FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Bully Revenge Backfires (now with Japanese culture and history lessons)

   
Author Topic: Bully Revenge Backfires (now with Japanese culture and history lessons)
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From Japan Today:

quote:
FUKUI — The Fukui District Court sentenced a 35-year-old man Tuesday to 12 years in prison for planting a bomb at the home of a former high school classmate as revenge for bullying.

Kiyokazu Takeuchi, unemployed, planted a bomb, built with a fire extinguisher and packed with 2 kgs of gunpowder, on the premises of the man's home in Fukui in July last year. The defendant, who sustained serious burns when the bomb unexpectedly went off while he was planting it, told the court he wanted to get revenge on the man because he had bullied him when they were high school students.

...so would this be adding injury to insult?

[ September 08, 2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WraithSword
Member
Member # 6829

 - posted      Profile for WraithSword   Email WraithSword         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
See, this is where "Bacca" would come into play.

A much more useful term than "Otaku" any day.

Posts: 100 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ryuko
Member
Member # 5125

 - posted      Profile for Ryuko   Email Ryuko         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"baka"?

It might sound silly and petty, but in Japan, the classes advance together, and so there'd be no chance of getting away from someone like that. It would just fester and fester and fester. The group mentality's a big thing, and if these kids couldn't get along, it would definitely affect nearly every area in their lives. A class is like a family in a way.

Posts: 4812 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WraithSword
Member
Member # 6829

 - posted      Profile for WraithSword   Email WraithSword         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, I would have to spell it ma-lu in that case, and I don't want to do something so silly.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo_Sauron
Member
Member # 5827

 - posted      Profile for Eduardo_Sauron   Email Eduardo_Sauron         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ryuko, I know how it is. Here in Brazil the classes also advance together. You can't get away from people who torment you.

Oh, yes...in portuguese we have the word "babaca", meaning "silly", "stupid" or both. I wonder if baka came from it, since the meanings are similar. As you may know, a few japanese words came from portuguese (the portuguese traders were among the first westeners to mantain prolonged contact with the japanese, back in the 16th century).

Posts: 1784 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So "ne" was Portuguese first? I had been wondering about that.
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo_Sauron
Member
Member # 5827

 - posted      Profile for Eduardo_Sauron   Email Eduardo_Sauron         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That I don't know. I'll have to ask my sensei, together with "baka".
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
skillery
Member
Member # 6209

 - posted      Profile for skillery   Email skillery         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
baka = horse-deer
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KarlEd
Member
Member # 571

 - posted      Profile for KarlEd   Email KarlEd         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've heard from a couple of different sources that "arigato" (sp??) in japanese is from the portuguese "obrigado", both meaning "thank you".
Posts: 6392 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My understanding is that ne does come from the Portugese.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo_Sauron
Member
Member # 5827

 - posted      Profile for Eduardo_Sauron   Email Eduardo_Sauron         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yup, KarlEd...many people say that "arigato" comes from "obrigado".

I'll still have to check "ne".

Posts: 1784 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
skillery
Member
Member # 6209

 - posted      Profile for skillery   Email skillery         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Foreign words used in Japanese are usually written in katakana: words such as ramen (Chinese noodles) and pan (bread). The word baka is written in kanji(Chinese characters); arigatou and ne are written in hiragana(Japanese phonetic alphabet). If those words are indeed derived from the Portuguese, then their use as Japanese words pre-dates the use of katakana.

My Japanese friend here at work insists that baka, arigatou, and ne are of Japanese origin.

Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Little_Doctor
Member
Member # 6635

 - posted      Profile for Little_Doctor   Email Little_Doctor         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Domo Arigatou Mr. Roboto
Posts: 1401 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Skillery, it might depend on when some of the words were introduced into the language, as opposed to when katakana was introduced.

Ooooooh, interesting:

Link

This says that the Portuguese loan words came around in the 15th and 16th centuries. That's a good long time after the Japanese language was developed and katakana was a part of it.

This link says that katakana came about in the 9th century.

[ September 07, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]

Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
skillery
Member
Member # 6209

 - posted      Profile for skillery   Email skillery         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When I first started reading OSC, and saw the word "ne" used, I thought he must have some experience with Japanese. I didn't know then that he had been a missionary to Brasil, nor did I know that "ne" was also Portuguese.

I won't be surprised if "ne" finds it's way into common English usage. Nothing in the current English lexicon quite fits. Of course we've already got a good word for merda.

Otaku is another good word that seems to be making inroads. I understand that otaku got its start in English usage in William Gibson's bridge trilogy. I haven't read it. Is that cyberpunk?

Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've found myself using "ne" in everyday conversations. It is incredibly handy.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pooka
Member
Member # 5003

 - posted      Profile for pooka   Email pooka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"ne" was a question particle in Latin. Is that how it is used in Portuguese?
Posts: 11012 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Verily the Younger
Member
Member # 6705

 - posted      Profile for Verily the Younger   Email Verily the Younger         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would highly doubt that "arigatou" came from "obrigado". Such a basic and inexpendible word is unlikely to come from outside sources. Not impossible, but unlikely. Such coincidences are not unheard of. The Japanese word for "name" is "namae", but that has nothing at all to do with any of the Indo-European words for the concept.

I also have my doubts about "ne" and "baka", but without further research into Japanese etymology, I'd be reluctant to make a guess one way or the other.

Keep in mind, though, that the current rules for the usage of kanji vs. hiragana vs. katakana were only recently put into place. In the old days, it was not so clear cut, and even today the rules aren't absolute.

For example, "tenpura" (in English, "tempura") came from Portuguese, but the "ten" is written in kanji (the kanji for "heaven", if you want to know), and the "pura" in hiragana.

The Japanese word for "cigarette" is "tabako", which did come from "tobacco", but is written in hiragana as often as not.

The word "karaoke" is a blend of the Japanese "kara", meaning "empty", and an abbreviation of "ookesutora", the Japanese pronunciation of "orchestra". So we might expect that the "kara" would use the kanji. Yet the whole word is written in katakana.

So which writing system is used for a given word is mostly just a rough guide to the word's origins. It's not a guarantee.

Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
"ne" was a question particle in Latin. Is that how it is used in Portuguese?
I know in Japanese it is. It's basically used as, "Right?", "Isn't It?", "You agree?" - when the affirmitive is expected in response.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
advice for robots
Member
Member # 2544

 - posted      Profile for advice for robots           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I prefer "capisch" over "ne."
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also, the word for 'pencil' in Japanese is empitsu, which I find to be eerily similar - but it's written in Kanji. I'd guess this would be another case of coincidence?
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Verily the Younger
Member
Member # 6705

 - posted      Profile for Verily the Younger   Email Verily the Younger         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also, the word for 'pencil' in Japanese is empitsu, which I find to be eerily similar - but it's written in Kanji. I'd guess this would be another case of coincidence?
You'd be correct. The kanji for "enpitsu" literally mean "lead brush", which is about as literal a description of the concept of "pencil" as you could ask for in a single word.

The "pitsu" part would normally be pronounced "hitsu", but due to a routine sound change, the "en" turns the "hi" into "pi", resulting in the coincidence.

Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been doing a personal study of the Japanese language for a few months, and only recently delved into Kanji. It keeps amazing me how literal their words and phrases are compared to modern english usage. Learning the 'basic english translation' doesn't cut it - learning what the Kanji characters literally mean make the words even more fun.

I love that the word for "egg", tamago, literally means "ball child". Isn't that great?

[ September 07, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Verily the Younger
Member
Member # 6705

 - posted      Profile for Verily the Younger   Email Verily the Younger         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Heck, that's nothing. Ever had oyakodon at a Japanese restuarant? Wonderful dish; one of my favorites. It consists primarily of chicken and eggs on top of a bed of rice in a type of deep rectangular bowl known as a donburi.

Now, the dish got its name because of the fact that chicken meat and eggs are served together. Oya means "parent", and ko means "child". (The don part refers to the donburi.) So oyakodon is literally a "bowl of parent and child". Grisly to contemplate. Yummy to eat. [Big Grin]

Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[ROFL]

That's simply wonderful.

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I prefer "capisch" over "ne."
Unfortunately, capisch isn't as flexible as ne is.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Kanji does allow some cool visual wordplays that just can't be translated into English. For instance, the original title of Miyazaki's SPIRITED AWAY is Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi (千と千尋の神隠し), the closest literal translation I can get from it being "Sen and Chihiro's Spirit Hiding".

Those who've seen the movie know that Yubaba changes Chihiro's name to Sen. But, without understanding the Kanji, you wouldn't realize why.

The name Chihiro (千尋)is made up of two characters - and the one that is pronounced as "Chi" (千) is the same kanji that, on its own, is pronounced as "Sen"(千). So Yubaba just wiped out the second half of her name, which changed the pronunciation of the first character.

I think that's pretty nifty.

[here's hoping the kanji and kana are viewable in everyone's browsers]

[ September 07, 2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not viewable in mine.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
skillery
Member
Member # 6209

 - posted      Profile for skillery   Email skillery         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can read it.

And the giant baby in Spirited Away had the symbol "bou" on its bib, symbolizing the quintessential baby in Japan-lore, bou-chan.

Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Human
Member
Member # 2985

 - posted      Profile for Human   Email Human         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think you have to download the Japanese language pack for Windows before hiragana, katakana, and kanji will show.
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Microsoft Japanese language pack IME: here

[ September 07, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Verily the Younger
Member
Member # 6705

 - posted      Profile for Verily the Younger   Email Verily the Younger         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can see them. I haven't been using any because I didn't know how many people would be able to view them.

But anyway, for those who can:
鉛 = "en" or "namari", meaning "lead".
筆 = "hitsu" or "fude", meaning "brush".

So "lead" + "brush" = "pencil".

Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo_Sauron
Member
Member # 5827

 - posted      Profile for Eduardo_Sauron   Email Eduardo_Sauron         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"ne", in portuguese (we write it "né") also means "isn't it right?" or "don't you agree?".
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another "Oh, Cool!" Kanji moment:

You've all heard Japan referred to as the 'land of the rising sun'. I've heard it, and just figured it was a cool nickname, like "The Garden State" for New Jersey - I didn't realize it wasn't just a description of Japan, it was the name of Japan.

You see, what we call the country is bit of a bastardization/anglicization of Nippon, or Nihon - the actual Japanese name of Japan.

Now, the Kanji for Nihon is: 日本

日 = Sun/Day
本 = Root/Origin

So, the name of Japan literally means "sun's origin", or "Day's Origin". And seeing as what we call the first appearance (or origin) of the Sun each day is sunrise, literally, Japan is the land of the "Rising Sun".

Cool, ne?
すごいね。

[ September 08, 2004, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ryuko
Member
Member # 5125

 - posted      Profile for Ryuko   Email Ryuko         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The name actually came to Japan from China. Before its interaction with China, Japan called itself... hang on, I know this... Yamato?

BOOK! Crap. Left all my Japanese history at home. Internet says it's Yamato.

Anyway, when China first encountered Japan, Japan was fascinated by the Chinese culture, so much so that they incorporated much of it into their own, making a near-seamless transition. (Much like what happened after/before/during WWII with Japan's interation with the west.)

When the Chinese went to Japan, they went from west to east, making Japan, to them, the land of the rising sun. There's a story about the emperor writing a letter with the words "The Leader of the land of the rising sun writes to the Leader of the land of the setting sun" in a somewhat underhandedly insulting way.

Hehehe. I love this stuff. Now I want to ask my linguistics community about arigato vs obrigado. It is commonly said that many words in Japanese derive from Portuguese. They're champion borrowers, and just after the Portuguese left, the Japanese became an island nation in policy as well as in geography, so it might have given them a lot of time to cement those words into their vernacular.

OMOSHIROI DA!!! [Big Grin] OH HO HO!

Posts: 4812 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I actually just watched a PBS documentary concerning the Tokugawa era, and the arrival and later banning of the gaijin. Apparantly one of the major reasons for Japan's isolationist policy was Christian missionaries! The spread of Christianity began to weaken the Shogunates power in his mind (rebellions had started with many of the participants Christian converts), so eventually the Missionaries were shipped out, Christians killed, and Japan sealed off to all westerners, except for some very limited trading partners (the dutch?).

It is interesting!
Omoshiroiyo!
面白いよ。

[ September 08, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, back then, a large percentage of Japan was Christian.

I cannot recall the name for it, but groups of Japanes stayed secretly Christian through the years.

Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Taalcon
Member
Member # 839

 - posted      Profile for Taalcon   Email Taalcon         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyway, when China first encountered Japan, Japan was fascinated by the Chinese culture, so much so that they incorporated much of it into their own, making a near-seamless transition.
The Japanese do this with everything - Buddhism and Shinto especially have all been mishmashed and combined in so many ways in Japan, that very few practices are mutually exclusive anymore. Buddhist divinities are recognized as Shinto kami.

And as said before, Christianity was also quickly welcomed - until the Shogun decided it was a threat to his power.

[ September 08, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]

Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 3101

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of the characters in Stephenson's new trilogy The Baroque Cycle is a Japanese Christian from the Phillipines, if I remember correctly, who says much the same thing, in character, Taalcon has said.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2