quote: If I weren't already not Christian, such a hateful message as that would certainly drive me away.
If this is true, then all it should take to make you a Christian is a hatfull message from anti-Christians.
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I have way too much faith in the decency of human kind to believe that this is for real.
But it IS funny.
quote: Make your own Mr. Gruff the Atheist goat. Children can keep him on their desks and practice witnessing techniques on him in between homework. Mr. Gruff comes with a coffee mug that he can hold. (Do not use mug with Lambuel figure. Lambuel thinks coffee is yucky!)
Requires: 1 sheet of paper or card stock, scissors, hobby knife, scoring tool, glue.
quote: Jesus has just risen and He's ready for adventures in Faith! Behold His nail holes (John 20:27)! Whether helping your children save Mr. Gruff or just hanging out on the dashboard of your car, this Jesus action figure will bring hours of enjoyment and Faith-based fun!
Requires: 1 sheet of paper or card stock, scissors, hobby knife, scoring tool, glue.
Coming soon: Doubting Thomas figure with finger-poking action and Galilee playset!
quote: Make a nail just like the ones used by the Romans to crucify Our Lord. A thought-provoking project that will impress upon your children the suffering that Jesus went through on their behalf. Makes a great Christmas ornament!
Caution: Pointy edges. Not for children under 5.
Requires: 1 sheet of paper or card stock, scissors, scoring tool, glue or tape.
posted
We discovered this site last year when presented with the "Creationist Science Fair" article.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I know about landover. (Actually, IIRC, I was one of the very first people here, if not the first, to expose that one as parody when someone took it seriously.) Is this site run by them? I didn't get the impression that it was. What did I miss?
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posted
Icarus, Lambuel is on the Landover site. Whether they created it or not, I am unsure. You have to go to the kiddie section.
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posted
Icarus, I remember the whole creationist science fair thing. I remember a lot of people being duped for a while, not just one person. However, the site IS linked to Lambuel, and I used to be able to find it through the website. Now I can't. But when you go to the Lambuel site, you can link to Landover, sort of. The link is "Landover shutdown." Maybe it is another parody site which is NOT LAndover, but which is pretending to treat Landover as a serious church. If you read that link, it is obviously a hoax.
Does the Landover site, perhaps, act as sort of a clearing-house for religious parodies?
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posted
Actually, Dag, I see it more as a parody of the hate toward nonChristians in some Christian churches. But I do think it gets pretty nasty.
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posted
Why do you assume that is their mission? Would you feel the same about political parody/satire like the Onion? (honestly curious, not trying to needle)Do you think all parody or satire is hateful? (I am not saying it isn't mean, I just donl;t think it is hateful)
I do not see this as an attack on all Christians. It is an attack, if it is an attack, on hateful ones.
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posted
I don't know if it is intended to be hateful, but it certainly is irresponsible:
quote:Here is what you need to do to get your free Play Station 2:
1. Tell Jesus that you hate your parents, and that you'd rather have Him for your Daddy. Ask Him to forgive your sins, and cover you with His blood (you'll see plenty of that splattered across your TV when you play your complimentary Grand Theft Auto 3 game!).
2. Find one of your Mom or Dad's credit cards (a blank check is even better!)
3. Call our church office and we will provide you with simple instructions on how to use your parents' credit card to charge a love offering over the phone. Don't worry if you can't find a credit card. We can teach you how to use one of your daddy's checks to do an automatic draft withdrawal (which will get you free shipping and an extra game disk!)
To make it all better, the small print on the bottom of the page:
quote:The Landover Baptist website is not intended to be viewed by anyone under 18
With titles like "get a free playstation 2" don't they think kids will stumble into this page via Google? I know adults think this is funny as hell, but imagine the confused 8 year-old trying to figure out whether it is ok to "borrow" dad's credit card if Jesus said it was ok.
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"but imagine the confused 8 year-old trying to figure out whether it is ok to "borrow" dad's credit card if Jesus said it was ok."
My eight year-old is supervised on the Internet.
How about the PBS fundraisers, when they have an Arthur marathon. "Kids, go get your parents, and have them buy this video..." That is real. This is fake. Jesus really ISN'T there to take their card number.
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posted
Your eight-year old is lucky. But not all parents monitor internet usage. Some people turn on net nanny programs that filter out porn and profanity, which might not catch this site.
There's a difference between "go bug your parents" and "steal your parent's credit card because Jesus said it is ok."
YOU know this site is fake. But didn't someone just say that a similar website fooled a couple of people at Hatrack? I assume we are smarter than eight year-olds.
Edited to add: I just hate to be the parent trying to explain to a kid that he has to return his Metal Gear Solid because some smartass was pretending to be Jesus.
[ August 24, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
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quote:Why do you assume that is their mission? Would you feel the same about political parody/satire like the Onion? (honestly curious, not trying to needle)Do you think all parody or satire is hateful? (I am not saying it isn't mean, I just donl;t think it is hateful)
I do not see this as an attack on all Christians. It is an attack, if it is an attack, on hateful ones.
The Onion is different because it goes after everyone, and it's parody is contained within the individual articles.
Landover is hateful because it's intent is to demonize. It might be targeted at only a few "hateful" religions, but it's more of a shotgun than a rifle and manages to hit a lot people who aren't like that.
Most of the people I know who like that site don't differentiate between those who "deserve" it and those who don't. And their description of the targets of the parody is "Christians," not hateful Christians.
As for Lamuel, look at Justa's reaction to Habu. If it's a real site, then it's perceived as hateful by at least some people. If it's parody, then the effect it is having is to make the people they're parodying look hateful.
As a matter of fact, I had seen that article about the creationist science fair going around as a forward before it came here. I tried to search for it, but it was last summer.
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posted
Grr. I know this is connected to Landover, and I remember finding that it was.
Anyway, I see what you mean, Dag. I can see this site as a site to pretend to be parody, but really use that parody as a way to harm. (is there a name for that?) Not many people would search around frantically like I am trying to do, and would think it is real.
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posted
Yes! I've only seen one episode I though had no redeeming comedic value, and that was the "Passion of Christ" episode. They wanted to get their message out that they let it get in the way of the elements of satire.
Before I get jumped on for picking that particular episode, remember they had one on pedophilia in the Catholic Church that was actually much more offensive.
posted
Please, don't remind me of South Park "chicken" incident in my classroom. Actually, DO remind me, then I will be happy I will not be teaching the "naughty boys" this year.
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posted
Actually, just because one person percieves it as hateful does not constitute evidence that the site is hateful to many people. There is a certain point beyond which parody is hateful. That point is probably subjective and is certainly different for those people who belong to that group. I think by its nature, parody is at least going to appear hateful to some people of the group that is being parodied.
So, is parody that targets one group always 'hateful'? Possibly. Most humor does contain elements of pain in it.
I can see the 'hate' in the landover site, because it blows up, or makes up, Christian attitudes in rather vulgar ways, but the lambuel site is something that I can't find hate in,really. Just one that pokes fun at certain attitudes that some Christians really *do* have. I can tell you that for a fact because I had a fun discussion with a couple of pentecostals at my work this weekend. As has already been mentioned, it's hard to tell that it's not a real Christian site.
At some point, we have to kind of tone down the 'hate' rhetoric or hate really loses its meaning, I think. I think there has to be room for groups to poke fun at each other. For whites to poke fun of blacks, blacks to poke fun of whites, Christians-heathens, etc. However, I agree that it shouldn't go 'too far'.
Where is the line? I'm not entirely sure. Any ideas?
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posted
OK, that show definitely needs adult supervision. I certainly wouldn't want my kids wondering around asking people if they had any Jewish candy.
quote: Jesus often admits he doesn't have all the answers, and sometimes simply declines to intervene in the world, as when the South Park Elementary School's football team is being shut out by a rival.
Jesus, who addresses God as "Dad," also has his lighter moments. While singing in a local nightclub, he twirls his halo on his finger. Perhaps because it's so over-the-top in its mocking of religion, much like Monty Python's "Life of Brian," "South Park" has largely escaped criticism from evangelicals.
***
And Jesus can be short-tempered. His phone-in TV show is called "Jesus and Pals," and the host always knows who's calling. When one caller asks how Jesus knows his name, Jesus snaps, "Well, maybe it's because I'm the Son of God, Brainiac!"
In the end, the "South Park" gospel is simple, the watered-down antithesis of belief in things unseen. Stan's dad, Randy, explains it best: "The only heaven we can hope for is one here on Earth, now. We should stop waiting to get into heaven, and start trying to create it."
I think the line will always be drawn differently for each person. I have a high tolerance for satire, and for being teased, but I am not a particularly mean person, and feel like poo when I actually offend someone by teasing.
Some people have a very hard time even catching satire, or plays on words. They are just very linear thinkers. My son is like that. He is only eight, but we have to be extremely careful of kidding around with him. I think he will always be that way, to some extent.
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posted
Wow, Storm, that is a very potent question. I am thinking of the incident at sakeriver that I was part of exacerbating where those pro-parenthood and those anti-parenthood each assumed the other was being offensive when no offense was intended. I think that Beren's quote has a good point that being totally over the top can help. Also, while South Park manages to be really offensive, the way it makes fun of both sides at the same time leaves people feeling that at least they were mocked fairly.
I think we are more likely to take good-natured ribbing when the one doing the ribbing shows that they don't take themselves too seriously.
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posted
I was thinking, and I think that sites which are on the same level of satire as the lambuel site are Scott Ott's site and Mallard Fillmore. Clearly, both are lampooning liberals for attitudes that they really do have. But hate filled? No way.
By the way, I'm not saying that sites like this, or satire like this, should be posted here regularly, as they are biased, and we do have a mixed community of people here. I'm not saying occasionally isn't o.k., but not every day or even probably every week.
posted
I agree the line is fuzzy. BUT, if someone thinks the Habu thing is hateful when they think it's real, then they're almost honor-bound to think the site is hateful in the other direction when they think it's a parody.
Thinking one is hateful and not thinking the other is hateful would be hypocritical, I think.
posted
Sorry, you all haven't convinced me. I have read several of the articles linked to by the jesussave site, incluiding the one on Landover, and I see nothing that makes me think it's a parody.
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quote:The OBJECTIVE: Christian Ministries website has been getting some discussion recently (see Gert and Green Fairy, among others), mainly on the subject of if it's a joke or not.
OK, so I took a few minutes to look into it and I'm pretty sure it's a parody. First, look at the members page and check all the email addresses listed. All of them are at free, easily obtained, Hotmail-esque servers - none of them list a 'regular' or home email. Plus, the pictures don't look quite right as if they've been slightly photoshopped to make them so they're not real people. Also, while they refer to other organisations that people supposedly belong to, or are supported by, there's no reference to them anywhere else on the web - at least according to Google. For instance, Fellowship University, the Fairlight Institute and the Creation Science Museum of Cleveland only seem to exist on their site.
Plus, their statistics are open to public view and the referrer logs show a distinct lack of referrals from any Christian sites. In short, it's a parody, but an extremely good one and harder to spot outright as one than Landover Baptist - kind of like the 'Net Authority' that fooled me (and a few other people) a few years ago. The question I want answered is whether it's from the same people as Landover Baptist, or another group of satirists with either a grudge or an admiration for Landover?
And, if you want evidence from a Christian point of view that it's a parody, this guy agrees with me.
And for a good look at why this might be hateful (or at least the responses to it):
posted
Your whistlestopper link has nothing to say on why it might be hateful, that I could see, other than one person who took offense because the parody was about Christians, it seemed like.
Again, I believe this is (with some possible exceptions) no more hateful than Scott Ott or Mallard Fillmore.
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posted
Thought about it, and I don't think it's hate filled, but I think it might be more destructive to Christians because it's not up front about being satire, edit: and its satire is very subtle. The whole point about people honestly believing it is a Christian site, as I guess was your point, is well taken now that I think about it.
I still think it's clever, though. If they would only make it a little more clear that it's parody, I think Christians would be a lot more comfortable with it.
I guess the question has to be asked, though, if it would then still be clever? If part (all?) of the funny of the site isn't the 'gotcha' factor, and whether the site would be ruined if they were up front about it? Hrmmm.
quote: At some point, we have to kind of tone down the 'hate' rhetoric or hate really loses its meaning, I think. I think there has to be room for groups to poke fun at each other. For whites to poke fun of blacks, blacks to poke fun of whites, Christians-heathens, etc. However, I agree that it shouldn't go 'too far'.
posted
Perfect example, SM. Funny stuff. Like the lambuel site, it isn't up front about being a parody. It makes fun of an attitude that is present in white society. You either get it or you don't. That's part of what makes it funny, I think.
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"I guess the question has to be asked, though, if it would then still be clever? If part (all?) of the funny of the site isn't the 'gotcha' factor, and whether the site would be ruined if they were up front about it? Hrmmm."
I have been thinking about this as well. It almost seems like a "Christian trap." I remember when the creationist science fair link came through the Internet. Some pretty bright people fell for it. Out of context, it looked real.
Icarus, if you are out there, can you explain further why you think it is not a parody?
I am still trying to find a link to the Landover site. It matters to me, for some reason, if only to solve the mystery. I was actually thinking about this whole thing as I fell asleep last night. Weird. My next thing to do is compare the stuff for sale. I think that is my key.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Storm, the quote I was thinking of was this:
quote:Oh it does represent all of christianity. Same bible, same basic beliefs, only they realize that science and religion cannot coincide and actually make a direct choice and stick with it, that being religion. Most christians just like to allow evolution to drift through their heads, maybe semi-believe it, but when it comes down to the existence of god, they agree, but they never really allow for links between things like evolution to the bible's text, therefore, avoiding the bible.
Which I guess isn't the site's fault, but it's a predictable response to it.
Of course, this statement is exceedingly ignorant about how evolution can be reconciled with Christianity. In fact, it's as ignorant about Christianity as some literal creationists are about science.
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