posted
So I've noticed, bev... Probably a reminiscence from the Knight in shining armor period - or before. Picking the man who shows he's the strongest, most willing to fight for her. Well, in a society that calls itself civilized (or "not acting like animals anymore"), I find this kind of attitude disappointingly imature.
Edit: I think I become too bitter. I need to get some sleep...
posted
You know, it’s funny. I always dated nice guys. Sweet and respectful and worshipful (an old requirement for nice guy), who would never even think of looking at another woman while with me. And I never loved any of them. I used to think I needed a bad boy to make me feel passion and intensity, but I was never willing to go out with the jerks who met my bad boy requirements. So I never felt anything real in any of my relationships. Then, I met my best friends’ ex-husband. He met all the bad boy physical requirements, tall, dark, brooding, and handsome beyond words. And, according to her, he met all the other requirements as well. They were still friends, but had had a bad relationship. He had cheated on her, and she on him. Nasty all around. So, he became nothing but friend material. We went everywhere together, and I set him up with my girlfriends. I watched him date beautiful, aggressive women who treated him like absolute crap. One of them actually hit him on a regular basis (he had to restrain me from exacting vigilante justice when I heard that). And he always came back to me. We would fall asleep together on the couch watching movies, and he would wake up and make me breakfast. This whole time, I had a huge crush on him, but I was the “nice girl”, not nearly in his league physically, but fun to be with and a good standby. This was a new experience for me, and it SUCKED! It was heartbreaking to watch him beat himself up over women who weren’t good enough to lick his boots, knowing I could make him happy. But I never said anything because I had no desire to humiliate myself. We moved in together, and made perfect roommates. I had distanced myself completely from my feelings for him so I could bear to live with him, and it worked out pretty well, except when he would come out of the bathroom wearing a nothing but a towel and sit and read. Damn you oblivious men. Anyways, blah blah blah, we made it a month with everything being easy. Then, one night at a friends house, we played drunken spin the bottle. He kissed me, and I kissed him. And that was it. We’ve been going out for two years. He told me that he had been in love with me from the beginning, but didn’t think he was good enough for me, plus I was his ex-wives best friend and knew every single one of his nastiest secrets. He had told himself that he had to be content with friendship, and the women he dated were all that he deserved. It killed me to hear that. If I had had the balls right at the start to say what I was feeling, I could have spared him and myself a lot of pain. He has his issues, and is still a “bad boy”. But he is also the nicest, most considerate man I have ever met. HE would give me that last piece of chicken;). I still get dirty and confused looks from women when we go out, but he makes me feel like only I exist for him.
So, you nice guys, consider whether it’s your pride and fear of rejection that’s keeping you from aggressively pursuing the object of your love. All too often, we apply ridiculous, or not so ridiculous, parameters to our loves, which limit us and blind us to the reality of what we could have.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Corwin, in our more civilized day and age, fighting doesn't necessarily involve attacking each other. But women want to know just how much they mean to a man. And if he is willing to go through a lot to have her, she knows that he means it.
Foundling, that was an awesome story. Thank you for sharing it!
quote:(In other words, women who only date jerks but pick nice, stable men as friends turn nice, stable men into sneaky, manipulative jerks out of desperation -- but many men who appear stable would probably appear much jerkier if they didn't have to pretend to be "nice" to get any attention at all.)
Well, I very rarely act on the sneaky, manipulative feelings in my head, but they're there.
This past summer, I decided to drop the nice guy thing, and just be my jerky, horny, basically inconsiderate self. That didn't really work, either.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Thanks, Beverly. I didnt realize quite how long it was till I posted it. By the way, yours and MPHs story was beautiful. I read it and never posted a reply, but I loved it.
And Foust, I hate to say this, but "most" women can spot insincerity a mile away. It amazes me how many men believe that those sneaky, manipulative thoughts arent written on your forehead . Sounds like you havent been comfortable being yourself, and then when you finally let go, maybe you went over board in the opposite direction. But I think most women will prefer honest ***holes to sneaky sweethearts anyday. So keep up the good work and balance yourself out.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Kat, like most things "nice guy" is context dependent. I'm pretty adamant, though, that someone bemoaning how they're a "nice guy" is whining about how their infatuation isn't going out with them. That's it. "Jerk," means "not me." And they would never do the things "not them" do that hurt "girl-on-pedestal." Generally they are needy, passive aggressive and all the things Tom and others have listed. But they'll never change because the cling to their "nice guy" sense of self to avoid making any real change. Again, look at Tom's post where he said he didn't become a good person until he stopped being "nice."
It's less about how they treat others as it is about their own psychological hang-ups.
On the other hand, someone like Porter who is saying, "hey, I'm a nice guy and chicks dig me" (or words to that effect) means "nice" in the dictionary sense. Kind, caring, generous, selfless, etc. etc.
All of this, of course, is nothing but my professional humble opinion.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
You're probably right, Foundling. But I can't shake the feeling that if I'm not nice, that I'll be ignored or dismissed. I have no clue how to find a balance.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I think the above quote from Porter came from Groundhog Day when the gal is listing off the traits of her ideal man. Can anyone confirm it?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Oh, and on the above "funnies", I think that the sentiment of "lowering your expectations" is too disparaging. I prefer "finding beauty and wonder" where it was not originally apparent; Finding the Prince or Princess in the frog.
*makes frog like noises*
Posts: 213 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Don't worry if the other person likes you. Be yourself, don't be mean, but if a response in needed, don't say what you think they want to hear. Just react honestly. If that means you are rude or selfish, then work on some personal qualities and try again.
People can really tell when someone's faking it. Besides, if you're faking it and they like it, the price is that you'll never be able to STOP faking it. Who wants that?
posted
I was the "nice guy" who had to watch all his friends get the girls, and then feel even worse watching them treat the girls like toilet paper. i was often closer to their girlfriends than they were, and it sucked all around.
I did the "friend" thing for a couple of years with a girl named Trish, and it was the best and worse times of my life (at that point), because I really cared for her.
Eventually the tables were turned, and I was the one who didn't trust her enough to be with her, and it turned real bad really fast.
It tool me literaly 3 years to recover from it, and I almost made the biggest mistake of my life because of it.
I ingored the woman I ended up marrying for 2 and 1/2 years, because she reminded me too much of Trish.
They were so much alike it was just too scary, and I ducked and ran for cover. Jenni and I worked together, and that is the only reason we still saw each other, the only way we met and/or saw each other.
Then one day I realized that I might be passing on something great. So I asked her out....
and we never looked back.
She is the best thing that ever happened to me, even on her worst day, an I am lucky beyond belief to have her.
So don't worry...sometimes it is the timing that is off...but sometimes it is you.
There is hope for all "nice" guys, provided they don't lose faith in themselves.
And for every nive guy, I am sure there is a nice girl out there that feels the same.
posted
This is an interesting topic and its taken me a while to slog my way through it. But here is what I came up with.
First off, "nice" and "jerk" are both completely relative terms. Depending on a number of things including: who is doing the speaking, who is the spoken of, and what the spoken of and the speaker think of each other.
As an example I'll use myself. I have been told more times than I can count, by many of my female friends(and my gf) that I am a very nice, kind, great guy. However, these are who I consider friends and who I think highly of and like. There are several people, friends of friends or people I know whom I don't much get alone with. They drive me up the wall for reasons not entirely apparent. To them I am the epitome of jerk. I'm harsh, rude, sarcastic, unforgiving, and basicially an asshole. So to those whom I like and who like me I can be a great person. But to those who I don't like and who don't like me, I'm an ass.
Considering there are only (*counts on hand*) about three or four people whom I don't like enough as to be an asshole to, I'd consider myself a nice guy. And therefore, in response to the first post: the nice guys do sometimes get the girl... I did Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Wasn't this explained by some genius scientist back in the late 1800s? Nice guys = low sperm count where as bad asses have better sperm. It's been proven by science.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Well since testosterone has been linked to aggression and competetiveness, especially in this area...
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I don't think it is quite that easy, and even if it were I would need a lot more than your assertion that is was.
A lot of it is very subjective, not biological at all. Not every guy who is nice comes across as nice to others, just like not every jerk comes across that way immediately.
Also, some of it depends on the reasoning behind the actions. You can say that it is wrong to hit a woman.....but what about a woman who is being physically abusive to a guy.....doesn't he have a right to defend himself too?
I had a friends ex-girlfriend run me off the road, drunk off her kazoo, on the highway at about 60 mph (no relation to our mph.. ). When i stopped, she did, and jumped out of her car...or started to, anyway. i beat her to it, and slammed her back into her car, then slammed the car door into her. I wanted to punch her, I I wouldn't have been too off base there, I think....we almost died. I actually spun out avoiding her! But I didn't....
I am also sure she told her friends I beat her up, and I was over reacting. I heard her say it....lol...
Let me be clear though...viloence isn't a good thing, ever. it's just sometimes the only thing that can keep you alive until you can get away.
I am just using that as an example of how my friend and I felt I had been fairly restrained, but she thought I was an idiot.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I thought the Somalian was trying to be funny. But then again, it is so hard to tell sometimes....
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I'm not advocating being a jerk, but one way to becoming a healthy human being is to not let yourself get too involved in something that isn't worth it. Most "nice guys" are obsessed with whatever girl they're currently trying to spend time with. They don't realize that by NOT spending so much time with the girl who's not going to give them any, they're actually being a better person. Spend time with other women. Hang out with guys. Do anything other than spend time with that woman. She might actually come to appreciate your presense once it is missed. If not, who gives a crap. You'll probably have long since met some really groovy chick who thinks you're pretty swank yourself, and you'll forget about what's-her-face.
Seriously. If the girl is not your girlfriend, and you spend time with other girls, you're not cheating on her. She's not your girlfriend.
posted
I am by no means perfect at this sort of thing. I certainly have self-esteem issues (I keep wondering if beverly is being sarcastic, for instance) that used to make me quake at asking girls out or whatever, but I usually just sucked it up and asked. I got hurt a few times by girls who were less than sensitive to the subject, and most of the time when I'd ask I'd have sweaty palms or a quiver in my voice, but in most cases it was worth the effort. I then had closure and knew whether or not to move on, or at least got a clearer understanding of the girl's own intentions.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
PC, I was not being sarcastic. I think you had some good advice there. Perhaps I believe in it because I have seen it in my husband and it works.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I love the ladder theory. It's so well thought out. It just suffers from one major flaw, it assumes it understands all men.
Yeah, I love sex. I see a girl and I sometimes say to myself "geez, I bet she's a minx in bed," but I don't let it color my relationships with women. I am not just a product of my desires. I can rise above them to be a better person. It's called being civilized.
The same can be said about the women's side. The desire for money/power, I believe, comes from maternal instict. If all men want to do is breed, all women want to do is make sure those offspring are well taken care of. If the man lacks money or power, then he cannot provide that feeling of security.
But, again, women can rise above this. They can find a guy who may be kind of a wuss, and may not be Mr Moneybags, but he cares about her and makes sure she's happy. It's not so black and white.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I just read the ladder theory for the first time. Is it ironic that my response is that I would never be interested in such a bitter, pessimistic, punk no matter how attractive, rich, or powerful he is?
"Things That Girls Say that Matter But Don't"
Meh.
He presumes to understand women also, PC. For instance, while it may be true that some women have two ladders, I have only ever had one. But the title of my ladder is "guys who I would date and maybe eventually marry". Any of my male "friends" had a shot at it. It is true that occasionally a guy would attach himself to me like a puppy dog. He never had a chance. But then, I wouldn't have called him a "friend" either. More someone I tolerated because I couldn't bring myself to say "take a hike".
Girls know when guys like them more often than guys realize. Those girls may even lead such men on. But it is only because they don't realize that doing so may be far more cruel than holding them off. They are too "nice" to be "cold".
posted
I mentioned the ladder at some previous point in another thread (to TomD). It's an interesting theory, more right than some suppose, and less right than others believe. The forums on the official ladder page are pretty sketchy/gross/icky. The men who post there are not the kind of men I'd voluntarily associate with.
But I definitely have female friends who work on the 2-ladder system, and a couple who only have one ladder. Most of my guy friends have the equivalent of one-ladder.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
While I have never seen his "ladder theory" before today, I myself have preached many of the underlying principles and even been criticized for so doing. He isn't "wrong" per se....
But he declares it to be How Things Are combined with disparaging and pessimistic comments about my fellow human beings. His underlying thrust is to men is, "don't let yourselves be intellectual whores" (intellectual whores=a male who is "just friends" to a desired female) and to women, "don't lead men on." I would prefer an underlying message of "rise above the animal inside you." In other words, men, don't depend so much on your rating-system of sexual attractiveness--foster attraction based on inner beauty, and women, look for romance in your wonderful male friends where you never would have thought to find it. If humanity did a better job at both these things there would be less frustrated men and women.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Is it just me or am I in a minority of people who don't immediately think of sex and getting laid when they think of relationships.... does anyone else here think more of compansionship than getting laid when the subject of relationships comes up?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Well, Alcon, as a girl, here was the progression.
Young teens - first stirrings of lust for the tall, dark and handsome types.
First boyfriend, no can do - just kisses and cuddles and thoughts of marriage.
18 and off to college - it was all about lust. Marriage was not even a remote consideration.
Mid-20's: a pleasant mixture of the two until a failed marriage came along.
Now I dream of the convent.
Moral: It's different at different stages for different people. The trick is in determining your actions and path.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Arsed... didn't mean thoughts of marrige. I'm not even gonna think about that till I'm at least halfway through college.
What I meant was, a large number of people who posted on this thread seemed to be of the opinion that having a bf/gf and getting laid were synonomous and the only or primary reason to have a bf/gf was so one could get laid. Am I just weird in thinking that there is something wrong with this picture...?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
all the people who talk about how the nice guys only go after the girls they can't get are so right. I've always had a thing for a particular "nice guy," and while we are friends, he has never thought of me in any other way. He has always been attracted to the girls that wouldn't talk to him if he was the last guy on the planet. I think thats the way most of those nice guys are, they don't appreciate a good thing if it's staring them in the face. I think its good to be a nice guy, but speaking for myself, I must say that being kind, and having a lot of confidence along with that is way more attractive than being a rebel thats cocky or being excessively "nice."
Posts: 18 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I find that a lot of nice guys have the problem described in the song below. It isn't a bad song but it annoys me because they don't get off their rear and do anything about liking the girl. They are content in their miserable adoration from afar that causes nothing but grief.
quote: She's So High Above Me Artist(Band):Fastball
She's blood, flesh and bone no tucks or silicone She's touch, smell, sight, taste and sound but somehow I can't believe that anything will happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen --- yeah.
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely. She's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, She's so high, high above me.
A first class ‘n’ fancy free, she's high society, she's got the best of everything. What could a guy like me ever really offer? She's perfect as she can be, why should I even bother --- Aha
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me
She comes to speak to me, I freeze immediately, 'cause what she says sounds so unreal, Somehow I can't believe, that anything should happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen, yeah ah ah
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me --- oh yeah
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