posted
Okay, I just had a discussion with some of my co-workers about Bush's religious beliefs. Basically, they said that he believes that everything he does is directly inspired by God, and that he is basically God's hand on earth. My position was that I thought they were taking minor quotes about his religious beliefs out of context and blowing them up into things he didn't actually believe.
Personally, I think that while it is perfectly reasonable for a religious individual to consult with deity over major decisions, it's creepy and insane to be so cocksure and haughty about it that you bill yourself as the Hand of God, and hold other people, politically, to your personal religious inspiration. If you're a religious leader, that's one thing, it's your job (though Mormon leaders are typically very circumspect about such matters these days). But if you're a political leader, you cannot expect to be taken seriously by a diverse, secular population if you portray yourself that way. It would surprise me if even our current, politically awkward president would go that far.
So at the end of this discussion, we realized why we disagreed. I didn't believe that Bush had actually said outright that he thought he was the Hand of God, and that God was specifically directing his every decision. My co-workers were insistent that these quotes actually had been made, and were verifiably exactly as insane as they sounded.
So, since you folks are about the most well-read and politcally diverse community I know, could you chime in and let me know what you've heard about this? Are these quotes real and as damning as my co-workers claim? Where can I find them to read them myself? Is there any unbiased analysis of the issue out there? And why have I heard so little about them until now?
[ June 14, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
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posted
I heard a fairly balanced discussion on the topic the other day on NPR. Everyone has their own point of view. As for me, I don't think he has made such a far-fetched claim, only that he tries his best to do what he believes is right, praying as he goes.
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posted
i had a creepy line of silent thought the other day where i imagined bush warmongering in efforts to bring about the last days a la biblical prophecies concerning tumultuous times.
it's an intriguing but chilling thought.
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posted
*reminded of a series of books called Fire-Us* Him saying such things makes me feel uneasy. Perhaps because as a president he should be able to be neutral on occasions and to fight a war because it truly needs to be fought, no other reasons.
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posted
Okay, here's what I'm dealing with: "Geoff, if you had done a modicum of research, you would know that Bush has said all these things." I'm starting my own search of the subject now, but seriously, if any of you have any quotes, that'd be awesome. If we haven't found anything after a "modicum" has gone by, clearly, they're full of crap Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I believe what he did was he told several ambassadors and aides after 9/11 that he felt that God was calling him to his true purpose in life. This profoundly weirded out the Europeans.
Hand of God is a little more.. well, heavy handed.
EDIT: I heard that long before we ever did anything in Afghanistan.
He also felt that VLadmir Putin's religious stance gave him a kind of deep connection to the man. I read some quote from him about how he felt he had "looked into the man's soul." This is all from recollection, mind you. I remember something about Putin always carrying a silver cross that his mother gave him, and that instigated the conversation.
[ June 14, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
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posted
I think Rabbit has quoted some quotes somewhere but I don't remember which thread.
I think the reaction you are describing is the reaction of most moderate liberals on to the left of the scale.
However I suspect rather than actual quotes from Bush where they are getting their perception from are the fundamentalists on the oposite side of the spectrum who hail Bush constantly as a "Man of God" "Giant of Faith" etc etc.
posted
I believe that Bush sincerely believes he is doing God's work.
That is not to say that he believes he is in any way more powerful or righteous than any other person who allows their religious beliefs to guide their actions. I don't think he's building a theocracy, I think he's a man who possesses deep beliefs and cannot conceive of making a decision without their influence.
The fact that I disagree with many of the things he has done is besides the point.
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posted
I have heard and read quotes that would seem to imply a “hand of God” theology. But I’m not sure whether they’re meant to be deep theological reflection, or rhetoric.
For example – GWB often uses phrases from hymns in his speeches. This is a good rhetorical tactic that resonates with people who grew up singing those hymns, but some of the phrases might sound kind of odd to people who aren’t familiar with the hymns.
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posted
"Since America's founding, prayer has reassured us that the hand of God is guiding the affairs of this nation." -- Address to National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast, 16 May 2002
Gee, and I thought the President was the one doing that. Wait, maybe that makes him the hand of God.
(That's probably how that quote came to be used in that context.)
posted
I've never heard anything about Bush claiming to be the "Hand of God" or whatever...And I'm a bit of a news junkie.
Sounds like stuff rehashed and exaggerated on earlier things Bush has said about he is a religious man, etc... Sometimes Bush will use religion and/or God as a metaphor for trying to do what's "right".
[ June 14, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
So far, the data I've found and the stuff you guys are pointing out (thanks by the way!) seem to point to my view. Bush's actual, verifiable quotes are far more moderate and tame than the way his extremist supporters or his panicked opposition portray them. From what I can tell, he's a man whose religion matters to him (much as mine matters to me), but he doesn't seem to place any undue trust in his own divine inspiration for the country.
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posted
If God has a great master plan, and each of us have a part, however small, in that master plan, much like the threads in the weaving in Alvin Maker, then wouldn't we ALL be part of the "hand of God" because we each are part of the overall master plan?
posted
I suspect the accusation comes from the combination of several elements:
- The distrust that many people feel towards a person, especially one in power, who expresses religious beliefs
- The belief that Bush's actions are unfathomable to anyone with a rational mind ("rational" defined as "thinking like me") unless you assume that God tells him to do them
- The perception that the rationales for going to war in Iraq were confusing and contradictory, combined with the fear that a devout world leader who thinks he is ushering in Revelations might be motivated to use any means necessary towards a greater good
- Bush's reputed manner of never, ever going back on a course of action or a stated opinion, regardless of evidence to the contrary, as if he believed in a truth that wasn't bound by mere facts
[ June 14, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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posted
I remember Chretien (a Christian) being told that his efforts to have gay marriage legalized was very unchristian of him. One minister went so far as to publically say it would damn his soul to hell. His response was to say that as Jean Chretien he would do what is best for himself, based on the word of the bible. As Prime Minister he would do what is best for the country, based on the word of Canadians.
Of course, it helped that he agreed with "most Canadians", but I like the sentiment.
One of his few lucid moments.
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quote:Bush's reputed manner of never, ever going back on a course of action or a stated opinion, regardless of evidence to the contrary, as if he believed in a truth that wasn't bound by mere facts
This one's particularly interesting given the accusations that he changes policies at the drop of a hat.
posted
The "hand of God" quote refers to all actions and all affairs, including those of his opponents.
For someone to believe in a (very ambiguous) "good" God and not believe they were doing his will is pretty troubling, don't you think?
Sure, this same God allowed 9/11 to happen in the first place.
P.S. I've heard the fundamentalist lines that George Bush is God's choice for president and he will win in a landslide. These are no more informed than the folks on the other side who nominated Kerry because they believe him to be the most likely to defeat Bush.
posted
Dagonee - the fact that there are contradictory accusations about Bush doesn't always get as much media play as the accusations themselves. If you dislike the man, you'll hate him because he refuses to admit a mistake and then mock him for going back on a previous decision. No win.
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posted
And, to be fair, the concerted effort to showcase Bush's flips came after the Bush camp declared Kerry to be a waffler. More of the "Oh yeah?" school of campaigning.
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posted
Whoops, sorry, missed the reference. See what happens when you try to look incisive in too many threads at once? Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
"Hand of God" is creepy sounding because it refers to the middle ages when government punished people for disobeying "God's law". America is so far from that now, that now religious people are more likely to be punished for being religious, which is what I think is happening with Bush.
In America, "Seperation of church and state" now means you can't do church if you are in state, when it was originally suppose to mean that the state wasn't going to legislate, judge, or execute church laws. This is why America is "free". "In God we trust" means we trust God to legislate, judge, and execute his own laws, and we as humans aren't going to interfer.
The jihad against America is exactly the opposite of America's constitution, which explains why fanaticals hate us so bad. Fanaticals would love nothing more than the power to execute punishments for disobeying "God's laws". Oh wait, they already have killed how many Americas?
I'm very happy with Bush's performance as president (well, I am still irked at the Justice department letting MS off so easily and I'm hoping the EU is wiser...)
But I understand why (edit) *some* people don't like Bush. Nobody has mentioned religious things for so long or just plain laughed in its face either litterally or in behavoir (Clinton having sex with an intern in the White House), just mentioning prayer has everyone up in arms.
I think Clinton is easier to trust because he is predictable and wont do anything scary (except sending planes to bomb a country to try to distract everyone from his own impeachment hearings).
Bush isn't predictable and seems to be willing to take us down a very bumpy road, so it is like riding in a car with a wild man... So I understand why everyone doesn't like him. I'm not that comfortable with this war either, but I think it is the right thing to do.
posted
But I understand why people don't like Bush. Nobody has mentioned religious things for so long or just plain laughed in its face either litterally or in behavoir (Clinton having sex with an intern in the White House), just mentioning prayer has everyone up in arms.
Excuse me, that should be "why some people don't like Bush."
My disagreements with his policies and public stands have absolutely nothing to do with his religious beliefs or how he chooses to state them.
[ June 14, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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posted
Thanks for the help, everybody! I ended up actually making my point stick, for once. Usually, I can't hold up long in an oral debate — too much history of getting shouted down and mocked in grade school But when the facts and the quotes really do back you up (as they did in my case), it makes everything a lot easier.
Of course, one of my co-workers ended with the line, "As usual, Geoff, you'll believe whatever you want to believe." He's still bitter that he couldn't talk me out of Mormonism, I guess Amazing how offended some people get when after I've spent years hearing the same crap again and again about my religion, I'm not terribly impressed with their exciting new "facts" that they've just "discovered" ...
[ June 15, 2004, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
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posted
I think the whole "hand of God" thing, Geoff, has been blown out of proportion since Bush told Bob Woodward that he believed that God had put him in office for a reason -- namely, to deal with the 9/11 attacks.
I don't think Bush has ever said anything of the kind in public since, mainly because it was a public relations disaster at the time -- although a number of conservatives have made similar comments about him (based on their opinion only, of course).
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posted
Didn't he mention doing God's will in his speech about Freedom being the gift that America will give to the world?
I kind of remember being squicked out by that speech. If I remember I'll try and find a transcript of it when I get home.
(Of course, anyone who's been on this board for any length of time knows I never come back and follow up posts on political threads, so don't hold your breath )
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Which book of the New Testament did Jesus say "Billionaires deserve bigger tax cuts because they pay more taxes?" or maybe this is something Bush prayed about on his own.
posted
Right. If Bush though he was the hand of God, he'd put money where it belongs. I think he just wants people to think he thinks he is so that they'll vote for him. It is my belief that if Bush isn't evil, he's at the least a very bad man.
On the whole tax thing, if anything Jesus wants people to pay taxes. Give ceasar what is due ceasar. And he certainly didn't want more money to go to the rich. He told rich men to give all their belongings to the poor. If that's not support of a progressive tax system, what is? Posts: 238 | Registered: Jun 2004
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"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" points out that wealth is always conferred by government -- contributions from the less-well-off to the more-wealthy being "forced...at gun-point" to the same degree as paying taxes -- and that giving back a portion of the wealth which government bestows is not a hardship. There is no virtue in shouldering ones fair share of the cost of maintaining societal peace, government. At best, mr_porteiro_head, you are arguing that the greedy shouldn't have to bear their fair share of the burden. More troubling is your implication that the poor exist solely so that those of us who are better-off can collect brownie points from God.
posted
Funny (but not surprising) you would say that, aspectre. Someone refresh my memory: what percentage of income do 'the greedy' pay in taxes, exactly?
Vs. 'non-greedy' people?
Bueller?
Edit: And, of course, the implication only exists when you start as antagonistic and stretch the actual statements.
posted
Actually, Jesus effectively told the guy give up your money or you're going to hell. If that's not at gunpoint, what is?
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hey, I actually took the two seconds necessary to find the quote.
quote:I believe freedom is not America's gift to the world; I believe freedom is the almighty God's gift to each man and women in this world. And therefore, as we work to not only make the homeland more secure, we work to spread freedom, which will make the world more peaceful. The enemy can't stand the thought of free societies. That's why they attacked us, see. And we're not going to change. That's what they don't understand. There's nothing they can do to intimidate, to make us change our deepest belief.
It doesn't take a huge mental leap to connect this to Bush thinking of himself as God's herald, the hand of God, or on some sort of crusade.
But, like our Ratty Dog says, it does take *a* leap.
Either way, I still find it creepy. I'm not a religious man. Generally when someone does something that they feel is God's will it doesn't involve so many deaths. Which is why I'd rather God didn't fit into his speeches. If he can justify his actions without saying he has God's approval that's something that everyone can relate to. By invoking God's name he alienates those who don't believe/believe in a non-Christian iteration. That and I don't think it endears himself to the Christian public significantly more than just acting like a good Christian would.
Just my non-Christian and non-American take.
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posted
Here are some more, none of which are slam-dunks:
When asked by Woodward whether he'd consulted his father about Iraq, Bush said, "You know, he is the wrong father to appeal to....There is a higher father that I appeal to." He described his decision-making process in this manner: "Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will. I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case I pray that I be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then, of course, I pray for personal strength and for forgiveness."
These quotes are from an interview he did with several Christian magazines:
quote: The thing they say different now than four years ago is, "Mr. President, we pray for you." That happens a lot—at least from my perspective, what I'm able to see. When I'm shaking those hands, I bet you every other person or maybe every third person says, "Mr. President, my family prays for you."
It's not, you know, "Good luck, I hope you go tear down your opponent or go do this." It is, "My family prays for you." Now I admit I'm not spending a lot of time when I'm working the rope line. I can only tell you what I hear. And that is an incredibly sustaining part of the job of president. And people say—that's why I need Father Richard [Neuhaus] around more, he helps me articulate these things—I say, "It helps a lot." And people say, "Well how do you know?" I say, "Well if I have to explain it to you how I know then you can't possibly get it. I just know." And it matters a lot. It has made being the President of the United States a heck of a lot easier to be sustained by the prayers of the people and my own personal prayers.
quote:I just think that I have a fantastic opportunity to let the light shine, and will do so however, as a secular politician. It's really important that, you know...I say to our fellow countrymen that my job is not to promote a religion but to promote the ability of people to worship as they see fit.
In an interview with James Robinson, a Christian evangelist, Bush said (shortly before his election), "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen....I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."
-------
It's worth noting, by the way, that Bush seems most human and decent when he's actually talking about religion. While skimming articles on the topic, I noticed that he's much more animated and coherent when discussing his personal faith in God than he is when talking about almost any other issue; I think he'd have made a natural preacher.
posted
I was in the grocery store yesterday and noticed this as the cover of Time magazine. I dunno if you can read the article in full online, but Times aren't hard to get a hold of.
quote:Faith, God, & the Oval Office: Is Bush ruled too much by faith?
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