posted
I love the ladder theory. It's so well thought out. It just suffers from one major flaw, it assumes it understands all men.
Yeah, I love sex. I see a girl and I sometimes say to myself "geez, I bet she's a minx in bed," but I don't let it color my relationships with women. I am not just a product of my desires. I can rise above them to be a better person. It's called being civilized.
The same can be said about the women's side. The desire for money/power, I believe, comes from maternal instict. If all men want to do is breed, all women want to do is make sure those offspring are well taken care of. If the man lacks money or power, then he cannot provide that feeling of security.
But, again, women can rise above this. They can find a guy who may be kind of a wuss, and may not be Mr Moneybags, but he cares about her and makes sure she's happy. It's not so black and white.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I just read the ladder theory for the first time. Is it ironic that my response is that I would never be interested in such a bitter, pessimistic, punk no matter how attractive, rich, or powerful he is?
"Things That Girls Say that Matter But Don't"
Meh.
He presumes to understand women also, PC. For instance, while it may be true that some women have two ladders, I have only ever had one. But the title of my ladder is "guys who I would date and maybe eventually marry". Any of my male "friends" had a shot at it. It is true that occasionally a guy would attach himself to me like a puppy dog. He never had a chance. But then, I wouldn't have called him a "friend" either. More someone I tolerated because I couldn't bring myself to say "take a hike".
Girls know when guys like them more often than guys realize. Those girls may even lead such men on. But it is only because they don't realize that doing so may be far more cruel than holding them off. They are too "nice" to be "cold".
posted
I mentioned the ladder at some previous point in another thread (to TomD). It's an interesting theory, more right than some suppose, and less right than others believe. The forums on the official ladder page are pretty sketchy/gross/icky. The men who post there are not the kind of men I'd voluntarily associate with.
But I definitely have female friends who work on the 2-ladder system, and a couple who only have one ladder. Most of my guy friends have the equivalent of one-ladder.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
While I have never seen his "ladder theory" before today, I myself have preached many of the underlying principles and even been criticized for so doing. He isn't "wrong" per se....
But he declares it to be How Things Are combined with disparaging and pessimistic comments about my fellow human beings. His underlying thrust is to men is, "don't let yourselves be intellectual whores" (intellectual whores=a male who is "just friends" to a desired female) and to women, "don't lead men on." I would prefer an underlying message of "rise above the animal inside you." In other words, men, don't depend so much on your rating-system of sexual attractiveness--foster attraction based on inner beauty, and women, look for romance in your wonderful male friends where you never would have thought to find it. If humanity did a better job at both these things there would be less frustrated men and women.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Is it just me or am I in a minority of people who don't immediately think of sex and getting laid when they think of relationships.... does anyone else here think more of compansionship than getting laid when the subject of relationships comes up?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Well, Alcon, as a girl, here was the progression.
Young teens - first stirrings of lust for the tall, dark and handsome types.
First boyfriend, no can do - just kisses and cuddles and thoughts of marriage.
18 and off to college - it was all about lust. Marriage was not even a remote consideration.
Mid-20's: a pleasant mixture of the two until a failed marriage came along.
Now I dream of the convent.
Moral: It's different at different stages for different people. The trick is in determining your actions and path.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Arsed... didn't mean thoughts of marrige. I'm not even gonna think about that till I'm at least halfway through college.
What I meant was, a large number of people who posted on this thread seemed to be of the opinion that having a bf/gf and getting laid were synonomous and the only or primary reason to have a bf/gf was so one could get laid. Am I just weird in thinking that there is something wrong with this picture...?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
all the people who talk about how the nice guys only go after the girls they can't get are so right. I've always had a thing for a particular "nice guy," and while we are friends, he has never thought of me in any other way. He has always been attracted to the girls that wouldn't talk to him if he was the last guy on the planet. I think thats the way most of those nice guys are, they don't appreciate a good thing if it's staring them in the face. I think its good to be a nice guy, but speaking for myself, I must say that being kind, and having a lot of confidence along with that is way more attractive than being a rebel thats cocky or being excessively "nice."
Posts: 18 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I find that a lot of nice guys have the problem described in the song below. It isn't a bad song but it annoys me because they don't get off their rear and do anything about liking the girl. They are content in their miserable adoration from afar that causes nothing but grief.
quote: She's So High Above Me Artist(Band):Fastball
She's blood, flesh and bone no tucks or silicone She's touch, smell, sight, taste and sound but somehow I can't believe that anything will happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen --- yeah.
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely. She's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, She's so high, high above me.
A first class ‘n’ fancy free, she's high society, she's got the best of everything. What could a guy like me ever really offer? She's perfect as she can be, why should I even bother --- Aha
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me
She comes to speak to me, I freeze immediately, 'cause what she says sounds so unreal, Somehow I can't believe, that anything should happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen, yeah ah ah
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me --- oh yeah
posted
You know, I really liked that song until I actually listened to the lyrics. I just find that kind of self effacing, self defeating attitude to be a little too nauseating for me to be able to enjoy it now that I've really listened to the song.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
yeah, Noemon it's got a catchy chorus but the exact same thing happened to me.
I much prefer this (and I suspect many girls would as far as the attitude of the writer goes)
quote: Short Skirt, Long Jacket By Cake
I want a girl with a mind like a diamond I want a girl who knows what's best I want a girl with shoes that cut And eyes that burn like cigarettes I want a girl with the right allocation Who's fast, and thorough, and sharp as a tack She's playing with her jewelry, she's putting up her hair She's touring the facility and picking up slack I want a girl with a short skirt, And a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong jacket
I want a girl who gets up early I want a girl who stays up late I want a girl with uninterrupted prosperity Who uses a Machete to cut through red tape With fingernails that shine like justice And a voice that is dark like tinted glass She is fast, thorough, and sharp as a tack She's touring the facility and picking up slack I want a girl with a short skirt, And a long, long jacket
I want a girl with a smooth liquidation I want a girl with good dividends At Citi Bank we will meet accidentally We'll start to talk when she borrows my pen She wants a car with a cup holder arm rest She wants a car that will get her there She's changing her name from Kitty to Karen She's trading her MG for a white Chrysler le barron I want a girl with a short skirt, And a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong jacket
posted
You know, I'm familiar with that one too--I know I am, I recognize the lyrics--but for some reason I'm hearing Lou Reed performing it when I read over it in my head. To the tune of "What's Good" from his Magic and Loss album.
quote:Life's like a mayonnaise soda And life's like space without room And life's like bacon and ice cream That's what life's like without you
Life's like forever becoming But life's forever dealing in hurt Now life's like death without living That's what life's like without you
Life's like Sanskrit read to a pony I see you in my mind's eye strangling on your tongue What good is knowing such devotion I've been around - I know what makes things run
What good is seeing eye chocolate What good's a computerized nose And what good was cancer in April Why no good - no good at all
What good's a war without killing What good is rain that falls up What good's a disease that won't hurt you Why no good, I guess, no good at all
What good are these thoughts that I'm thinking It must be better not to be thinking at all A styrofoam lover with emotions of concrete No not much, not much at all
What's good is life without living What good's this lion that barks You loved a life others throw away nightly It's not fair, not fair at all
posted
You know, I disagree with the circa 1982 iteration of myself on a lot of issues, but one thing that we have in common is our loathing of Air Supply.
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posted
I think you're right. That was my first thought too (well, not about Tal Bachman, but about it not being Fastball). I didn't think Fastball put out such crap [/opinion].
Posts: 609 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
(I have no idea about who the artist actually is or isn't I just googled "high above, Aphrodite and Joan of Arc and found the lyrics.)
The metaphors (or are they similes, I never remember,) in that song (Noemon's)are similar to the first one. But the way I interpret that song is otherwise just your standard breakup pining song. Though I guess you could look at it as pining for someone that he doesn't think he can get.
But the two songs that I posted are more specifically about the kind of women that they want.
They both want powerful, women, look at the names in the first one: Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Aphrodite (one of the most powerful goddesses)
None of those women whether mythical or historical were helpless. They were powerful in their own right though they gained their power in different ways. But the first author views them as "high above" him and unattainable. Interestingly, the only one of them who is a virgin is Joan of Arc, the other two were pretty down and dirty. Cleopatra used sex to gain more power (would you want a woman like that?) And Aphrodite had many liasions that normally ended up with the guy getting a broken heart.
Maybe what the song is saying is that it is easier to have someone high above you and on a pedestal than it actually is to put yourself out there and risk your emotions. But you don't get anywhere without taking risks. I personally don't have a lot of patience for self pity even in myself. (If I realize I am indulging in pity for myself then I get mad, and the anger overwhelms the pity.)
But look at the second song. He knows exactly what he wants. The first thing he talks about, despite the title, is "I want a girl with a mind like a diamond." And he goes on to describe her. He knows what he wants and why, and it seems like he realizes that if he gets her, she isn't going to stop what she's doing. He wants to come along on the adventure and he's figured out a way to approach her.
It doesn't ever indicate any fear or self pity in the way he talks about or approaches her. He knows he is going to have to work, to get her to notice him. But that is exactly it, he is working to get her to notice him. He's not sitting on his rear whining about how lofty she is and how he can never measure up. His whole approach to the situation is entirely different (and refreshing IMO).
We were having a discussion about something similar at KamaCon (that bugs me personally) People percieve me to be more intelligent than they are because of the manner in which I speak. I don't mean to use big words, I just read so much as a kid they pop out without thinking about it. I have consciously toned it down, but I wasn't doing that at Kama Con so much because I knew people would understand me. I have friends, both here on Hatrack and IRL that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt are smarter than me, and they still won't believe me. It drives me crazy, that they (both male and female) put me up on this "intelligent" pedestal, high above them.
Steve's the only guy I've known who has never done that. Guess it is why I'm with him.
AJ
(and that whole diatribe doesn't mean I know how to spell the word "intelligent" right the first time either...)
quote:I don't mean to use big words, I just read so much as a kid they pop out without thinking about it. I have consciously toned it down, but I wasn't doing that at Kama Con so much because I knew people would understand me. I have friends, both here on Hatrack and IRL that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt are smarter than me, and they still won't believe me. It drives me crazy, that they (both male and female) put me up on this "intellegient" pedestal, high above them.
First, please, please believe me, Banna, when I say that I'm really talking only about myself here, and not trying to imply anything about your.
When I was in my early to mid 20s, I would have said the exact same thing (minus the Hatrack bit, because I hadn't discovered the place at that point). In fact, I did say it on a number of occasions, and journaled about the frustration I felt about it. In retrospect, though, I think that what I was actually doing was unconsciously wrapping myself in the aura of apparent intelligence through my choice of words and sentence structure. I did have a lot of people snowed into thinking that I was brighter than I really was. Basically, I was scared of people, and was used to using my intelligence as armor, and of magnifying my apparent intelligence as a way of making the armor look more imposing. Interestingly (or uninterestingly) enough, I privately thought that I wasn't all that intelligent (probably because I was brought up in a family where intelligence was the most highly prized trait, and my brother was the one recognized as a genius). It was only after I let go of all of that and just accepted myself for who I was that I realized that I was actually much more intelligent than I'd ever given myself credit for, although also much less intelligent than the persona I had projected in the past.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Actually, Banna, the lyrics I posted are about a guy (Lou Reed) mourning the loss of a friend that had recently died of cancer. I seem to remember that a number of his friends died shortly before he made that album, and that the whole depressing thing was a response to that. I may be misremembering though--it may have just been the one friend.
posted
Wow, that is fascinating Noemon. I never thought of it that way because it was so foreign from my experience. If I actually donned my "intelligence" as an armor or a costume, I'm sure I could sound 10 times more "intelligent" (although considerably stuffier) than I do now. If anything I have put on the armor the other direction and consciously tried to alter my speech from its natural form in order to not seem so stuffy.
I hope I'm more than a brain on legs. I have had to fight the people that want to say that I am so so smart, in order to get them to see me as a human. The people who have been my friends IRL for any length of time eventually come out of their awe and realize my humanity. (and they are much better friends once they do) "Pulling an AJ" in their lingo means they've tripped over something and fallen flat on their face or that their Velveeta has taken on a life of its own and escaped the pan (though so far it has only done that to me) or any number of other Inspector Clousseau type debacles has happened to them.
Honestly, I'm glad they invented the term. Because it meant they saw me as a person with flaws like anyone else, and they weren't intimidated by me anymore.
posted
You would think that from the context, wouldn't you? The wildly different subjects of the two songs was part of the reason I was so surprised when I heard that Cake song being performed by Lou Reed in my head. I'm still not having any luck pulling up the *actual* rendition of the song.
posted
You know, it's interesting--the other thing that people knew me for, other than being very intelligent, was bumbling around, tripping, dropping stuff, having credulity-straining accidents and the like. Part of a script I was playing out, I think, because I'm not really that way anymore. Isn't it funny how we had these things in common, but had completely different--polar opposite, really--motivations for them?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
In defense of High Above Me (or whatever it's called, I'm too lazy to scroll up) it isn't really whining. I hear him as dreamily singing about to the sky, not whining to his friends. A lot of people go through the pedestal phase where you crush on someone and hold them up to lofty ideals. And there's nothing wrong with figuring out what you want; you quickly learn what a real person is.
And, as I've said to you before in a much different context, banna, sometimes a dream is much more valuable to you than the reality would be (yes, I realize it can be unhealthy when taken to a point). I just remember my first crush (Charina, starting when I was 12 and for several years after that). I knew nothing about her but had her up on this huge pedestal in my mind. I never made a move, and don't regret not doing so for a second. Having a secret crush can be a lot of fun and it made me happy to dream about. In many ways I really miss the feeling. Ah the heart, she follows no rules *le sigh* (not that Noemon doesn’t count) That feeling is what this song makes me think about (or would, if I liked the music enough to make it through the first verse).
So, basically, you let your experiences colour the song your way and I'll let mine colour it my way, you bitter, wizened old witch
And yes, Cake is still cool.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Lol, and I know that part of the reason why I'm so klutzy is because I had so many ear infections as a child, it has affected my sense of balance. When I'm in a medium like the water where balance doesn't matter as much, I'm actually graceful.
(Though people have told me to make me feel better that whatever tumble I just took was the most graceful fall they'd seen in a while.)
"You placed me high . . . upon a pedastal So high that I could almost see eternity You needed me You needed me . . . "
Not sure what to think of that one - my mom and I used to sing that sone together delivering the Sunday newspapers on her route . . . it was one of the few times we felt connected -
hmmm, wanders back off to work . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
But BtL, given the "nice guy" context of the thread, I suspect many of the people that we are referring to as "nice guys" are stuck in the pedestal phase, and can't find, beg, borrow or steal a ladder. Or find a slide to get her down from it. Being on a pedestal gets pretty darned uncomfortable. And since I have no balance I'd just as soon fall off it as be stuck up there anyway.
quote: And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break a relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately.
This seems to me the difference between a nice guy and a Nice guy. Wouldn't a truly nice guy, if he thought you were with a dork, say so and have no compunction about splitting the two of you up, if only to save you from the dork? But a Nice guy is too afraid of rejection. Not to say m_p_h is Nice . Of course, he was at BYU where leather wearing alcoholics are in relative short supply.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
You know, I'm the exact opposite in water. I have a really good sense of my personal space. I can dance, I have good running form, I juggle. I just generally move well. As soon as I'm in water my limbs don't move as I'd expect them to and I get completely thrown off. You'd never guess I've got 10 years of swimming lessons under my belt. I just can't make my arms and legs move properly. It's unbelievably frustrating and makes me sympathize a great deal with those who have the opposite problem.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Back to the subject. I understand what you mean about the dreams and the "pedestal" phase. But the problem is that dreams can get stagnant and mucky and turn into nightmares even in beautiful settings.
AJ
(and stagnation in general in people just ticks me off)
posted
Darn it, woman! You know I agree with you on the lameness of nice guys. But this was my one and only shot at appearing sensitive for the ladies. And since I wasn't at KamaCon to ply my charms in person this thread was all I had left.
posted
Sure, lots of people get stuck in the dream phase. But that's a sign of an underlying problem, not with having the dream in the first place. There are plenty of things in life that turn sour if you stick around them for too long, dreams are just one that most people seem to have very little patience for.
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posted
I'm pretty sure there are several posts in this thread where I say that "nice guy" means "me" and the "jerks" she's going out with are "not me." Granted there are some mental acrobatics involved to get me to agree with your Whiny-Singer-Boy post, but they aren't complicated leaps. Heck, I'm sure even I flip turn would get you there Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
pooka, it was me who said that. And I wasn't talking about breaking up relationships with a "jerk". If you take another look at that post, I was talking about specific situations that did actually happen, where guys or girls (yeah, guys don't monopolize this) took advantage of the fact that the other person had a long distance relationship. And by that, I mean one was here in France for his or her studies, and the other one was back in Romania. So they got to see each other three times a year, or even less. That's what I'm talking about. As I've also said in that previous post, these things couldn't have happened without everybody's approval, but it still seems to me like taking advantage of the other person's sucky situation.
As for splitting someone from a "dork", as you said: yeah, you can do that if you really care abuot the person. But ! Do you go on afterwards and take advantage of all the emotions that result from a break-up ? Do you make your move then ? I think that's a pretty lame thing to do. I know it's walking a really thin line there, as helping someone get out of a bad relationship would automaticly raise you in his/her eyes. But still...
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think dreams can inspire. Without dreams the world would be insipid. It isn't having the dream that is bad in and of itself. It is allowing the dream to run your life, or become so unattainable that you despair. At that point you have a choice. You either relinquish the dream (sometimes it is gradual and you don't realize you have until after you've done it) or you start working to meet the goal. Wallowing around in despair is highly unproductive, and that is the bit that I don't have patience for.
quote: A lot of people go through the pedestal phase where you crush on someone and hold them up to lofty ideals.
Tsk. I'm a man, Bobble, just a man, with all that that implies. Besides, there's things about me you don't know, Bobble. Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you...shouldn't understand.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I remembered a book I wanted to tell everyone about for quite awhile, and especially after this and all the other nice girls/guys threads started. It's called "Essays in Love" by Alain de Botton. It's in English in original (the author lives in London).
It's quite an interesting book, it wants to be a novel but it is full of common sense philosophy. I found myself agreeing with so many things I read in there, I've done so many of them (good or - especially - bad), that I felt like reading my life journal.
So read it. Who knows what you'll find in there that you knew all along, but never had the words for ?!
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