posted
I was going to post this in Belle's thread on "Religion Threads," but that would be quite unfair to sidetrack it so severely. So, I've made my own.
It's a rant. I'm a troll. Something she said (and, I acknowledge that she said it with all due love and fairness) ticked me off:
Belle,
I agree completely with your first point--discussing religious & worldview beliefs is an important way to gain consistency in your beliefs.
Wasn't it Socrates who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living"?
[So far, so good]
But something Belle wrote about in the second part of her post got to me. I've seen this stated elsewhere, and seen it and debated it IRL:
Person "A" asks God "B" question "C". Person "D" asks God "B" question "C".
God "B" provides answer "E" to person "A" God "B" provides answer "NOT-E" to person "D"
If this isn't enough to call the objectivity of God into question, then there's just nothing left. Faith becomes blind faith, and unexamined faith.
Either person "A," or person "D," or both are WRONG. God's responses are either purely subjective, are 50% probable to be subjective (chose your own favorite percentage, by all means), or are totally hallucinatory and self-induced.
Remember the mother who was just declared legally insane after she killed all of her children? She said:
posted
God may have told her to kill her children, but we believe he would have sent an angel to stop her. So I don't know which god she's talking about.
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posted
That gets sorta sticky. So anything bad that happens when people feel they have been commanded by god, are not actually commanded by God, but some delusion?
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posted
DOG: Really. Why is your only option either they're all right, or they're insane? What if there are some that are right, and some that are wrong? And alot of people get confused and think God is telling them to do something, when really it's just their own desire keeping them from hearing the truth. Not that I claim to know which is which, but I've definitely done things I though God would want me to do, but then realized it was just ME that wanted me to do it. Sometimes it's hard to tell, especially when people don't know God well enough to really recognize his voice.
And mack, I think that most people wouldn't dream of saying that they can tell when God is really speaking to someone and when he isn't. That's too much responsibility for most people.
My opinion is that if God REALLY told you to kill your kids (not that he would) that doesn't mean he would stop you from having any repurcussions.
"Okay, fine lady, God told you to do it. We're locking you up anyway."
posted
I'm just talking biblical precedent. But subtracting the religious element, what's the difference between a delusional person that brings about great good and one who brings about apparent bad? Who is more delusional, Stalin or Kennedy? Both envisioned the world very differently from the majority.
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posted
Just because some people legitimately hear from God, doesn't mean that other people can't come up with ideas and THINK they are from God. Those people are wrong. Andrea Yates was insane and I do not believe God actually told her to kill her kids. She may have been under influence by something in the spiritual realm, it could very well have been a demon whispering in her ear. It wasn't God because we know it is contrary to His will as he defines it in the scriptures. Christ was the final sacrifice and blood sacrifices would no longer be required. God will never repeat the order he gave to Abraham. He will not require us to kill our children.
What I tried to point out (and failed, because I see that my actual intended point didn't get made) is that God can tell people different parts of a universal truth, and that both of those people can be right, but can on the surface disagree because they don't know the whole truth.
When it comes down to it, to use homosexual marriage again as an example, God's commandment is for us to love one another. I think those that approve homosexual marriage have love in their hearts for the people involved. I also think those that oppose it can have love in their hearts for the people involved (granted they don't always, sometimes hatred and bigotry is the motivating factor, not love) So, the person that disagrees with me on homosexual marriage and I are really ending up in the same place - loving our neighbors. And that is what God intends. It's just that I view expressing love as pointing out what I believe to be a sin, and the other views acceptance of something they don't see as a sin to be the expression of love.
*sigh* Once again I can't really express what I mean well. I'm not trying to say that both of us can be right - there is an actual truth, that we will know someday. And yes, one of us will be wrong and the other right, but it may not be possible for us to determine that with our limited knowledge and experience while we're on earth.
On second thought I think I'll just delete the thread, it's only going to cause confusion because it's even confusing ME now. I guess my 2 AM revelations don't translate well to being written down. *sigh*
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posted
I have a lot of trouble with religion. Maybe it's the emphasis on the afterlife that bothers me. It seems to neglect this life and the joys and pleasures (having nothing to do with hedonism, large quantities of sex, but more with the joy of it all, breezes, trees, the scent of flowers and the warmth t hat fills your chest when you love a person) for something that may or may not exist. That could be real, or just an illusion. Does it truly matter? To me, spirituality is internal and private and religion seems to be more about groups, society, packs of people and their shared beliefs. Some of which can be unhealthy and contribute to the prejudice that we've had in the past and need to get rid of somehow. But as long as the same beliefs circulate without analysis or thought how can things change? Take for example, things like honor killings or people abandoning a child of theirs for being gay. Why doesn't it ever occur to these people that killing a daughter for looking at a man outside of the family or leaving your child to fend for themselves when they need you is worse than homosexuality or a loss of honour?
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posted
Andrea Yates is verifiably mentally ill on a biological basis. I could use a neurological basis to partly explain why should would have delusions of commandments from god.
Also--if I heard the voice of god it would scare the CRAP out of me.
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posted
I wish you wouldn't Belle, because it's an interesting perspective... It wouldn't scare me... but strange and impossible things have been happening to me for at least a year...
posted
Wow, Synth, you really think that religious people don't enjoy life? That's really sad.
I stood at the edge of the Grand Canyon and cried. I thought, what a wonderful testament to God, what glory he will receive, that he created this amazing world.
I can't BELIEVE you think we never smell flowers, or enjoy the breeze, or fall in love, or whatever else it is you said. That's terrible.
mack:
quote: Also--if I heard the voice of god it would scare the CRAP out of me
I think it would scare me too. I never HEAR anything, mostly I just KNOW it, or think I do.
posted
You can examine a religion for internal consistency, but a faith vs. atheism debate is ultimately futile.
Analysis and comparsion requires a criteria. Criterias require values. All our values are derived from one fundamental First Principal (FP). If my FP is logic and your FP is faith, we can have a lot of fun together but there is no way we can resolve our differences.
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posted
Wow, I'd never think that of religious people. Like any person, religious folks are equally as capable of being happy or unhappy in or with life and in the enjoyment of it.
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posted
*frustrated* That isn't what I meant..... How do I put it... maybe if someone has read His Dark Materials they'd know what I mean...
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posted
I guess someone more on the scale of Andrea Yates would be Ernest Shackleton, who lost his ship in Antarctica during WWI. So he has about 20 men and 3 lifeboats, and manages to spend 16 months in Antarctica and return them all alive. The situation was so dire, no one seriously considered sending a rescue party.
What makes him comparable is that he decided they would not ever stockpile food for the winter, because he felt it was more important for the men to have the expectation of getting out before winter than to have adequate stores. How insane is that?
Anyway, I don't [edit] know what you mean [/edit] that Andrea Yates was delusional. There may have been treatments that could have helped her. But I don't believe that she was actually psychotic. In her arrest interview she didn't seem confused about the facts.
posted
In the bible, isn't the devil known to take different forms. I mean, if Lucifer really wants to tempt all of humanity into damnation, it would be more effective if he looked good while doing it.
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quote:How do I put it... maybe if someone has read His Dark Materials they'd know what I mean...
See, I thought His Dark Materials was a perfect example of misrepresenting how religious people can take joy in this life. So I'm not sure why it helps your explanation.
Please don't delete your other thread, it made an excellent point.
I sidetracked things here so the intent of your other thread could stay sound.
Was it you or your friend who was opposed to homosexual marriages? I think you said it was her. What if she was having demons whispering in her ears? How could she tell? How could you? If the gods and demons whispering in your ears are just telling you what you already know or believe, how do you know it's not...just...you?
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posted
I believe she was depressed, anxious, and ultimately influenced by Satan (as all people are to one degree or another every day). I know she had been getting treatment and meds prior. There was some talk about suing her doctors. She was very dominated by her husband and repressing her rebellious feelings. But she knew the facts. She was not like the lady who was trying to baptize her newborn and drowned it.
But the question of whether someone's seemingly spiritual experiences come from God, Satan, or their own heart is a compelling one. Again, I say one can removed the religious figures and still have puzzling neuroses.
posted
Synesthesia, a mild mental disorder or mystism? I've given up religion, but I can't give up the notion.. of... there being something... Mainly because of the impossible things that keep happening to me.. Making me wonder if it's mental illness or something else.. It's confusing, so I really shouldn't talk about it. But back to HDM. It's not like I don't believe in the posibility of an afterlife. I just wonder if it really, truly matters. I think it's more important to worry about this life and how to make things better for people on Earth... Heaven, if it exist in my view can wait. But I really want heaven to be a large library with every book written and some that don't even exist yet. And until I can find a better way to express my views about these things I think I should retired from such discussions.
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posted
DOG, get ready to classify me as one of your 50% insane because I am quite sure demons have whispered in my ear.
I firmly believe in the concept of spiritual warfare and I believe that we battle not against flesh and blood but spirits.
If you've ever done any research into spiritual warfare (and good reliable sources are hard to find, it ranges from folks who think every single thing in the world can be attributed to demonic influence to those that think demons can't affect our world and I believe the truth is in the middle) you'll know that when you aren't sure where the voice is coming from, you test it.
You see if the voice is telling you something consistent with scripture and that it is something that will lead to the ultimate glory of God.
Satan is the great deceiver, he's a very accomplished liar and he'd be pretty ineffective he appeared with spooky music and horns and smoke around him. He comes at you with twisted truths, that are easy to believe. Sometimes it takes work to make certain where your guidance is really coming from.
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quote:It's not like I don't believe in the posibility of an afterlife. I just wonder if it really, truly matters. I think it's more important to worry about this life and how to make things better for people on Earth...
And it would be impossible to say that almost all religions, in there better moments, are not dedicated to making things better for people on Earth.
However, some things matter based on the time frame. A tendency to snap at others when irritated that gets worse over the course of a 70-year lifetime may not matter too much in the scheme of things. Such a trend extended to eternity may matter more than many other things.
Because I couldn't e-mail you and now that I am sure you are still reading this thread...
I, for one, thought you were doing wonderfully in the other thread. I am sorry I didn't encourage you more, because I really liked where it was going.
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posted
Mack, I'm not saying the insane are possessed, I'm saying that all people all the time have good choices and bad choices.
And I don't mean "repressed" in any technical freudian sense. You know I'm just a layperson. Pretend we are on the jury. Why do you think she didn't know right from wrong?
Trust me I know the problems that come with hormones. I'm in the middle of being completely unable to trust my feelings whilst trying to make a major decision (should I get a job). It's very uncomfortable.
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posted
I'm still thinking about the statement regarding religious folk not allowing themselves to enjoy the world in favor of the longterm. I have to make one more point, and it's this.
I have always figured that we enjoyed life MORE because we see it from a much larger perspective. You may see a lovely flower and consider it's beauty and the magic of how nature and life work, but when I see it I think of the perfect balance of life, the way that God created things juuuust so, to give us an amazing corporeal experience. I think about how that flower fits into the grand scheme of things, and that everything that ever happened or existed fit perfectly into God's plan. It's hard to explain because it's isn't a one-time set of thoughts that go through my head when I see something pretty. It's an entire worldview. I see a Pepsi can and marvel at how God created humanity and nurtured us until we grew and formed our technology. I try to see it from God's perspective, watching his children grow and smiling proudly at our accomplishments. We are so excited at the things we make everyday, at our inventions and innovations, as if nothing else matters, just like little children. We show off our artwork to everyone around us, and God sticks it to his refrigerator with a magnet. He has the Oval Office and open-heart surgery, liquid nitrogen and lederhosen.
I always felt sorry for the people that saw life from the ground, exactly as it "is" and nothing more. I know that's unfair, because I don't really believe that people who aren't religious don't think about things more cosmically than that, it's just that I believe that nothing could be more magnificent than the creation the way God intended it, used for his glory and other purposes that we can't see or understand.
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quote: A tendency to snap at others when irritated that gets worse over the course of a 70-year lifetime may not matter too much in the scheme of things. Such a trend extended to eternity may matter more than many other things.
Dagonee
Credit where credit is due, Dag... that's not properly documented
posted
Yes, people are faced with good choices and bad choiced. However, psychosis renders you unable to MAKE good choices based on reason.
Do you want me to get into the neurological basis of it?
And part of the problem with all this is the stigma of mental illness as not quite "real"--as in, people still have a choice whether or not to be ill, whether or not to have certain emotions, whether or not to control delusions and impulses, and even when reason is taken away, be expected to act reasonably and logically.
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posted
Well I wish you hadn't deleted the other thread, as I was enjoying it.
I would be interested in any scriptural examples you could provide, Belle, that equate confronting-the-log-in-your-brother's-eye with an expression of love.*
To take on the bus metaphor mentioned earlier, do you see dkw as being on another bus on the same road? At what point do differences of opinion label someone as "just in another bus" vs. "got their attention snagged by something in the alley"?
*This is not to say that I don't believe you when you say that you believe your actions and faith are borne of love.
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posted
But, PSI, that's how I view things in a way... It's difficult to explain it... I'm not an aethist who only believes in the visible or what can be proved. It's harder because I don't know what I really am in so many things... If I had a specific religion I could say, I believe this and that but not this... But if you have no specific religion... No real set world view.. If you are just on the edge of things.. Then how can that be explained? Mostly I think about the religions that are so strict that they allow no room for growth, for enjoyment, for sweet mistakes. That seems to lead to the extreme... blind hedonism which never helps anyone... Didn't I say I was retiring? Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm not aware of that one. Do you have linkage?
Everything for me comes back to the manichean fallacy, that spirit = good and body = bad. That if I'm receiving something in my heart, it must be from god, and that if I'm feeling something with my body it must be from Satan (this is the form of the fallacy, I'm against it.)
The irony is that (at least in my theology) Satan choose not to have a body and can only influence spiritually. So, in my view, does the spirit of God. But the point is not that but what the individual chooses.
At least in the conversation with Mack, we are arguing how one knows whether one no longer has that ability to choose good instead of bad. My understanding of her position is that there are states where one can seem to grasp facts but are psychotic. My (admittedly old) view is that psychotic people will have some apparent dysfunction (not knowing where they are or what day it is, or who others are).
If simply doing something really bad excuses one from responsibility, do we feel anger or pity toward them? How horrible is so horrible that the person must have had something wrong with them to do it? Is this not all murder?
posted
The Screwtape Letters contains an interesting discussion on how one of the devil's most successful accomplishments was the ability to corrupt desires to make attempts to satisfy them both sinful and non-pleasurable. I think there's a lot of truth to that.
quote: Mostly I think about the religions that are so strict that they allow no room for growth, for enjoyment, for sweet mistakes.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, my religion does leave room for growth and mistakes, because if it didn't God would smite us down where we stand on a daily basis. But if you're referring to the "enjoyment" of doing something blatently sinful and then calling it a "mistake" then I can honestly say that I am at a point in my life where doing blatently sinful things don't even sound enjoyable. Not that I never sin, but only that I don't usually sin for the sake of sinning, or in order to say "I've done that". (Example, getting drunk or doing pot just once.) My feelings are that life holds so much enjoyment to keep me satisfied until I die that I don't even need to venture out into the "forbidden" stuff to enjoy myself.
NOT THAT I NEVER SIN.
But I can say that when I look back on myself when I was younger, I can see how God used my mistakes to teach me and help me grow. Being a Christian isn't about never screwing up. It's about learning from your mistakes and getting better. I'm only starting to get to point where I disdain my mistakes rather than get enjoyment from them. And I think that makes life BETTER.
I believe that every mistake we make puts up a wall that keeps us from some of life's enjoyment.
Example: The wild fling you have in your first year of college, losing your virginity to a sexy guy from Italy. It was fun and you are glad you did it, but then you'll never be able to enjoy the feeling of giving yourself to one man and one man only, and knowing he saved himself for you, and that your love will never be shared by another.
See what I mean? I think that both religious and non- have different types of fun and pleasure throughout life, but choosing one thing will often keep you from ever having the other. You just have to make a choice about which is more important to you. My personal opinion is that the choices of the Christian are less wild and exciting sometimes, but the pleasure lasts much longer and runs much deeper.
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Just because Andrea Yeats was mentally ill at the time of her crime does not excuse her from taking the consequences, and therefore responsibility of her actions. However, I do believe that she should not incur the death penalty, and should be remanded to a psychiatric hospital for treatment of her illness.
posted
pooka to correct something, it isn't just hormones that are to blame for every chemical inbalance in the body. You are using "hormones" in way too broad a definition. There are all kinds of different biochemical classes of compounds that the body produces for chemical signals like seratonin and other stuff that aren't "hormones". I don't know if you can actually be more specific than "biochemcicals" I think "neurotransmitters" may be the broader term but I'm sure Mack will correct me if they aren't. Hormones though are a very specific chemcial class of compounds though.
posted
Person A asks God question C and God responds E. Person B asks God question C and God responds E.
But person A and person B are different people, each with a very limited understanding of the universe, each with their own prejudices, suppositions, assumptions, and biases. Occasionally, each has their own illnesses as well.
This results in person A believing the E means F while person B believes E means G or H or Not-F.
Mean while person X doesn't listen for God's answer and assumes I or J, or seeking personal gain, states the answer is L or P.
Finally Y asks God question C in regards to Y's specific time, place circumstance, and God responds with E. Yet person Z, from a different time and place and circumstance asks the same question and God answers with F. Y and Z then take their specific answers and assume that since God in infinite and perfect, those answers must be also infinite and perfect, not related to Y and Z's specific time and place.
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posted
"I believe she was depressed, anxious, and ultimately influenced by Satan (as all people are to one degree or another every day)."
I have trouble imagining that God would allow a demon to "influence" people in this manner, when He Himself considers free agency to be of primary importance. If He won't talk to people because He thinks it eliminates their free will, why would He allow a demon to do so?
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