posted
I was just watching the morning news, and they interviewed a couple whose daughter died after a binge drinking episode at college. To paraphrase the mother, she said basically that if alcohol tasted like gasoline instead of candy that it would deter the problem. They also called the young woman who died a "victim" of binge drinking.
Now, while I agree that her death was a senseless tragedy, I'm not so sure she was a victim. The interviewer said it was thought she'd had the equivalant of 30some beers or vodka shots. I dunno. Seems to me by college age you understand that drinking that much might not be a good idea. So, was the young woman a victim? And what do you think of the mother's remarks?
posted
Does calling someone a victim completely remove their resposability for the tragedy that causes their perhaps-victimization?
Alcohol is definitely marketed at the young.
The young definitely push their peers to drink.
In these ways, she may be a victim. But if her own hand lifted the shot glass to her lips, then she is responsable for the outcome.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think part of the problem is that when you are college age - you are "invincible" and you don't have to immediately account to your parents for what you are doing. You are out there trying new things. There is a certain amount of excitement in doing something that you know your parents wouldn't want you to do and now you have the power.
Plus, it's doubtful that she realized that she was drinking a lethal dose. She probably lost track of how much she was drinking. Drinking does have a detrimental effect on common sense. Nobody was there to say, "okay, this is how much you can drink and this much will kill you."
One thing that amazes me, though. I would think that you would pass out before you could drink that much. Admittedly, my drinking experience is not much. I did have a bit of a rebellious period when I was "around" 21. After an intimate encounter with the toilet bowl after an evening with a 40-oz (beer tastes nasty, BTW), I completely swore off beer. I did have mixed drinks on a few occasions after that, but gave that up, too.
The mom of the girl who died isn't being realistic to say that alcohol should taste like gasoline. She should be lobbying for education at college. There could be something like a meeting where they are told about the specific dangers of too much alcohol. I doubt anyone ever told that girl "30 beers or shots will give you a lethal dose of alcohol." In elementary school, they start telling kids about drugs and alcohol. My 11-year-old daughter (sixth grade, middle school) just showed me an information sheet she was given and it does say that drinking a quart of vodka in one sitting can kill you.
I was in a college class where the instructor showed a film with fatal car accidents involving alcohol. Gruesome. I was 36 at the time, so it wasn't necessarily for my benefit, but I stayed and watched. Some of my classmates were whining about why did they have to watch it. Well, they were of the age where they could start drinking legally, and it was probably a good idea to give them the idea that there are consequences.
And, last but not least, it is first and foremost the parents' responsibility to teach their children.Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:The mom of the girl who died isn't being realistic to say that alcohol should taste like gasoline. She should be lobbying for education at college. There could be something like a meeting where they are told about the specific dangers of too much alcohol. I doubt anyone ever told that girl "30 beers or shots will give you a lethal dose of alcohol."
I think it's actually commonplace for public universities to address this at freshman orientation, if only for liability reasons. I know that the campuses of U of IL, U of WI, and Indiana U do, and from what I read in the Chronicle of Higher Education, it's now de rigeur. Don't know about private universities, though.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, from my experience with binge drinking.
I would say after the girl had a drink or two or three, at that point you can pretty much write off any "logic" in her brain stepping in and telling her "hey, if you drink too much more it is going to kill you". Because after a bit of alcohol, you have a very different perception of yourself.
And some people have a much lower tolerance than others, so those around her may not have realized just how much she was drinking.
I don't count her as a "victim", I guess, since she chose her course of action. If she was a victim of anything, it would be peer pressure, but we've all taught our kids about peer pressure and how to say "no" and from there, it is their choice. She chose to go along with others doing it because she wanted that attention.
Or it could have even been suicide (most people don't think about this possibility, but I did try to kill myself through binge drinking at that age). I didn't succeed because I would black out before I would drink enough to kill me.
Parents can teach, but in the end the choice still belongs to the girl. My parents were teetotalers -- yet I'm an (recovered)alcoholic. So they could teach a lot, but that doesn't mean I followed what they said.
And someday my kids will be faced with the same choices. I only hope I've educated them enough that they are stronger than I was.
posted
My school (LSU) is requiring that all freshmen take an online alcohol education course. While I don't particularly want to sit down and take the time to do the course, I think it certainly has its merits. I know that not enough of the people who need it the most are going to pay much attention to it, but I hope that it will at least call a little bit of attention to their harmful behavior and make them think twice before participating in binge drinking, etc.
I think the girl mentioned in the news was not so much a victim of alcohol itself, but of a society that makes it acceptable (at least on her level) to behave like she did. Were it not considered "cool" or "fun" by her peers, I highly doubt she would have consumed that much alcohol on her own out of her own free will.
I know a few people who go to parties and chug beers despite hating the taste. I don't think the mother's comments about the taste of alcohol are very valid - these kids (for the most part, I'm sure) aren't drinking to enjoy the flavor. After that much alcohol in your system anyway, are you really in a state of mind to know what you're drinking and how good it tastes?
The girl is a victim, sure, but it's her peers and the thousands of irresponsible binge-drinkers that DON'T suffer any consequences and therefore set the example for her that it's ok to act like that, that are the ones to blame.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
As Avadaru said, alcohol does not taste like candy and those kids weren't drinking it for the taste. It's a shame what happened to that girl, but she made her choices, the same as the 19-year-old drunk driver who killed my husband's best friend three weeks ago made her choices. I doubt either of them were ignorant of the effects of excessive alcohol consumption, but for whatever reason they chose to do it anyway, and paid the price.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Parents who are in deny their children any responsibility for their actions raise children who don't make very wise decisions.
Barring the possibility that this mother was still in the throws of overwealming grief at the loss of her daughter, it shouldn't be too surprising that this is her outlook. If the mother always taught her daughter that her actions would not result in any significant consequences, how else would she know that making life threatening choices could result in the loss of life? Not all kids her age think they are invincible. Kids who have to feel the full brunt of their bad decisions early in life, balanced by the love and caring sympathy of their parents (no "I told you so!" or "It's okay, mommy will take care of it.", more "That's really sad. That would hurt me too."), aren't as likely to make choices like binge drinking, drinking and driving, etc. IMO, anyway.
Small aside, I once knew a guy who had an absolutely iron stomach. His doctor pointed out that it made him especially suseptible to fatal alcohol poisoning if he overindulged, since he wouldn't throw up. So he stopped drinking.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I saw this thread, I wondered if it was the same story I had posted last week. Then it occurred to me the particulars involving a freshman and death from binge drinking weren't enough to make it unique.
The word "victim" is probably misused in a lot of cases, just like the word "tragedy." But I don't think people want to "blame the victim" for what happened, even if in this scenario that is what happened.
I must agree with all of the previous posters who noted the parents must share at least some of the blame for not educating their children regarding alcohol and the consequences of excessive drinking. Colleges can only take "in loco parentis" so far before it becomes impossible.
posted
The nonsensical popularity of binge drinking at colleges and the idea that it is expected are at least in part to blame. Her peers who were binge drinking alongside her, and pressuring her to go further are partially to blame (something all drinkers should remember they are contributing to). But the girl is to blame too.
Blame is a thing that doesn't have to be limited to one party.
Although, from what I understand, the taste of alcohol has nothing to do with why people drink it - so it can't really be blamed.
posted
How on earth did she not pass out by the time she got to her 30th drink (or its equivalent)? I mean, that's one hell of a Power Hour, even if it's not exactly following the rules.
Truth be told, I've done some pretty nasty binge drinking in my time - and no, it's not about the taste. In fact, binge drinking with stuff that tastes good is a waste of money. Good-tasting alcohol costs a lot. In my experience, one drinks to get confused!drunk, and from that point on, there's no going back. Stopping comes when an addled brain says "Time to go home!" or when friends leave or when sleepy-time (or sick-time) hits. Ignoring those voices is the fault of the individual, and extreme circumstances often result.
Yeah, binge drinking is a problem at college. I don't see how it's going to stop, though. A talk or required training at orientation probably won't help any - I know I didn't pay any attention at orientation except to register for classes. They could have told me to drink and I'd be none the wiser.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
At orientation the rules were laid down about alcahol and drugs on campus and then (in small groups of about twenty or smaller) our don/RA told us to drink responsibly, and, if anyone was passed out in a way that could be dangerous, we should get him.
We were shown how much alcahol could intoxicate/disorient us and how much could make us unconcious. We were instructed about the recovery position.
He said that in one year as a Don he took three people to the hospital for alcahol-overdose related incidents. So far, I have seen no excessive drinking (at least to the point of passing out).
In short, we were not told not to drink, nor how much to, only what the effects would be and what steps to take should we find ourselves in a situation with a passed out person.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
(By the way, I think this movement to raise awareness is relatively recent. It wasn't widespread in the 80s, AFAIR)
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: We were shown how much alcahol could intoxicate/disorient us and how much could make us unconcious. We were instructed about the recovery position.
I'm wondering how they presented that, Teshi, since these amounts vary-by-person and bodyweight, etc.
posted
Probably general guidelines. That's usually how it is discussed. There are also upper limits, regardless of tolerance.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You drink beer for the buzz, not because it tastes good, although you can learn to like the taste.
Mixed drinks are more expensive because you're buying liquor (vodka or whathaveyou) and mix which will then vary by drinker's preference.
Drinks like buttery nipples which quite tasty are also absurdly expensive to make at home, especially when compared to just picking up a six-pack of beer.
posted
On the contrary, I love the taste of a decent beer, many wines, good whiskey, and several other liquors and liquers. But then I chew on penicillin/etc when prescribed cuz I like the taste; as well as eat various foods/condiments which others dislike because of their burn and/or bitterness.
It's the mind-muddling buzz which I detest sufficiently to drink only rarely (ie meals with company, usually restaurant) and lightly.
posted
What bothers me is no one said, Hey, that girl is drinking an awful lot, awful fast.
In my experience, friends always look out for each other in cases like this. Phrases like "Hey man, maybe you should lay off for a bit" or "You don't need any more" are said when needed. They are also greatly appreciated... no one gets mad, they just realize that, yeah, they're right. That's what friends are for. I don't care how drunk you are, you keep an eye on your friends and yourself.
Where were her friends?
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Depending on friends to keep track of you during a party is a dangerous, dangerous thing to do.
If your friend is distracted or otherwise engaged in the party, there is no guarantee your buddy will be able to sufficiently monitor your alcohol consumption.
Even if your friend has agreed to do it, you have to decide whether or not the friend is actually responsible enough to handle the job.
posted
Booze tastes like candy? Maybe Boons Farm... but you can hardly get drunk off that.
quote:You drink beer for the buzz, not because it tastes good, although you can learn to like the taste.
Yup. I drink Jagermiester... it is one of the most foul tasting things every invented, but it gives you a good buzz, so there we go. I like to call it "the blood of Cain".
And I agree that it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children. A terrible tragedy when ignorance, youth, and over excitment do this... Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do not mean that you take one friend aside and say, Watch out if I start drinking too much.
It's just a mutual understanding that friends watch out for each other.
You certainly do not DEPEND on one friend with you. That's why I said you watch yourself too. You'd have to be an idiot to think that if no one has said anything, you're doing fine.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
On another side entirely, I keep wondering why they keep saying it might have been beer. I thought it was pretty close to impossible to achieve that kind of toxicity with beer - assuming 8 oz beers, we're talking almost 2 gallons of beer. Unless the gallons were consumed very fast, most people would pass out before getting to that second gallon (I realize "pros" can get to the point where they can achieve this, but it's unlikely she was that accomplished.)
It's much easier to kill yourself with shots of alchohol - about a quart involved here. If you toss off one shot after another you can have 4 or 5 down you before the alcohol from the first drink has even begun to hit your bloodstream.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It seems to me that if you reach a point where you no longer have good enough judgement to realize you shouldn't drink any more, you've already gone too far.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
By the time you hit that point, most people are no longer capable of realizing they have exceeded their capacity.
I've watched people, falling down drunk, insist with absolute vehemency they were completely sober or at the very least they haven't had nearly enough.
posted
Or she hadn't eaten enough to help cushion the impact of the alcohol or someone was spiking the drinks - there are a number of possible variables to consider.
posted
Alcohol is a drug just like Tobacco is a drug and Marijuana is a drug. But it's legal.
Those substances are dangerous to a person and those that surround them.
Does that mean they need to be illegal? No. But the laws regarding them definately need to be tough and stringent. (not more laws, just no loosening of the laws)
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now that I look back at Space Opera's original post, nowhere does it say she was even with friends when this happened -- could have been along (not likely, but possible)
SO - do you have a link to your local News so I can see if they say this was at a party, or just what?
posted
True, but aren't there consumption laws on how much you are allowed to serve someone?
That's assuming she binged it all in one sitting at one place (or party more likely).
But then again, that would be the government telling people how much is acceptable. That used to be the law (ottis from Andy Griffith) but Public Intoxication is not the crime it once was.
Maybe someone that knows more.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The thing that disturbs me is that the mom isn't willing to accept that her daughter chose to do this on her own. I doubt very seriously that any of her peers forced her to drink. I guess it's easier to say, "She's a victim," than it is to admit that her daughter did something fatally stupid.
I am sorry that her daughter died, but her daughter is no victim.
I am also shocked that she had that many drinks. I can't manage more than 2 or 3 drinks before I get too woozy to manage. Usually I sip one drink for the whole night.
Posts: 392 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:By the time you hit that point, most people are no longer capable of realizing they have exceeded their capacity.
If there's no point at which you can trust your judgement to safely tell you to stop, then you probably shouldn't start drinking in the first place - at all!
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
In my experience, most college binge drinking is a choice - a choice to deliberately attempt to impair one's own judgement.
It's not like people are just having a glass of wine and suddenly they've lost control. They go out with the intention of "getting wasted" or whatever.
posted
Gah...I can't find a link for the story. I thought on saw in on the "Today Show" but didn't see anything resembling it on their site. I do recall that this was on a college campus, and that her death occurred at a fraternity house.
posted
If we're talking about the same case, I've seen links for the story on CourtTV.com and abcnews.com.
Details are sketchy, but she did die in a frat house, she wasn't sexually assaulted insofar as investigators can tell and apparently several people did look in on her from time to time, but they thought she was sleeping.
posted
My parents always had a "European" attitude when it came to my bother and I drinking. We were allowed to drink wine with dinner if there was some, and we could have one beer at a party with them and their friends. This took away the mystery or alcohol and helped us learn how to drink responsibly. I know people my age (17) who do not think that they can go out and have fun without alcohol. I think making it forbidden fruit makes it more desirable for many teenagers.
I disturbs me that none of her friends did anything, if there were even any there. I think it is very important to go to parties where you will be drinking with friends. Ones that you know you can trust. This helps protect against drinking too much, and date-rape drugs.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is never a point where one is too intoxicated to turn down the next drink. There are only people who have not learned to pace themselves. One can always say, "I've had enough." Nor is peer pressure any real excuse. The only legitimate reason to use a drug is because you feel like it. Peer pressure is just a scapegoat. No one held a gun to her head.
Furthermore, losing track of how much one is drinking? It is one thing to be off by a couple shots, but anyone with a brain that works enough to make intoxication pleasurable should be able to keep a decent estimate.
If she was drinking vodka, it probably already tasted like gasoline.
It should be acceptable to get as drunk as one wants. When this is not acceptable, it encourages rebellion, getting as drunk as possible. What should not be acceptable is heavy encouragement of dangerous drinking habits. People need to learn that tolerance to a drug is annoying, not good. Instead of boasting about getting drunk of thirty drinks, alkies should boast about needing three or four.
The idea that one is pressuring someone just by doing it amazes me. No one kicks me out of the party if I am not drinking. No one gets kicked out of my apartment for not smoking marijuana with me. Most of my friends smoke tobacco, but for some reason I am still accepted. I refuse to believe that this behavior only happens in Lexington. Rather than blaming people for enjoying themselves when and where they have a right to, why not blame the people who apparently have so little identity of their own they copy their drug use patterns from what they think others are doing?
As far as information goes, there needs to be a distinction made between this type of "binge drinking" and the 5 for a male, 4 for a female "binge drinking". The first type can kill you, obviously, but I do not think there are many people who die from 4 or 5 drinks, even one right after another. Information that states only "binge drinking can kill you" and gives the 5/4 drinks rule is not going to be received well by people who have almost certainly seen many of their peers be none the worse for wear after that many. Not that I am saying four or five drinks in one sitting is a good thing.
Posts: 281 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have mixed thoughts on that - usually when I refuse a drink it's because I'm full and can't swallow anything else or I have a better appreciation for when I'm hitting my tolerance threshold, although learning that particular limit was a great deal of trial and error.
In my experience, peer pressure can be quite powerful, particularly if you are a highly social person.
And without learning your own patterns, some people might follow the misguided or misinformed advice of others - for example, how many teens know it takes a shot a few minutes to hit your system, allowing for food (starches) or lack thereof in your system?
posted
Well, one might have to decide beforehand how many they are going to have that night. I still do not believe intoxication is an excuse. Short of someone forcing it down your throat, you are the one who puts the liquid to your mouth. Of course, I get bad hangovers, so I try not to get too drunk on alcohol to begin with.
Edit: I thought pretty much everyone who drank knew it took 5-15 minutes for a shot to hit, depending on weight and how recently they ate. Are there lots of people who do not?
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
