posted
One of the things that I've found men in general (and myself in particular) could never understand about women is their tendency to cry without knowing exactly why they're doing it. It's extremely frustrating to us -- and especially for those of us who have this compulsion to try to solve all the world's problems, One Hurting Person At A Time.
Yes, let's get this out into the open - I've got a whopping case of Messiah Complex.
And when women (and I say women because I've noticed this particular tendency much more in women than with men. Men do it too - as I will be discussing later in this post - but it seems to feature predominantly in women. This isn't sexism - it's an observaion) suddenly have an emotional breakdown and can't vocalize why, the general thing that happens is that we (men) assume that it must be something that WE did, and that they (the women) know EXACTLY what's causing the breakdown but just don't feel 'ready' to tell us at that exact moment.
Which, sometimes, is exactly what is happening.
But most of the time, it ain't.
But even when I've been able to realize this, and understand (either due to shere logic, or due to faith that the person is telling me the truth), it's still something I couldn't comprehend.
How can you be crying and not know what's causing it? Isn't the crying an effect of a cause, and for that cause to have an effect, you must be able to recognize that it is, in FACT a cause.
What I didn't realize is that apart from being patently false, it is also really crappy science.
A whole big part of science is trying to figure out causes of effects.
But this isn't going to be a discussion or analogy in scientific or physics terms. I'll leave THOSE analogies up to Hobbes. He's better at them than I am.
But what I think I do feel qualified to discuss is how I came to really 'get it'.
And what caused this epiphany happened to be tonight's episode of Joan of Arcadia.
It wasn't the show in and of itself that caused a fully-formed-from-the-head-of-Zeus concept to come forth - but it was the final piece of the puzzle. And the most curious thing is that it wasn't the subject matter of the Episode that particulary 'did it' for me -- but it was my reaction to it.
Folks, the show made me cry.
It's done it before. No current show on television has made me tear up as often as this one does. While it may not be the most cleverly written show on television (that may go to The West Wing or Gilmore Girls), and while it may not be the most Brutally Honest show (I'd give that to Six Feet Under), I will say that I find it to be the most, well, to use some words our LDS friends will find very familiar, "Plain and Precious" show on television today.
It's not a show about Theology, or even religion at all, even though the fact that a main character on the show is God may make one think otherwise. It's a show about Being There For People, and Keeping Your Eyes Open. It's a show about small things making a big difference. It's a show that shows negative concequences, not only of Bad decisions, but also of good and right ones.
And the climax of each episode often brings things together that should be so obvious to people, things we THINK we know, but turns it around in a whole new light - takes ideas and takes away from them the theoretical, and shows us the much more useful PRACTICAL.
But this isn't a thread about Joan of Arcadia. It's a thread about Women. Please, hang with me a little longer, folks.
Anyway, the end of the episode made me tear up, and at first I was a little frustrated with myself, because there was nothing imparticular in the events that transpired that I felt really connected with me THAT deeply. The performances were stunning, and very emotional - but that's usually not enough to elicit that kind of response from me.
I never have thought crying at movies or television is a sign of weakness or oversensitivity. I've done it before, and most of the times I knew exactly what had affected me. Sometimes it takes a few moments to sort it out, but then it comes, and I reflect a little longer before not paying my reaction any more mind.
But for some reason, tonight I did. I sat there and thought about it - it truly frustrated that I was Affected without knowing why. I saw the effect - but what was the cause?
After a little bit of reflection, I understood what hit home.
The final emotional climax in the episode involved Joan at first giving a speech for a Debate Class based on her research, notes, and well written arguements by her partner. This research had done a bit to change her mind - but in conveying her point of view to the audience and her opponent, she was just floundering. She believed in the Cause, but she was explaining it in terms that weren't personal to her.
But then, following an outburst by one of her friends in the audience contrary to Joan's stance on the subject, the final straw that seemed to create an impassable gulf in their friendship, Joan let all her paperwork and notes go, and just let her true feelings come out. she didn't use the notes, she let her experiences, her pain, her unbridled emotion all come out, and she expressed how personal the topic was to her own life. These may not even have been elements she realized herself going into the debate - but in this moment of raw power - it all came crashing out --- and this affected Joan's friend.
Her mind still wasn't changed on the subject, but now she GOT Joan. She knew why the subject was so close to her heart. She still didn't agree, but now she UNDERSTOOD. And I think that fact - the understanding - had just made an incredible impact on their friendship. What was being torn apart by semantics was now drawn closer together by sheer appreciation of one's own personal passion.
Joan didn't win the debate. She left early, quitting it. And it's obvious that, just as in real life, even that outburst would not necessarily have won a true debate. It wasn't documented, it wasn't stats. That's the way things work - emotional truth will not always win the day, but it still has the power to affect.
Now I understood what had affected ME in this show. This is a concept that I've held dear for a while, and to see it portrayed in such a powerful and truthful fashion must have hit something in me and resonated deeper within than just my brain's logic center.
But this time, instead of just aknowledging the Cause and moving on, I pondered.
And realized that now, I think I Got It, even if I still don't understand it -- this is an important concept that came along with the epiphany - the idea to GET a concept, even if you can't fully comprehend the reasoning behind it.
Emotions run deep - and I think the Emotional Core is much smarter than many take it to be. Emotions are often seen as something in conflict with logical thought, things that need to be put under control. And in some cases, this is true.
But sometimes, emotions CAN be stronger - and smarter - than logic. Emotions can pick up on things much quicker than logic - as it did with me in tonight's episode. My Emotions understood that there was something important there for me, even though Logic couldn't work out what it was until a short while after.
There are many Men who view active emotions as a weakess. As something to surpress, because they rarely seem to 'jive' with imediate logic.
These guys don't have faith.
But I've found that many women seem to put much more stake in their Emotions that men do. The fact that they don't necessarily understand them doesn't stop them from listening to them.
And this, THIS...I believe is the oft heralded but never truly understood Feminine Intuition. Those who give into it and listen I'm sure DO have the logic centers of their brains shouting down against them. But they also know from experience that their emotions tend to end up knowing something that the rest of their brain doesn't get until much later.
Yes, it's a form of faith - but a form that's been tested before.
A form I think I now finally seem to understand.
Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the emotions (or 'intuition') are always right - but I AM saying that I don't think we shold always regard them as being out of hand.
So women - when you tell us that you don't know what's bothering you, I'm not going to stop feeling frustrated that I can't help, but I will understand that whatever it is probably important, and is worth some pondering or meditating/praying on. That just because you're not telling me doesn't mean that you're necessarily holding back, but rather you're trying to figure it out on your own.
I get it now, and completely respect it.
And I'll actually concede that there's probably a lot more us Men-types could learn from women if we actually just pay attention.
So the moral of the story is: Listen to your Emotions. And please note that I AM making a distinction between Emotions and Hormones.
Keep those hunnies under control like the Bubonic Plague.
I'll let someone else try and tell you how to handle THAT one.
But in this case, I don't think Hobbes would be the best candidate to do so Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Sadly, having figured out women and foolishly posted his findings on the web, Taalcon suddenly and mysteriously disappeared, never to be heard from again. Some say it's just a coincidence. Others believe he has transferred to a higher plain. We may never know the truth.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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hmm. I never cry for no reason. But episodes 12 and 13 of Haibane Renmei made me cry. When they gave out the bell nuts that meant, thank you for being kind to me and the part at the end with Reki. It matches a situation I've been in... Then there was me watching it again wondering why the heck was I crying over Reki giving breakfast for Nemu because she forgot it... I just thought it was so sweet...
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"Men don't understand women, and women don't understand men, but at least men don't suffer the delusion that they think they do." OSC said something like that.
EDIT: found quote and corrected it.
[ February 06, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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"Complete understanding" and having a "nugget of insight" I view as being different things entirely. I would never dream of stating I have achieved the former, whereas the latter I view as being extremely plausable.
Whether the insight is correct I leave up for the women to decide.
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Well yes, I understand small bits of women too. For one thing, they have different anatomy, and something else I know about them.... ... ... ... ... I don't know. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wow. Congradulations Taalcon. Not only have you made the first step to understanding women, you have made the first steps to understanding yourself. Women may have "intuition" but women are a part of men and vice versa.
We may be in tune with emotions (most of us) but I truely believe that men are on their way to finding that gift in themselves as well. You are a testament to that.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I have to confess I'm a Joan of Arcadia fan as well.
Of all the shows I watch, it's the most manipulative of my emotions. I don't mean that in a bad way, either.
I'm not sure what draws me. It's not reinforcing beliefs of mine, because I don't have any. The show presents characters over time I have come to care about who are confronted with real pain, tragedy and choices. The fear of making the wrong choice, the prolonged consequences of making a bad one. The joy at the results playing out from making a "right" choice.
It's one of the reasons I look forward to Friday nights.
Many of the shows are geared toward having you choke up or cry at the end.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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But Paul Goldner, did you show this thread to male or female friends? *grin* Because one guy telling another guy that he 'gets' women means nothing, you know
Taal, congratulations on your first big step. Sometimes having a good cry is just about having a good cry (another insight for you).
I have a theory about intuition that I am certain I read somewhere, but don't know who to credit for it. It's something like this (if I can create a coherent sentence):
Female brains and male brains are generally different in one area (notice, I generalize): the hypothalumus (sp?). As I understand it, the hypothalumus connects the two lobes of the brain (right and left for those keeping track at home). In females, the hypothalumus is generally larger and busier. The electronic signals whiz back and forth on that puppy like corvettes on a very efficient freeway. Zoom!
Additionally, *everyone's* brain records information constantly, even when you (the brainkeeper) are not aware of it. There are things in your head that happened to you twenty years ago that you don't conciously remember, but are stuck there for all time. That's right, ALL TIME! So be careful what you put in your head. You can never be rid of it. That is why I try very hard to read only well-written fiction. It is also why I avoid watching 'The Apprentice'. I don't want Donald Trump in there!
Because there are all of these tiny bits of flotsam and jetsam in your brain, seemingly unrelated snippets of data, sometimes your electronic impulses organize them. You have a lot of brain, you know, and you don't conciously use very much of it throughout the day (even if you are Stephen Hawking! Really!), so it gets bored. And it organizes things.
Because some people (let's call them 'females', just for kicks) have superefficient hypothalumuses (hypothalumi?), things get organized better, and seemingly unrelated bits of data come together in a glorious conclusion, in an incorrectly deemed mystical process called 'intuition'.
Intuition is just the efficient organization of teeny bits of data that you didn't know you had in your head.
That is my theory, I hope it made sense.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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My sister and I used to laugh at our mom for crying at books. We’d beg for Old Yeller or Little Women as bedtime reading just so we could laugh at her. Then we hit our twenties and both started tearing up over books and movies. It’s very strange.
And I love Joan of Arcadia. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Does anyone else watch sad movies just so they can have some sort of reasonable justification to cry? I know I do... Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Congrats Taalcon on your first steps toward becoming a woman. Some hormone treatements and a little plastic surgery should complete the transition for you.
This is sage advice. Even if you think you have got a handle on some small part of it. Give it two months, it will bite you on the ass.
The best way to muddle through that I have found is to think--long and hard--about everything you say or do. And pray that you have remembered everything.
Posts: 1458 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Great. I told my parents you post and they asked me what show I was talking about and I told them Joan of Arcadia. Then they got mad at me for spoiling the show.
I'm on the west coast.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Up until now, I had been vehemently against watching Joan of Arcadia, but my daughter begged me last night to allow her to watch it, so I sat down with her to watch it with her. So this episode (that Taalcon talks about) was the first I had seen.
And it hit me extremely hard in an extremely personal way.
My daughter realized this (right after Joan's tirade of emotion at the debate) and came over and gave me a huge hug. She knew how hard I was trying NOT to cry.
Sometimes, kids are just wonderful. (especially daughters that are in tune with emotion).
posted
You DO 'get it' Taal, but I think it's more a human thing than a 'woman' thing. I know that's basically what you said, but some of the other posters missed it, I think.
quote:Intuition is just the efficient organization of teeny bits of data that you didn't know you had in your head.
That is my theory, I hope it made sense.
Well, it does to me, for what it's worth.
One of the things I've developed a reputation for is the occasional intuitive leap in the course of my work. A situation will develop and once in awhile an approach will formulate at once, along with a feeling that it's the "right" one. It's hard to describe the feeling of certainty. But I've come to trust them when they come and so have others who (for better or worse) trust me.
I'm usually able to analyze the intuitive leap over time - it's not magical. It's just that my brain has sorted through my knowledge of many different well-studied variables and let me know what it came up with - for some reason, "why" is left to sort out through a different set of processes.
But, then again, I have a certifiably weirdly-wired brain, so it could just be that I have a few too many crossed circuits.
For which I'm thankful - it seems to work for me. Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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The Aha insight is an interesting phenomenon. Many extremely important results in science have been described as coming to people in such a way. Ahas are great fun to get, too.
One of the things I loved about programming computers is that you are constantly doing a small-scale version of science. The program is behaving in some inexplicable way. Often you're positive there is no possible way it can be doing that. You play around with it and try to figure out how to get it to act that way consistently, add diagnostic code to the program, and so on, and it's usually doing something that seems completely impossible to you, from your knowledge of how it works.
Then bam, suddenly you just understand why. It's often ridiculously simple once you see it. And those ahas are usually right. What's funny, though, is that sometimes you get those feelings and they AREN'T right after all.
Often the aha comes for me first thing in the morning when I pick up again a problem I've been wrestling with the day before. I am convinced that my brain figures many things out while I'm asleep. Scientists tell these stories about thier most famous insights, and they will often come in a moment of rest or relaxation or play. When you've been working very hard on the problem, and then put it aside to think of something else for a while.
The guy who was trying to figure out the structure of benzene had a dream of snakes biting their tails that gave him the insight that the molecule was in the shape of a ring, for instance. Once for me when I was breaking a code on an MRI machine (while doing some reverse-engineering), I was at lunch and suddenly the word "circular" came out of my mouth. At that instant I realized the image was perhaps in the shape of a circle, and I tried it like that when I went back to work that afternoon and presto, a picture of someone's guts appeared on the screen. <laughs>
Ahas are great fun. They're always preceded by a feeling that's not very pleasant, one of struggling to understand something difficult that isn't making any sense. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance talked about that feeling, and how that's actually the feeling one should cultivate, and where one should enjoy being. That's where science gets done. It's the threshhold of knowledge. The place where the rubber of what is known contacts the tarmac of ignorance, so to speak. Where the diamond of understanding rubs against the vinyl of existence. Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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Good work, Taal! I love it when a guy applies his keen mind to better understanding the ladies. This all translates to a very (potentially) happy love life for you in the future!
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Hm. I wonder if there's a connection between the fact that I find Joan of Arcadia banal, manipulative, and cloying, and the fact that I don't have much religious faith and always second-guess my own emotions, even as I'm feeling them.
posted
I mysteriously cried during the credits of "White Oleander". It may have been because it sucked so bad, but I don't think so. (I keep trying to figure out why I think it sucked, and it keeps coming back to the fact that I cried, which doesn't make sense.) I couldn't figure out why I cried. Then I talked to a chick who had the same experience with the same movie. Did this happen to anyone else? Did this movie make anyone else feel like crap deep inside?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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It is an interesting exercise to try to indentify the make-up of scenes in books and films that make you cry or get emotional. What exactly in the situation is it that moves us, and are there any common themes that does so consistently.
For myself I've noticed that the situation that is most likely to move me to tears is when a character has been silently suffering for a long time and then another character for the first time notices and recognises this suffering. A good example might be when Mrs. Dashwood, Elinor and Marianne are led to believe that Edward Ferrars has married and Mrs. Dashwood first realises that Elinor has managed to hide from her that she's been as unhappily in love as Marianne.
I've been wondering if this suspectibility is a peculiarity of my own psychology or whether it is more generally applicable.
posted
I think what confused me was that I felt pretty annoyed/unmoved by the whole movie. But when it was over I bawled and bawled and couldn't figure out why. I literally started crying halfway through the credits. My friend and I have completely different backgrounds and go head-to-head in a lot of issues, but she had the same experience seemingly unprovoked. It didn't make much sense at all.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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PSI: I did that at the end of Forrest Gump. After the movie, my best friend and I spent half an hour in the bathroom, she patting my head and asking, "Is it just the movie?" and me sobbing my eyes out.
posted
If I had made any move after the Credits of In America began, I'd have cried myself a new river. I needed a few minutes to compose myself. Eyes got all moist, but at least the other theater attendants didn't need a canoe to leave.
And I know EXACTLY what it was that caused it. The FINAL shot of the movie. And no, I will not discuss any spoilers.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Talking about things that make you cry, I read The Little Prince again tonight and I'm trying to decide why it is so moving. Is it because you can feel the unexpressed feelings of the narrator?
Is it because he's trying to tell it simply and maybe you picture him trying hard not to cry himself?
I don't know. Maybe it's just the innocence.
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I haven't been able to watch Requiem for a Dream. I couldn't get past her son stealing her TV for drug money. But I was rather sad that day, so maybe I can get through it eventually. I've been unable to stand stuff like that less and less lately.
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Requiem for a Dream is crap. It's a poor excuse to wrangle characters into demeaning/horrifying situations for the sake of cool camera and editing stunts. (don't get me started on "the passion")
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Requiem is a great excuse to use cool camera and editing stunts for the sake of depicting the demeaning and horrifying situations of the characters. Highly effective, in my opinion.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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It's a independent film (this point is arguable) so what do you expect? Not that all independent film are bad, but some of the stuff that the studios stop you from doing is for a reason. (it is also arguable that more studio film are bad than independent films, but then there are more of them).
quote:This isn't sexism - it's an observaion
There very fact that this protestation has to be made indicates what it wrong with society.
[Edit: I just went and looked Requiem for a Dream up on imdb, to see why I remembered it. That the film that Aronofsky got the money to make because Pi was a success, so it would be interesting to see if would have been any better if he had only 60,000 to work with instead of the 4.5 million he had.]
posted
This is something that I have been wondering about myself for a while.
I have found that as the years go by, I am more and more likely to cry from a book or from a movie.
(Although I watch quite a bit of TV, I never sit down and give it my full attention, so it never has the ability to touch me the way a book or a movie does.)
I don't watch many movies anymore. But when I do take the time to do it, they have a pretty good chance of making me cry. This certainly did not used to be the case.
A few months ago, I read Folk of the Fringe for the first time since getting married and having kids. When I got to the part about Jamie Teague and his little brother and sister in the closet, I bawled for over half an hour, waking my wife up.
quote: There are many Men who view active emotions as a weakess. As something to surpress, because they rarely seem to 'jive' with imediate logic.
These guys don't have faith.
I don't think that emotions are a weakness, but they can become a weakness, depending on how you deal with them. I think that sometimes emotions should be embraced, sometimes repressed, sometimes savored, and somtimes controlled.
I am a big believer in being able to make rational decisions, whether or not that's what you *want* to do. Emotions are important and should be considered, but they should not be given free reign.
That's how I think about it, but it doesn't help me understand why I cry now but never used to. Maybe it's because my life is pretty happy now, so I never cry because of what's going on with me. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rapid degeneration on my part. Four years ago, the only book/work of art that had ever made me cry was Face the Dragon. Now...almost every movie makes me cry (and pretty much every serious movie does).
I shed a tear in Cold Mountain in the start, when the union soliders charged the confedrate position! (Why? Because the flag was so majestic and tragic. Countless people have died for it.)
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