posted
If anyone can get me information on psychological and emotional damge caused by rape and treatment thereof, it would be most appreciated. Also any material that might help a person help someone who's been raped or sexually assaulted.
posted
Just to clarify, given a couple IMs just now: No. It's not me. I need to help another person and I need to know emotional warning signs before any psychological damage becomes drastic. If you can also find anything on helping people deal with sexual assualt, that would be good too.
This evening I had a load dropped on my shoulders and I don't know how to help. So please . . .
check out your local whitepages. There are probably several rape/crises places listed. If none, call the local ER and they can direct you. I'm glad that you're trying to be there for someone who needs you.
posted
Opera is right. There'll be listing for rape crisis call centers and if you call 'em, they would be a great help to you and your friend right now.
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posted
Right, see, the problem is, she doesn't want to tell anyone. Not for a week, until her parents are home. And I don't know how to be sure she's all right and I'm leaving for two weeks on Friday and I don't know what to do. I'm worried about her and normally when she's doing badly she IMs me and we talk but now I won't be here when she's really having trouble.
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posted
Well, she needs to be comfortable, but my fear is that once a week passes and her parents are home she'll be even less reluctant to talk. Would she feel more comfortable if you took her to a crisis center? Also, it's possible that she needs medical attention.
posted
If it is not asking too much, how old is the victime?
I used to be a foster parent for sexually abused children and attended many classes and seminars. Rape is handled differently internally by people of different ages and maturity levels.
Most rape crisis centers are good for women and high school aged girls. If, however, you are talking about a junior high girl or a younger child, these places can do more harm than good. In these cases, Child Welfare and Child social services might be a better place.
Posts: 279 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Just fourteen. I discussed legal implications with another friend and it probably qualifies more as sexual assault or date rape. Possibly just statutory rape, given different systems and that he's seventeen.
I just can't believe it. I know the guy, from my drama class, and he's a nice guy. He's always nice to people. So I'm having trouble grasping the idea of this happening.
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posted
Underage sex crimes sound like they're out of your league, sorry. I would have her talk to the school counselor or another trusted + trained adult.
Since you're friends with the guy, why don't you work on getting his side of the story?
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posted
She NEEDS to be checked for STDs and pregnancy immediately. She needs to act NOW, if only to ensure that she doesn't pregnant or sick. Also, the longer she waits to tell somebody, the less chance she'll have at being able to charge him. If she goes before the bruises have healed (or, though it's probably too late for that, for the semen to be washed out), there'll be more evidence against him.
posted
I agree with asking his side of the story if you know him...I actually would emphasize the importance of that especially if this seems to be something incredibly out of character for him...
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posted
[This post and ALL of Fallow's posts in this thread have been deleted for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who has read them. People, if you want to get banned from Hatrack, these are the kinds of posts you should write.]
posted
I've got to agree with Jill, it's vital that she act soon to prevent pregnancy and STDs. And as far as seeking help for her mental state, waiting is not going to make recovering from the rape any easier.
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posted
Fallow, Wrong place, wrong time. just because you wouldn't look for help here doesn't mean that no one else has the right to do so.
I would call her parents, or have her do so RIGHT AWAY! Don't you think they would want to know about this. If anything qualifies as a family emergency this would, and if they find out you knew and didn't contact them, or the police, then you could be in trouble too, given her age.
Let a responsible adult take the responsibility for getting her professional help, and legal help as well. This isn't something to be ignored, or deferred until next week. She might need, depending on what happened, to have a morning after pill to prevent pregnancy; providing that is something she and her family would consider...once again something that you can't decide for her, as you aren't family.
posted
And you are an insiped little person, who has no idea why this topic is so painful for me.
I've had it happen to people very close to me, and it took YEARS for them to recover, in part because they didn't tell anyone for too long. Go play your mind games somewhere else tonight.
posted
This is difficult for me...I'm trying to find the correct words (at way too early in the morning, and with not enough coffee in my gullet). Please bear with.
You can know a person who rapes, and that person can seem 'perfectly nice'. This does not mean that the person has not raped. Date rape is especially tricky.
I have faith in your compassion for your friend, and your overall smartness as a person, but this is really for a professional (especially considering her age). Please consider asking (anonymously, if you like) a professional for advice.
Um, yes, it happened to me. And the kid was 'perfectly nice'. And I even doubted whether or not it was rape (as I said, date rape is tricky). She's going to need professional help. I wish *I* had gotten some.
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It's been a week or more already since it happened. She just told me. I managed to get in contact with her briefly again and I told her I'm going to give her a day to tell her parents herself. If she doesn't by this evening, then I will. I'm calling a rape crisis center over here and going totalk to them for advice also.
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posted
A rape crisis center will always be happy to talk to a friend of a rape victim. It's the best place to start for advice, and can be done without betraying a friend's confidence since it stays anonymous.
You're doing a good thing here. One thing - I wouldn't confront the friend about it. You don't want to give him time to prepare anything. The first reaction when confronted with an accusation is a valuable investigative tool.
posted
What I'm worried about now is what can be done in the next day. Tomorrow I leave and this will all be out of my hands. I'm calling the rape crisis center and giving her time to tell her folks.
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posted
I want to second Dag's recommendation that you not confront the friend about it. I really don't think that's a good idea.
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posted
i'm going to third what dag and ela said. do NOT confront the boy about it. do not let him know that she told someone. dag is right, his reaction can be valuable - it should be someone much bigger and in more authority than you.
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posted
maybe it is best that you do not confront him yourself, but at least have them both talk to the same school counsellor on their own and get both sides of the story that way then...I've seen a situation similar to this and if he had not been given a chance to be heard he very likely would have killed himself from grief at what he did...
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Oh, and Anthro - you're very cool for seeking resources to help your friend out. I hope she's able to use them to heal.
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posted
Too bad you are leaving, you sound may not be to capable when it comes to this but it sounds like you're doing a better job than most. With most kids 14 is very young, and that complicates things very severely in a number of ways, one of which was outlined by Jalapenoman's post: kids+shrinks= dangerous. If her parents are not the overbearing type and are open-minded and understanding, they're probably much more able to deal with this than you in all ways save one: the other side of the story. I agree with Reiko, there may be one. Therefore you should attempt to uncover it, aggressively. I find the idea that you should not "break cover" deplorable. If you're willing to take the "completely and utterly and totally guilty until proven innocent beyond any doubt"(which is what you'd be doing, because whatever the girl says first, regardless of whether she wants alter it later, will probably be held as undeniable fact) then the best course by far is vigilante justice, for which it is never to late, and always works, and doesn't involve "the hanging then the trial". It's also a little risky but far more honest. If at all possible you should present the most complete story possible when addressing the girl's parents for the first time.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Most parents seem to be able to cope with even terrible news when it comes to their kids, and find a way to help the healing. I pray your friend's parents are that sort. If they are, they will be in the best position to help your friend make whatever decision she needs to make, go to authorities, talk to the young man, whatever.
Sounds hokey, but I wish I'd had the courage to talk to my mom when in a similar situation. It took me twenty years to tell her about it, and I spent way too long thinking I'd done something wrong. I applaud how you're handling this, and the suppoort you're giving your friend.
posted
I've never had anything like that happen to me personally, but it has happened to one of my friends. She needs support now, not later; if there is any way you can possibly postpone your trip on Friday, do it. You need to encourage her to talk to a counselor about it, too, and maybe even get her to call her parents. I agree with what others have said, to NOT talk to the guy. Dagonee is right about it being a powerful investigative tool.
The girl needs to be encouraged to speak out, and assured that people won't be disgusted by her. It sounds strange I know, but often a girl will blame herself for a date-rape, and feel like its somehow her fault.
Is there any way you can get her to contact her parents? I would not recommend that you do anything without persuading her to agree first; if you just call the parents/counselor yourself and tell them it may make the situation worse. But encourage her to take initiative herself.
As soon as possible too, so that she can press charges against the b@$+@^d who did it to her.
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quote:Therefore you should attempt to uncover it, aggressively.
This is not Anthro's job - s/he (not sure, sorry) is trying to help a friend through a rough time. It's not a question of guilt or innocence. This girl says she's been raped. Assuming she's not lying, then she thinks she's been raped whether she actually was or not and is suffering all the associated trauma. The purpose of a rape crisis center is not to punish the guilty; it's to help the victim face the physical and psychological consequences of rape, and to help preserve the victim's options to prosecute if she so desires. Anthro has been thrust into this role and is taking action to pass it on to someone more capable - a commendable decision, I think.
As difficult and specialized as the rape counsellor's job is, a well-meaning friend can cause even more damage to the police or prosecutor's investigation. Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent, will not help the victim if he is guilty, and will create a potentially dangerous situation besides.
Anthro does not need to form an opinion of guilt or innocence to help the victim.
Dagonee Edit: The decision to press charges must be the victim's. She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges. Frankly, with no physical evidence, they'd have a hard time convicting him of anything except statutory rape unless they get a confession. The burden of proof is on his side, not hers.
posted
If I could clone Dagonee, I would. Unfortunately, a simple "what he said" must suffice.
Worth particular highlighting:
quote: Anthro has been thrust into this role and is taking action to pass it on to someone more capable - a commendable decision, I think.
As difficult and specialized as the rape counsellor's job is, a well-meaning friend can cause even more damage to the police or prosecutor's investigation.
Anthro does not need to form an opinion of guilt or innocence to help the victim.
The decision to press charges must be the victims. She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges.
(Spot on, Dag. Spot on throughout.)
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quote:The decision to press charges must be the victims.
I disagree. The issue of having a rapist in the community (or alternatively, clearing someone's good name) is bigger than the emotions of one peron. There's some merit to the victim's having say in the prosecution of minor crimes, but there's a reason we have independent DAs.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I've gotten her to call a rape crisis center. I can't get in contact with her now--her phone number is unlisted and she's not online. I know she has a therapist and she has a session soon, so I hope she'll get something from that.
She doesn't want to do anything unless she's pregnant.
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posted
"Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent" Dagonee, that is incorrect because it assumes he is totally innocent and so has no mistake to realize and that the justice sytem is perfect, and both are pretty obviously false assumptions. Ah well, probably too late now. Dangit I'm really sorry my last post was out of wack. Didn't mean to help this turn into an argument. Certainly wasn't advocating against contacting the rape crisis center or trying to imply the important issue is one of guilt or innocence, it's not. Obviously the primary concern is your friend, and telling her parents soon is very high priority. It would be better, if possible, though, if you could give them the most accurate possible version of reality, and since you are leaving I'm assuming that you don't have time to do much else. Again, that's really too bad, you sound like good support, and there's plenty of ideas what you could do to help her if you stuck around. You should be able to trust the parents to do what's good for their kid, but if you're going to take the job of telling them for her, then it's better that they get a less biased idea so they don't go off half cocked. It's all very well and good to say that "the decision to press charges must be the victim's", but it will ultimately be the parents'. Also, the parents will be far better off in the pursuit of helping their daughter if they have a closer-to-correct view of what happened. In my opinion you have not said enough the incident for people to be making the judgements that they are. And people on an anonymous internet forum assuming dilemmas of subjects like this, well Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
i don't see how a young woman going and asking the guy what happend is any more efficient than the parents pursuing the truth. your argument is totally incoherent.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I think it would be safer for the parents, or better yet the cops, to ask the questions. We're talking about a guy who allegedly raped a 14 year old. If he'd do that, it's entirely possible he could hurt Anthro for getting involved.
Cops on the other hand carry mace, small clubs, and guns. If the guy freaks out over the questions, the cops are trained to protect themselves and the community at large.
Anthro, the only thing I would ask of you is this. When you talk to your friend again, remind her that if she says nothing, she is leaving every other girl this boy knows in danger of him doing the same thing to them. Even if she doesn't want to speak out for herself, she may want to speak out to stop him from hurting anyone else this way.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote: The issue of having a rapist in the community (or alternatively, clearing someone's good name) is bigger than the emotions of one peron. There's some merit to the victim's having say in the prosecution of minor crimes, but there's a reason we have independent DAs.
In one sense I agree with you – I think it is the responsibility of crime victims to society to assist in prosecution of criminals to get them off the street. However, this duty is not absolute and must take several factors into account:
1) The harm this will cause the victim. 2) Whether or not the victim is psychologically capable of testifying. If she proceeds with pressing charges and is ultimately unable to get on the stand and describe what happened, a lot of unnecessary emotional trauma has occurred and a lot of time and money has been wasted. 3) The chance of getting a conviction. Frankly, a one-on-one accusation where the accused says the sex was consensual, with no physical evidence, almost always has reasonable doubt. The defense attorney’s job will be to get the jury to doubt the victim’s story that she didn’t want to have sex. This will be accomplished with innuendo (“Why did you go up to his hotel room at 1:00 AM in the morning if it wasn’t to have sex?”). If the accused is found innocent, which happens even if the jury tends to believe her, there is an assumption at large that she was lying.
One of the immediate effects of rape is a loss of a sense of control by the victim. It is important that she be allowed to evaluate these factors and make her own decision. Someone advocating for prosecution should point out the benefits (to society and the victim) of pressing charges, but also point out the potential costs.
A prosecutor, in preparing the victim for trial, will have to be harsh with the victim at some point and ask the hard questions she will face on the stand. This will be her advocate essentially accusing her of asking for it. It’s necessary, but very traumatic. She must be the one who makes the decision and fully invested in the process for the prosecutor to have a hope of winning the case.
quote: "Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent" Dagonee, that is incorrect because it assumes he is totally innocent and so has no mistake to realize and that the justice sytem is perfect, and both are pretty obviously false assumptions. Ah well, probably too late now.
I’m almost at a loss as to how to respond here. Thinking as a defense attorney, I want my client to have said as little as possible about this event. Anything he says either doesn’t help the case or can be twisted to hurt it. It is the imperfection of the justice system and the potentially gray nature of the event that make this dangerous for the accused.
And I’m not really interested in looking out for the accused here – this statement was meant to counter the facially compelling argument that fairness demands Anthro hear his side of the story. This argument has a compelling appeal – who wants to believe their friend could commit rape? The legal system is not always compatible with our inherent sense of fairness. It is geared so that all the fairness is related to how 12 particular people view and judge the event. The chance for the defendant to tell his side of the story is during trial, not before. The reason I added the line about hurting the accused if he’s innocent was to provide a rational reason for not doing something that we learn from childhood on, getting both sides of the story, is “fair.”
quote:Dangit I'm really sorry my last post was out of wack. Didn't mean to help this turn into an argument. Certainly wasn't advocating against contacting the rape crisis center or trying to imply the important issue is one of guilt or innocence, it's not. Obviously the primary concern is your friend, and telling her parents soon is very high priority. It would be better, if possible, though, if you could give them the most accurate possible version of reality, and since you are leaving I'm assuming that you don't have time to do much else.
No. Anthro is not equipped to provide an accurate version of reality. She is not a trained counselor or investigator, nor was she there when it happened. (This is not a knock on Anthro at all.)
quote:Again, that's really too bad, you sound like good support, and there's plenty of ideas what you could do to help her if you stuck around. You should be able to trust the parents to do what's good for their kid, but if you're going to take the job of telling them for her, then it's better that they get a less biased idea so they don't go off half cocked.
Getting the accused’s version doesn’t make their ideas less biased, it means there are two versions of an even seen from two totally different perspectives. Assume for a minute that the accused genuinely thinks she consented. Obviously, the victim and he have absolutely opposite views on what happened. The truth may be somewhere between, but it may be on one side or the other. Throw in the possibility that the accused will lie, and Anthro is in no position to provide a “less biased” idea.
quote:It's all very well and good to say that "the decision to press charges must be the victim's", but it will ultimately be the parents'. Also, the parents will be far better off in the pursuit of helping their daughter if they have a closer-to-correct view of what happened.
Again, nothing in Anthro’s power can give them this closer to correct view.
quote:In my opinion you have not said enough the incident for people to be making the judgements that they are. And people on an anonymous internet forum assuming dilemmas of subjects like this, well
This is why all the advice was basically “get her to see someone TRAINED in this issue so someone with the proper expertise can gain first hand knowledge and figure out how best to proceed with the victim.” Ironically, it’s the lack of details that make your advice so dangerous. Was the rape accomplished through threat of physical violence? Through drugs or alcohol? Through sheer physical coercion? Each of these creates a different threat profile. Here’s what we do know: someone has accused this person of rape. That would be enough to make me tell my sisters to stay away until more is known.
There’s nothing that can be added to this story that makes me think it’s a good idea for an untrained private citizen to confront an accused rapist in order to figure out what really happened.
posted
Since this girl is a minor, is it not her parents' decision whether to prosecute or not? Or is fourteen an age where she can make this choice?
I wish her courage to get through this as a whole, unbroken person. I wish her peace and joy in her life.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Let me clarify my thinking about Berg's post a little.
I believe that it is best that a rape victim press charges, both for the victim and to help keep a rapist from preying on others.
However, if the decision is not fully the victim's, she will not be able to fully assist the prosecutor. This is a practical matter. If the witness is reluctant and obviously has not chosen to be there, the jury will not believe her.
I should have been more clear when I said, "She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges." A counselor and prosecutor should provide information. Part of that information is the benefits to the victim and society of pressing charges, and what that decision will mean for the victim. After receiving this information, the victim must be the one to decide.
In other words, she needs to hear, “Here’s what happens if you choose to press charges. Here’s how it will help you psychologically. It will also help keep a rapist off the streets.”
quote:Since this girl is a minor, is it not her parents' decision whether to prosecute or not? Or is fourteen an age where she can make this choice?
The practical matter is that if she wishes to not press charges, the prosecutor probably will not no matter what her parents say. The prosecutor's entire case will be her testimony. There's no effective way to coerce it in such a way that it will be believed.
Of course, the parents will likely have a lot of say in her decision. But if she refuses, there's no real way the prosecutor can proceed.
And if she decides to press charges and her parents don't want her to, the prosecutor may proceed any way.
posted
I had not checked this thread for a few days for personal reasons, both because of the painful memories that it reminded me of, and because of some of the things that were said in it earlier.
As I was catching up reading these posts I fought back the urge to post replies to several points made, but by the time I got to the end I found that my replies would have been duplicating Dag's posts, and completely unnecessary.
I think Dag hit it right on the head as well. Perhaps most importantly he mentioned the possible danger to Anthro; not that I am sure there would be any danger, but just in case he/she shouldn't risk himself/herself just to confront the accused. He has neither the training nor the responsibility to do so. His main focus should be on his friend, helping her to get through this terrible time.
I know from personal experience that as a friend of someone who has experienced this type of event it often feels as if you aren't doing all you can to support them, and you feel powerless. Keep in mind that the single most important thing you can do for her is to treat her the with the same respect that you have always shown her, and let her know how much you care.
BTW, when I was in the service, I was accused of making an aggressive pass at a friends wife while at a party. I was drunk, and I did remember having an argument with her and her crying, but I didn't remember much else. There were marks on her body, including teeth marks, and I was devastated with the thought that I might have done this, so upset that my commander had a watch put on me.
I came to the conclusion that I could not have done this, drunk or not, so I went to the police myself, and gave a dental impression. Turns out that the impressions didn't match; they weren't even close. I have a chipped front tooth, so it was very easy to see that it wasn't my marks that were on her arm.
A friend of hers came clean after hearing what she had accused me of doing. Turns out she was still sleeping with her ex,and they liked it rough. He left too many marks to hide, and I had caught them together, so she accused me to deflect blame from herself.
So as you see, I have been involved in both sides of this type of thing. I have been falsely accused, and only my own belief in my character saved me. That, and a chipped front tooth...
quote: He also expressed sympathy for two other celebrities facing high-profile criminal cases at the moment -- pop singer Michael Jackson and basketball star Kobe Bryant -- saying he considers both innocent until proven guilty.
I can't find a link now, but on the radio this morning when they were talking about this Simpson interview -- Simpson said at one point (about Kobe Bryant) "sometimes when a girl says no, she doesn't really mean no."
I would like to have hit him with a 2x4 when I heard that!
posted
I don't disagree with any of your reply, Dagonee. I just want to be on the record as opposing the notion that we are obligated to have negative expectations of victims. In guise of help, to passively reinforce powerlessness in both behavior and emotion. If we all accept the attitude that "there's nothing you can do, just resign yourself to a lifetime of bitter counseling," then the terrorists win (and I mean that).
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
"And I’m not really interested in looking out for the accused here"
You really didn't need to tell me that, I think I've figured that out by myself.
"The legal system is not always compatible with our inherent sense of fairness"
No? What about our inherent since of justice? I beg to differ. Principles of democracy hold that the "inherent sense" of the people is in fact what should determine the legal system, through and through. For legal reference see The United States Constitution
"No. Anthro is not equipped to provide an accurate version of reality."
Ungulate excrement. Anthro has a brain.
"She is not a trained counselor or investigator, nor was she there when it happened."
Don't even think about getting me to start starting. Anyway I did not mean to imply Anthro should neccessarily act herself, a trusted representative who knows the subject would work as well, or maybe even, as Reiko suggested, a school couselor- anybody capable of gleaning information whose doesn't have the specific job of finding incriminating evidence.
Dagonee, no more arguments. Keep on as you have and you will cause me to say something I may regret. Protcol is never a substitute for common sense. I respect you and your views(and I'm not just saying that, I otherwise would have chewed you out long ago), they simply do not apply to the general case, and even less to this specific one, as nearly as I can tell.
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posted
"Dagonee, no more arguments. Keep on as you have and you will cause me to say something I may regret."
This really sounds quite threatening. Dagonee was stating his opinion, no more, no less, and he was doing so in a respectful manner. Your reaction to his opinion is extreme.
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