultures. He says it would be constant through time and history, but instead we see that it flourishes in certain times and cultures. He does not say that the incidence would be constant across all ethnic groups.
I'm not saying he's right, but I am saying that your criticism is not addressed to what he really said. And I doubt you'll give him any credence anyway, since he uses references to the Biblical text for examples of these ebbs in the behaviors.
And syn, they did not say effeminate boys all turn out to be homosexual. Nor did they say all homosexuals were effeminate boys.
quote:It is important to understand, however, that most of my homosexual clients were not explicitly feminine when they were children.
But make no mistake. A boy can be sensitive, kind, social, artistic, gentle—and be heterosexual. He can be an artist, an actor, a dancer, a cook, a musician—and heterosexual. These innate artistic skills are "who he is," part of the wonderful range of human abilities, and there's no reason to discourage them. But they can all be developed within the context of normal heterosexual manhood.
Please, please let's be fair. You disagree with something, then fine. But make sure you are representing the views of the opposite side correctly.
Edit because half of my quote didn't paste.
[ February 23, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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quote:Studies with identical twins show that while they do tend to be more likely than unrelated people to both be the same sexual orientation, there is no 100% correlation. If your gay, your identical twin isn't always.
The 100% correlation would only occur if "gayness" were entirely genetic and passed down through simple mendelian genetics. However, environmental factors likely play a part. Lets look at two different "traits."
Bailey and Pillard look at homosexuality in 1991, and find "52% (29/56) of monozygotic cotwins, 22% (12/54) of dizygotic cotwins, and 11% (6/57) of adoptive brothers were homosexual."
An article by Hyttinen et all in 2003 looks at diabetes type I and finds, "The crude probandwise concordance rate for type 1 diabetes was 42.9% (95% CI 26.7 59.2%) in MZ and 7.4% (2.2-12.6%) in DZ twins. The crude pairwise concordance rate was 27.3% (22.8-31.8%) in MZ and 3.8% (2.7-4.9%) in DZ twins (Table 1)."
(Proband means "An affected person ascertained independently of his relatives in a genetic study")
Is diabetes 1 associated with genetics? yes. Does it have other factors? yes.Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
In that case, note that sickle cell anemia is not constant across time and history. I wasn't using cultures to mean ethnic groups, I was using cultures to mean specific historical groupings of people.
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Sun, you are right. I acknowledge that. One can be born with a predisposition for diabetes and because of environmental factors only one identical twin gets diabetes.
One can be born with a predisposition to homosexual attraction, but with appropriate therapy turn that attraction toward the opposite sex. That's what I'm asserting. Not denying that people are in fact born with a tendency to be gay, it may very well be so. But that doesn't mean the person is "definitely gay" and nothing can be done about it.
After all, the person born with the gene that predisposes him to alcoholism is not destined to be an alcoholic. His behavior will determine whether he does or not. I personally see homosexuality in a similar vein.
That is my personal opinion, based on what I've read and observed, it does not mean that I think everyone has to agree with me. I know a lot of people won't. HOwever, I think we need to step back and look at what ministries like Love Won Out and Exodus are doing. And we need to think about and consider the idea that homosexuals who are not happy in their homosexuality may be able to change and be happier. And that's a good thing, for them to be happier, isn't it?
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Belle, your assumption that twins should have a 100% concordance rate is flawed.
For examples: 50-80% concordance rate in bipolar disorder 40% concordance rate in unipolar depression 30-60% concordance rate in autism 50% concordance in ADD.
Did you choose to have depression and ADD? Do autistic children choose? Some kids with autism can undergo changes that would be considered "cures" yet that doesn't mean they didn't really have autism in the first place. Some genetic traits are too complicated to understand right now; homosexuality may well be one of them. Oh, and don't take my percentages too literally. I looked a few places and picked out averages. There are a LOT of twin studies out there and many contradict each other.
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Why is sickle cell anemia not constant, what factors influence that? This is not a challenge, I already said you were probably right in your criticism on that point, I'm just curious.
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Also, 800 is not many. In fact, it is vanishingly few. There are 300 million people in this nation. If, at an extremely conservative estimate, 1% of them are homosexual, that is 3 million people. 800 people is less than three hundredths of one percent. And the homosexual population is at least three or four times larger than that, meaning 800 is almost certainly under one hundredth of one percent.
In a population of that size, I would expect there to be 800 people doing just about anything you name.
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I read somewhere that only something like 6% of people are 'all gay' or 'all straight', and I think that may be true. Most aspects of life are points along a continuum, even in genetics (frex, my mother has so much native american blood that when she had a perm she'd be mistaken for a light-skinned African American. I have a bit less melanin than she did, but still I get mistaken for Middle-Eastern, Israeli and mixed Asian-- I'm certainly not as pale as my children). I think OSC even had one of his characters who has been called 'gay' describe himself as '37% attracted to women' (Songmaster?).![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
to whoever it was that first posted the term "Mormosexual"), and it makes sense to me that forcing people to act against their sexual inclinations runs a tremendous risk of increasing the occurrence of those inclinations.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
Breed in the deviants! 
