posted
Like many (most) of you, I was considered a "gifted" student through elementary school, junior high and high school. I always attended public schools, and I really enjoyed them. I had some fantastic teachers who, even though they had tons of challenges to deal with every day, went out of their way to address my unique educational needs. They knew what was going on with me, personally, and tailored their lessons accordingly, or even prepared separate material for my use.
In the thirteen years since I left the public school system, I have heard everybody (it seems) telling me how awful the public school system (as if there's just one) is "these days." At first, since it had only been a handful of years, I could refute them with my own experience. As the years passed, I couldn't do that anymore. So I started to wonder, could it be true? Maybe things really have changed that much, and all for the worse. Maybe the teachers really are apathetic. Maybe the teachers' unions really have wrecked the curriculum. Maybe the whole thing is just turning into a huge, poorly run daycare system.
When my oldest son was four, we sent him to a nearby private school for preschool. This school is part of a national chain (can this word be used this way when talking about schools?), and is well regarded. In addition to preschool, it contains regular classes in grades K-8. My son loved it, and we did too. We found ourselves wondering whether we should keep him in the private school beyond preschool rather than sending him to public school. I was very torn, because I still have this deep love of and belief in the idea of public schools. Finally, we decided that we just couldn't afford it, and we signed him up for public kindergarten for the next year.
My son is very bright. Very. Unlike me, he is also very advanced physically. He is the size of a child at least two years older. He plays all sports, and regularly outplays kids much older than he is. He is also more socially adept than I was at his age. So you would think (or I did, anyway) that his smarts might stay hidden a little bit under that other stuff. I, for one, never expected to find the top-caliber brains among the kids that were both athletic and popular, and I was never disappointed.
So, more than halfway through the preschool year, after many weeks of drilling on the alphabet, etc., one of my sons teachers FINALLY figured out that he already knew how to read. A little exploration revealed that he was reading on roughly a second or third grade level. After she got over her shock, she adjusted and was able to provide him more of what he needed. That was okay.
He has now started kindergarten in the public school. He has 29 kids in his class. He has a very young teachers, with only a couple of years' experience, at most. He does not attract attention to himself. I wondered how long it would take this teacher to find out he could read.
Answer: two weeks. It took this overworked, underpaid public school teacher two weeks to learn something about my son that the expensive private school with small class sizes couldn't see for several months. I am impressed.
That very day, she had him read a book to his classmates. (Side story: One poor boy started crying and freaking out, lamenting "But I don't know how to read!", as if he feared all the kids were expected to do what my son was doing. Another boy, who knew my son from a basketball program, went home and told his mom that he and my son weren't friends anymore. When asked why, he said it was because my son was too smart. His mom pointed out that you actually WANT to be friends with the smart kids, and he immediately saw the logic in that, so no harm done.)
Now, she gives him special projects to do on his own while his classmates are working on basic reading skills. She is having him write his own books and illustrate them, after which she will work with him on the parts he still hasn't mastered, such as spelling and penmanship. This reminds me wistfully of the kinds of teachers I used to have. This is exactly the kinds of thing they would have done, and did.
My faith in the public school system is one again unshaken. I know now that we still have teachers like those great ones of yesteryear.
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posted
I'm not sure why people think private schools would have better teachers. After all, public schools do pay more and have higher certification requirements.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Rereading my post, it sounds a bit attacking, and I did not mean it that way. I am truly curious why you didn't tell the teacher.
Also, I would be very interested in knowing how your math teachers helped you. I teach in an inclusive school, so special needs kids are in with regular ed. kids. The brightest kids seem to get the short end of the stick.
Were there any strategies that teachers used that were helpful to you?
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I never met the preschool teachers. (There were two of them) Well, I think I did see them once, when I wasn't working and was able to take my son to school.
My wife talked to the teachers more often, but I think she figured that there were more important things to talk about. Simply blurting out "Our son can read, you know" might have seemed like either bragging or a demand that they do something about it. We were more concerned with asking questions, finding out how things were going in the class, how his interactions with the other kids were, etc. We weren't hiding his skills, we just had other things to talk about, I think.
As for how my own teachers handled math, I don't remember them doing anything differently for me in that subject. Although I was at or near the top of the class in math for several years, it wasn't either my best or my favorite subject.
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quote: I teach in an inclusive school, so special needs kids are in with regular ed. kids. The brightest kids seem to get the short end of the stick.
I am going to an inclusive school right now, and have been experiencing that short end for three years... If there are any strategies no one at my school knows them; they assume that kids will be tracked onto their correct level and once there it's all the same. They seem to not realize that there's a difference between a lack of inteligence and a lack of knowledge...
Posts: 3420 | Registered: Jun 2002
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The reason people in the U.S. believe that our public education system in inferior is purely political, but it operates on a couple of levels.
First: Politicians can't make any hay out of a good school system. If someone wants to be "the education president," they have to claim that the public schools system stinks. Cue George H.W. Bush, ca 1990. He commissioned a report from Sandia National Labs to find out where the problems were. There answer: Most of the problems lie with perception. The public schools are to a very great degree, very good. So what did Bush do? He suppressed the report, because it didn't fit his agenda.
Second: News media. "Everything's going great" just doesn't make headlines. But "Why Johhny can't read" is an attention grabber. Of course, the reason Johnny can't read is that while 50 years ago we would have flunked him out of high school, now we try to keep him in school as long as possible, to try to remediate the problem. Keeping children who can't read in school is a good thing, but the media protrays it as failure on the school's part. But in reality, literacy rates are steadily improving.
Third: School administrators. How do you ask for more money and at the same time admit that you don't really need it? It's a lot easier to stress the problems that exist in education when you've got your hand out. Administrators walk a fine balance between claiming they're doing a good job, and claiming they have problems that need more money. The result is a lot of finger pointing, which make the whole system look like a real mess.
The fact is that while there are distinct problems in certain areas, the U.S. public school system (or systems, as you point out) are doing a better job than ever. Pedagogy is both a science and an art, and the state of that art is improving dramatically as the science provides better methods.
My real concern is that we are robbing our children of childhood. At this point the amount of homework kids are expected to do is greater than it has ever been, and children are programmed to participate in so many extra curricular activities that they have very little "unstructured" time. Kids need to play, and (most of the time) soccer (gymnastics, karate, etc) isn't play, it's work.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Glenn, you explained that well. Your point about the president needing the schools to be crappy is so true, and I never thought of it that way. I guess I am not objective about education. In the end, I just focus on the kids, and try not to let anyone push them around.
Dragon,
What would you like to happen for you? The problem is that so many teachers just give the brightest kids more independent work, when I feel strongly that all students should get the attention they need. (Some actually prefer to go on their own. For others, it is a struggle to find a page in the textbook.
My goal, which I hit more times than not lately, is to teach to a high level, and boost the others along with props, a.k.a. modifications. For instance, I might hand them a list of vocabulary words and definitions, because I know Student H. can number her paper and get those terms written in a minute, while Student C is still looking for the page. So, I open the book, or have a neighbor do it, provide the words, and move on quicker. This is hard to plan, but I am getting better at it, and the pace is getting faster. So, any ideas, particularly from a student, would help.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: How do you ask for more money and at the same time admit that you don't really need it? It's a lot easier to stress the problems that exist in education when you've got your hand out. Administrators walk a fine balance between claiming they're doing a good job, and claiming they have problems that need more money
There are so few schools in America without realistic monetary issues that your comment worries me. Is that the public perception?
The issue is, most schools truly need more money.
Teachers struggle constantly for the professional status they deserve. Why is it that professions such as business, law, and medicine get great pay and great benefits, while a majority of the teachers within this country make less after 20 years of experience than an entry level in those other professions? I'm taking an intro to education course, and we recently covered this issue. Historically, teachers have been paid minimally. Teachers during the 1room schoolhouse era weren't living in people's homes because they wanted to.. they were getting paid horridly, and were forced to board with people in town, in exchange for extra tutorage or chores. There is one school district close to me now that has been without teacher contracts for the last 2 years, solely because the district lacks the funds to give them any decent kind of health insurance. They're given the responsibility of teaching millions of things to the 'leaders of tomorrow' and getting re-inbursed jack-#$@!
Political schemes such as "no child left behind" (every child fully literate by 3rd grade) and standardized testings sap money away from normal funding.
It is true that a lot of well off suburban schools spend some money frivelously, such as on gigantic football stadiums instead of the arts. But all in all, its a very small percentage.
posted
One thing that consistently comes out of studies of "tracking" in public schools...
Well, lets assume three groups of kids. The top, the middle, and the bottom of the class. In school systems with tracking, the top students pull away from the pack, the average stay average, and the bottom group falls further behind.
In systems without tracking, the top students fall to the average, the bottom climb towards the average, and the average stay average.
What emerges is a debate about how we should handle kids with differing academic aptitudes. Should we identify the smart kids, and push them forward, or should we make sure that the less intelligent kids catch up? Either way you do it, someone gets hurt, academically.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Okay, first of all let me preface that I think public schools rock. My kids are in public schools, when many of my friends homeschool and I can afford private school. I do have a choice, and I choose for them to go to public school because I think they are getting a damn fine education there.
I respect and love teachers, and I plan to be in public education myself as soon as I can finish my undergrad and get the graduate degrees I need to do what I want to do - be an elementary school librarian.
That said....I really don't see where teachers are that sadly underpaid.
Hear me out without throwing chalk at me please.
We toyed with the idea of moving to Huntsville, AL - briefly, and I checked into the median salary for elementary teachers there. It's $42,000 per year. Higher than the Alabama average, but that's apparently due to there being a high percentage of teachers with master's degrees in that school system.
The kids attend 182 days per year, if I'm remembering correctly. The teachers usually work a week before school starts and a week after it ends, so they work approximately 192 days per year. That averages $218.75 per day.
The normal 8 to 5 office job that is only closed on the major holidays and gives you two weeks vacation per year averages about 240 days per year.
So the median teacher's salary in Huntsville is roughly equivalent to an annual salary of $52,500 if you do the math.
That is not all that bad. I know an HR director with 20 plus years of experience who doesn't make much more than that. I know an accountant, with a CPA and over five years experience, that doesn't make that much.
And yes, I know teachers have to grade papers at night, and they have to come in on weekends occasionally to work in their classrooms, but that CPA works 60 hours per week during tax season and the HR director has to work every other Saturday morning for orientation and works until 7:30 at night every Tuesday night as well. Few jobs don't require some time put in "after-hours" and none of the professions Psycho Triad mentioned were strictly 8 to 5 professions.
Personally, I think the vastly underpaid for the level of work they do award should go to cops and firefighters. In Birmingham, public school teachers start at $32,000 and firefighters start out at a little over $21,000. Firefighters don't get two months off in the summer, don't get holidays off, and average 52 hours per week.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: And yes, I know teachers have to grade papers at night, and they have to come in on weekends occasionally to work in their classrooms, but that CPA works 60 hours per week during tax season and the HR director has to work every other Saturday morning for orientation and works until 7:30 at night every Tuesday night as well. Few jobs don't require some time put in "after-hours" and none of the professions Psycho Triad mentioned were strictly 8 to 5 professions.
Personally, I think the vastly underpaid for the level of work they do award should go to cops and firefighters. In Birmingham, public school teachers start at $32,000 and firefighters start out at a little over $21,000. Firefighters don't get two months off in the summer, don't get holidays off, and average 52 hours per week.
I'm sorry, I'm going to apologize right now. I've had a really rough day today and this just wasn't what I needed to hear. I'm a third year teacher and obviously you have NO idea what it's like to be a teacher.
I will never say that I don't make enough money. It's fine. But, there are many teachers in small districts and rural areas that don't make enough.
I get to work by 7am (at the latest) every morning. Most days I work until 5, except Thursdays and I stay till 7. On the average, I work 60-65 hour weeks.
I take work home EVERY evening. I always have papers to grade and I spend a great deal of my "summers off" taking courses required by my school district or refining curriculum for the next year. Yes, I do take a few weeks and have fun, but most people get a few weeks off a year.
School districts have started to realize that they must offer more competitive starting salaries to teachers, but very few have yet to realize that they must also continue that as teachers continue to teach for them. The upward mobility is limited unless one wants to work in administration.
quote: So the median teacher's salary in Huntsville is roughly equivalent to an annual salary of $52,500 if you do the math.
Urban school district. Higher salary. Problem is, teachers don't make 52,000 a year, they make 42,000.
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003
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They had to set a minimum! Less desirable districts (like Dallas) have to offer more money in order to entice teachers because it's not easy to teach there. Rural and suburban districts are closer to the numbers.
posted
"Problem is, teachers don't make 52,000 a year, they make 42,000."
True, Cochinelle. Isn't it funny how people just have to add in those summer hours? And yet how many of us go in for weeks at a time to get ready for the year, copying, planning, moving furniture, trying new things, taking classes?
We are responsible for nurse duty, breaking up fights, negotiating seat changes, getting kids to pass state tests, soothing parents' anger and fears, modifying curriculum, keeping track of every communication between parent and student, and, oh yeah, teaching.
I am happy with what I make, but please don't try to tell me it actually matches the value of what I do.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Don't bother. Two years ago we had this debate and I spent hours researching census data, and quoting it here. Rather than taking things out of context and looking at one job in one state versus a friend in another state, I looked at national medians.
The claim is not that teachers are paid less for the same amount of work.
The fact is that no other career pays less, on the median, while requiring as much education.
None.
And yet, every time the topic comes up, Belle comes in and says the same thing.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I would love to e-speak with you some time about strategies you have for differentiated instruction, particularly how you challenge your brightest students, and the secretarial systems you use.
I have already implemented a token economy, and our math classes will be towns, with banks, and they will keep savings and checking accounts, have businesses, etc.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
As far as out-of-context anecdotal data: This is my tenth year as a full-time teacher, and I will make just under $35,000 this year. And I am freaking ecstatic, because this is a 9% pay raise over what I made last year.
To do this job, I walked away from a programming job, and then, when I moved to Central Florida, turned down two more. My last programming offer? $60,000 a year from Lockheed Martin.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Elizabeth, my aim nick is Pepe Icaro. You could also e-mail me, but I am having issues with one of my computers and e-mail, and rarely have time to check my personal e-mail. I'd be happy to share my professional e-mail addy with you privately.
I'm not sure how useful I can be. Maybe if you "prime the pump": tell me about what you're doing and I can tell you what comes to mind. I've always taught in schools that tracked, whether they admitted to the practice or not, and so I don't know how much insight I have into the specific issues of dealing with a variety of learning abilities at one time. One thing that I do now might be relevant. A lot of people seem to think that the way to deal with kids with more ability is to give them more work. While there is something to this, simply having more work would make me resentful. So in my softy old age, I have come to be a believer in extra-credit: not in the sense of a kid who never did any homework salvaging his grade by doing a report on Archimedes, but in the sense of weekly challenges and extra credit problems. What I find is that the brighter kids end up doing more work, but not because I forced them to. Instead, they get all enthusiastic. Every week, I put an Alphametic on the board, along with one of the challenge problems from the calendar in a back issue of Mathematics Teacher. One student answer in each class is drawn from a box each week for each problem, and receives extra credit, if his or her answer is correct, which can be used toward quizzes. I also give kids instant extra credit if they ever catch me (or the textbook) making a math mistake in class. So while the kids with less ability are focusing because of their need to focus, and because I am focusing on them, the gifted kids are focusing because they get great bragging rights if they catch me in a mistake! (And hey, being caught is better than teaching a struggling kid wrong becaused of a moment of carelessness.)
I also sometimes give extra-credit questions on quizzes for the naturally inquisitive and challenge-loving students to figure out. Sometimes they are tidbits from math history and I drop subtle (or not) hints ahead of time as to what they will be. For instance, Geometer's Sketchpad has many bugs when it comes to coordinate geometry. Not enough teachers use it for this, and so the kinks haven't been worked out. (Try graphing a variety of polynomial functions and you'll probably see what I mean. Start with y = x^3.) So I wondered aloud who coined the phrase "bug" to refer to a computer glitch, and mentioned how this would make a great extra-credit question. Bingo. I guarantee you some kids will research this, not because I made them (oh, how they would resent that) but because they feel like they will get a special reward for doing so!
Something else I do to address kids of all levels, but here I am thinkng especially of weaker kids, is use white boards for reviewing concepts. I have enough little white boards and markers for each kid to have one on his or her desk. I'll put review problems on the board and have the kids answer them in their notebooks and show me their answers on the white boards. Rather than the hit or miss methods of calling on kids, or waiting for them to volunteer, I get to have instant, threat-free (because this isn't a quiz and no grade is attached) feedback on how each kid understands. When I see a kid is confused, I can give him or her instant, individualized attention. What I do to keep the fastet moving kids is provide more problems, so that they can be a few problems ahead of struggling kids. How many problems depends on how many you feel you can look at at one time, because it can be a bit disconcerting when you have kids showing you the answers to multiple questions at the same time. I try to keep the kids working on only two different questions, and I often have a cheat sheet in hand with both answers.
I don't know if this is the sort of stuff you're looking for, but be in thouch and I'll see what else comes to mind.
I would highly recommend joining NCTM, subscribing to whichever magazine is appropriate to you, and attending conventions.
posted
Another thought: there are some great websites out there, like aplusmath.com, funbrain.com, cuttheknow.org, and so forth, that you might want to integrate, maybe on a fun day, if you have the time and access. Plan lessons using this ahead of time, though: don't use them as throwaway days. Not all of these sites offer the same thing. The first two I mentioned there are filled with review games, so you could have students working on different things, and they would enjoy them more than traditional drilling. Cuttheknot would be less for review and more for extension (including but not limited to your brilliant kids). Some of the activities there are well above the sophistication levels of typical high school students, whereas others are more appropriate things (like "Towers of Hanoi," a classic logic--and computer programming--problem). So you need to look in advance to find something appropriate, and read up on the extension information so that you know it as well as possible.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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We've always been happy with the public school system. The area we moved into is really big on homeschooling and private schools, and I've heard a lot of crap about how bad the public schools are.
Funny though, the crap is from people who've never used the public school system. We are thrilled with the school the kids go to. The teachers are wonderful! I feel my children are getting an excellant education.
posted
It's the most important job we have. We can't pay them enough. They dissuade the arsonist and the thief before the students commit the crime. Pay them as much we can, praise the best of them, and get rid of the rest.
posted
Pyscho- I think what Glenn is saying is that the schools do need more money, but it's very hard to say, "We need more money, but everything's going great." They need a reason to ask for more money, and "Our teachers aren't getting paid enough." usually doesn't work when it's a choice between cutting taxes and paying teachers what they deserve.
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You all have seen my effusive praise of my particular public school before, so I'll just say that yes, public schools and public school teachers rock.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Interesting, Paul. What happens if you track only two groups, I wonder--an elite group of top achievers and everybody below that?
Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:They dissuade the arsonist and the thief before the students commit the crime.
Actually, you're thinking of the PARENT, here.
Or you should be.
Junebug missed the cutoff for Kindergarten by one day last year-- we sent her to a private school, with the thought that this year, after a trial period, she'd be able to move on to first grade as normal in the public school system. We were a little antsy, because neither the kindergarten teacher nor the principal seemed exactly hip to the idea.
My daughter's a friggin' genius, I tell you. It took her one day to convince the naysayers that she was ready for first grade. She's now in the little geniuses program.
I'm a little worried though-- I don't think she likes school so much. She says the kids in her class don't pay attention to the teacher, and that the teacher yells at them too much. This is a very young teacher, IMO-- I place her at around 24-25 years old. We're keeping an eye on the situation. . .
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I'm both a teacher and a parent. In the life of an individual child, nobody has more impact than a parent. But parents typically have at most, what, eight kids? And they have parental authority. Teachers typically have closer to 200 kids, who arrive already having all sorts of varying patterns ingrained in them when it comes to learning, behavior, respect for authority, and so forth, and teachers lack the authority that parents have to address such issues.
I am certainly not trying to compare the two roles in terms of importance. However, we get bonus money in this state when our schools score an A on the FCAT. Last year in discussions on how to distribute this money, I saw parents argue in all seriousness that they should get the money, because they sent the kids in prepared to learn, and without them, the school would not have been as successful.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I hope my first post (up top) was not taken as a slam on teachers. My youngest (half-)sister is a teacher. We have many teachers and professors in extended parts of my family. I myself considered getting a teaching degree (because I was working as a classroom aide) but could see there was no money in it (which is why I went into technology and became a corporate trainer instead).
I'm not slamming public schools or public school teachers -- I think they are doing what they can under sometimes stupid guidelines.
But it is very hard for them, in that environment, to fulfill the needs of highly gifted kids. Especially because "no child left behind" really leaves out gifted kids entirely.
I applaud teachers who are trying to work within a difficult system.
posted
I am another that thinks that teachers don't make enough money. It's an interesting situation. Their hours are harder to calculate or appreciate than many other workers, because people tend to think of their time as beginning and ending with the school day and year, and yet we all really know that isn't the case at all. They are required to have quite a high level of education, and yet don't make as much money as many (most?) others with comparable credentials, and in many cases much less. Many of them, especially those that teach in specific fields such as science or math, but others as well, could make much more money if they went to work in business/industry.
However, my favorite argument for paying teachers more is based on the importance of their jobs. I can think of no profession that is more important to society. The only jobs that I would put on the same plane are those that involve public safety, e.g. police, fire, and emergency medical personnel. It is only reasonable that we should a) generously compensate those that perform the most important services for us, and b) seek to attract the best possible people to the most important professions, in part through attractive compensation.
I have no problem with the modern calls for greater accountability from teachers, including testing, evaluations, etc., but only if we first/simultaneously pay them sufficiently well so as to make it more likely that the people who can meet the higher standards are not driven from the profession to greener pastures, or even dissuaded from entering the profession in the first place.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Icarus, I will try(again) to get AIM working. My better half keeps taking it off when I put it on. Thanks for the advice. I LOVE the NCTM magazine, and you have just reminded me that I must join.
I am teaching fifth graders, and I have a range, in one class, of a student with an IQ of, I believe, 47, up to some pretty bright kids, but no super-duperly bright kids. I agree with you totally about the "just give the bright kids more work" approach as a flawed one. Just because they are bright does not mean they like homework any more than anyone else. (sometimes less, because they have gotten used to doing it so quickly.)
Because they are fifth graders changing classes SEVEN TIMES a day, I have math notebooks which stay in the classroom. There is a section called "My Challenges," and I try to put extra work in for kids who finish early, or just when we are done with a lesson sooner than I expected. This works because I can give those who need extra practice a simpler assignment, and give enrichment work to those who learn quickly.
Still, I feel like I have to constantly force myself to teach to the top.
I agree totally that the kids most left behind are the brightest. No one cares about them because they are ahead. If that makes sense. We just had our "Look how close these kids are to going up to the next level" meeting when the superintendent tells us to focus on the lowest scorers. Data. You've gotta hate it sometimes.
[ September 30, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
See I knew I'd get attacked when I came in here, and quite frankly, I'm sorry but I have to stand by the numbers.
If you want to make 52,000 instead of 42,000 get into a different profession. Fact is, 42,000 is good pay for the requirements of the job, in my view. That's my opinion, and I will continue to hold it.
You can say I have no idea what it takes to be a teacher - do you know what it takes to be a firefighter? A CPA during tax season? We can turn this around and say - do you really think you deserve more pay than those people for the hours and type of work you do?
Sorry, I don't think you necessarily do, and yet you make more than the firefighters do.
Icarus I'm sorry you make $35,000. That sucks. Do you have a master's degree?
And as for not knowing what it takes to be a teacher, yeah, slam on me all you want. I have done all the research possible to be sure I know what it takes. I know as much about what the job is going to entail before going into it than you did, I'm sure. Did you have the experience of being a mother with kids in public schools for five years before you made the decision to be a teacher? Had you volunteered in schools and spent a lot of time up there, talking to teachers and librarians before you went into it? I'm sure there will be things that I look back on after I'm working and say "Well, I really didn't have a clue" but can you say you had a much better clue than I do before you decided to make teaching your career?
I didn't decide to go back to school to finish my degree and plan on grad school to become an educator without knowing what it would entail. And I wouldn't waste my family's money paying for tuition if I didn't think it was 1) what I truly wanted to do with the rest of my life and 2) a job that I think would compensate me well for the work I'm doing
Now, I just got off the phone with my friend an elementary school teacher who called me a few minutes ago to invite my kids to a birthday party. It's 3:27. She just got home from work. Granted, her school is only five minutes from her house so she doesn't have a long commute.
I asked her how often she's up until midnight grading papers, and how many nights she's at the school until seven and she laughed at me. She has a master's degree in education, and she makes over $40,000 a year and she's home playing with her kids by 4:00.
Now, I'm not going into it for the hours, or for the money, but because I want to be a librarian and work with kids. I may not get into education at all, but instead take a job in a public library, it will depend on what my family's situation is at the time.
I'll tell you that you have certainly earned the right to whine all you want to about your salary, everyone has that right. And probably you do deserve more pay than you get but that argument can be made about a ton of professions. I much prefer to be in the company of educators like my friends who love their job, and celebrate the fact that they can do what they love, and still help support their families and be with their kids a lot more than the conventional eight to five job allows.
You have a good job, you know. Or, I think you do at least. But if you don't think you do, and you think it's terribly underpaid and you are working way too hard, then perhaps you need to look for a different profession.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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"You have a good job, you know. Or, I think you do at least. But if you don't think you do, and you think it's terribly underpaid and you are working way too hard, then perhaps you need to look for a different profession."
Wow. That was really hurtful. It reminds me so much of the "if you don't like this country then leave it" response to protesters.
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Straw man, Belle. You are adressing all sorts of claims I did not make, but ignoring the one I did. No other job requiring a bachelors degree has as low a national median income per hour than teaching does. Time off is irrelevant when hourly wages are concerned. I certainly never called into question your knowledge about teaching or your fitness to be a teacher. Sadly, you have not given me the same courtesy. You're right, I don't know how tough it is to be a mother of five. I'm sorry to hear you're apparently not cut out for it.
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I'll address your point - no other profession that requires a bachelor's is paid so low.
Okay, that sucks. Whose denying that? I'm not going to argue that teachers probably should be paid more, but I also don't think that they are the only profession that should be paid more or that they are the most underpaid professions when you consider the type of work, the hours, and the number of days they work.
But it gets under my skin to hear teachers that whine about how awful their situation is. No one owes you a specific salary - if you don't like what you're making Elizabeth - go find another job. You may find it hurtful - but it's just a fact.
If I worked in a job that I felt was overworking me and not compensating me fairly I would leave. I have done so. I was once being paid $18,000 a year to administer and award contracts worth more than $25 million. I was doing the work of a person who quit and who made over $50,000. I was told I couldn't make her salary because I didn't have a degree.
I thought it sucked. It made me unhappy and miserable and I felt dumped on. So I quit and found a job that paid more.
If teaching is making you unhappy and miserable because of the pay situation - then you should leave. But, if it's just something you like to grouse about on forums, and it's something you wish could be fixed but it's not something you feel is worth quitting your job for then don't quit. Stay and be a wonderful teacher who thinks she isn't compensated fairly.
And welcome to the world. There are millions upon millions of people who feel they aren't compensated to the level they should be. My point is you should enjoy the wonderful things about your job. If you don't think your job is wonderful, if the pay situation is that bad and it makes you miserable then go find another job in a different district or leave the profession.
That's not an attack on you - you may be hurt but it isn't personal (unlike Icarus' attack on me, but I expected it, so biggie) It's a fact that I would tell anyone in any job. If you think your salary is unfair, do what it takes to increase it to the most of your ability. Get a master's degree if the pay scale is higher. Move to a school system that pays more. If those thing aren't enough - then maybe teaching isn't for you.
Same goes for my husband's job at the fire department. He's way underpaid. But one can't pretend to have been misled - the salaries are public notice. He knew it going on, as you, presumably knew what teachers made when you went into it. If Wes ever felt that the salary situation was too much and it made him unhappy to the point he could no longer effectively do his job - he would leave and I would encourage that. Instead, he focuses on teh good things. He likes the work, so he is one of the fortunate that is able to say he enjoys his job. It allows for some freedoms that the nine to five office job doesn't. He can run a business on the side to supplement our income and he does. He makes the most of a job he loves.
If I'm ever in public education, I will do the same.
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Oh, and Icarus, I didn't mean to imply you called into question my ability to be a teacher - but Coccinelle did. My posts aren't addressed to only one person in this thread, but trying to answer everything that is brought my way.
Sorry if that was not clear and you thought I was implying you had said that. Even if you did think that, your remark about my parenting was out of line.
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"No one owes you a specific salary - if you don't like what you're making Elizabeth - go find another job. You may find it hurtful - but it's just a fact."
Yes, it is a fact that you are hurting my feelings.
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This was my response to your original "teachers are less important than lots of other people" post:
"I am happy with what I make, but please don't try to tell me it actually matches the value of what I do."
In other words, Belle, I know well that I can make more money, but it will not be worth what I feel inside when I am teaching. Unfortunately, administrators prey on this side of teachers, that we teach despite the low salary compared to qualifications/tests, and certifications. I am sorry you see us as not being worth more. And you really are hurting my feelings, yet all you do is slam me more in response.
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And Belle, if you knew me at all, you would know that I speak with joy and humor about my work. It is a very, very important part of my life. It seems that I have somehow gotten in the middle of some hornet's nest, and I am backing out slowly.
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Belle, the big problem is that the really good teachers, the ones we want in the job, are almost always qualified to take higher paying jobs. Many of them do, which is a hugs loss to all of us. Those that do not (and there are many, many of these), are in fact making a big sacrifice to do something that they believe in.
It is my opinion that this should not be that huge of a sacrifice. Teaching should be as honored a profession as those few others that are of highest real importance to society. Unfortunately, it is not.
(By the way, your point about salaries for firefighters, etc., is far from universal. In fact, every year when the local newspaper prints its list of the top-paid public employees in the state, many of the highest, including about seven or eight of the top ten, are firefighters. Seriously. And I don't believe there is anyplace in the country where a public school teachers would show up on that list.)
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Yes, you got it exactly. And it's nice to be in a thread where my comments are respected and understood. Thanks.
BTW, a whole 'nuther issue is substituting. In my district, certified teachers get $65 per day, uncertified substitutes get less, but I'm not sure how much. I'm certified, and they told me I can expect to substitute 160 days per year or less. That's $10,400 per year, and I've gotta be available to take the call whenever it comes, and take all the crap when the kids test the rules with the sub, and show up at any of 18 different schools and so on. In some ways, granted, it's easier, since I don't have to plan lessons in advance. But then, I've gotta plan lessons on the fly or work with no plans at all.
And I left a career in combustion research for this?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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My remark about your parenting was precisely in line. You said that if people were whining about the challenges of teaching, then perhaps they were not cut out to be a teacher. That's a pretty low strategy to end any debate: anybody who answers it is effectively pre-emptively characterized as not really being cut out to be a teacher anyway. It would be EXACTLY the same if I suggested there are two types of parents: those who don't think it's challenging and those who are not really cut out to do the job. Now you can't say that it's challenging without placing yourself in an unfavorable position. You did it at least twice in this thread, and I found it obnoxious. I certainly don't have an opinion on your parenting one way or the other--I have way too little to draw on to form one. (Just as you don't know enough about my teaching to presume to judge it.) But I was turning your rude little rhetorical trick back onto you in an aspect of your life I know you hold as dear to you as teaching is to me. Didn't like it, did you? Stop implying that teachers who think they are underpaid are arrogant whiners who would be no good as colleagues and aren't really cut out to be teachers, and I'll take it back.
Ask any teacher: no single thing anybody can say about you professionally hurts more than suggesting you are not fit for your job. If you are a teacher, and you have stuck with it despite the demands, the low esteem in which some hold you, and the extremely low pay, there is a good chance you have chosen to make this sacrifice because you love kids, because you love your field, because you think doing something important trumps getting paid what you are worth, and because you want to make the world better. Your statement was an attack, and it was a hurtful one.
But hey, now you're finally addressing my point. You're rude, but then, I can't have everything. So why don't I address what you have said:
quote: I'll address your point - no other profession that requires a bachelor's is paid so low.
Okay, that sucks. Whose denying that? I'm not going to argue that teachers probably should be paid more, but I also don't think that they are the only profession that should be paid more . . .
Who has said they are? The first time we went around and around with this, I repeatedly granted that hell, yeah, firemen, cops, and EMTs should be paid more than they are due to the risks and value of their profession. Heck, someone else granted the same point here. Why do you seem to think that the proposal to pay teachers correspondingly to their importance, and to the level of preparation we expect from them, is a threat to other underpaid jobs? Sooner or later, you argument has always come down to that. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.
There are three reasons people give why jobs should be paid more per hour: qualifications required (i.e., scarcity of applicants), importance to society, and danger involved. If you only care about one of those, Belle, then you can argue that only firefighters and cops should be paid more and not teachers. If you only care about one of those, you can also make the argument that only teachers deserve more, and not cops or firefighters or EMTs. I look at all three, and am perfectly willing to acknowledge that we underpay a lot of important people.
quote: But it gets under my skin to hear teachers that whine about how awful their situation is. No one owes you a specific salary
Can you kindly point me to a single example of where this was done in this thread before you came in and pronounced that teachers whine about being underpaid but in fact are not?
This was not a thread on teacher salaries until you made it one. And it was well on its way to becoming a thread on teaching strategies before you forced it back on topic. There were a few acknowledgments of a truth that the vast majority of people in the United States have acknowledged for decades, but typically just in the scope of talking about where money needed to be spent.
quote: That's not an attack on you - you may be hurt but it isn't personal . . .
Right. When you refer to teachers as "whining" and as "arrogant in the extreme," when you passive/aggressively say that you would rather be friends with educators who love their jobs and don't think they are underpaid (where do you find these? ) instead of whiny teachers, you are not indicting me personally,or Elizabeth personally, just pretty much all teachers. It's not personal though. Bless our little hearts.
quote:. . . unlike Icarus' attack on me, but I expected it, so biggie
Why? I have never been anything but gracious to you, despite your repeated characterizations over the past two years of teachers as "whining," and "arrogant"--both words you have specifically used. Hell, this past summer when everyone was going on about what a bigot you were due to your views on homosexuality, I was your single most vocal defender. So why do you claim to expect rudeness from me? Aside from this thread, when your repeated rudeness finally got under my skin, can you kindly give me an example of when I have ever been rude to you?
quote:Hear me out without throwing chalk at me please.
quote: See I knew I'd get attacked when I came in here,
Preemptive martyr syndrome? So, if I were to use cute little bookend phrases like that, could I protect myself from rebuttal if I made statements that the vast majority of people believe to be patently false? Cute. Hear me out before you go getting annoyed please. Christians are responsible for most of the world's ills of the last two thousand years. Hey, why are you getting all mad at me? Well, I knew I would get attacked, but, sorry, I have to stand by the numbers.
-o-
Hornet's nest? I'm just annoyed by the same things as you, Elizabeth, although admittedly more so because I have been down this road before. As far as Belle's apparent grudge against me, I frankly don't know where it comes from.
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quote: Yes, you got it exactly. And it's nice to be in a thread where my comments are respected and understood.
Glenn, I hope I haven't caused you at any point to feel that your comments were not respected. I say this because we talked about the Sandia report once before in a thread, and so I'm wondering if you felt like you were not listened to in that thread . . . ?
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quote:They dissuade the arsonist and the thief before the students commit the crime. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, you're thinking of the PARENT, here.
Or you should be.
We don't send criminals to their parent's place when they commit the crime. We send them to jail, and we don't expect them to behave well only in their parent's house, we expect them to be honest in public also. If the state has these expectations, then it's the state's responsibility to make sure that they are responsibly met.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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UofUlawguy, congratulations. And thanks for your thoughts on our public schools. I think that the teachers, for the most part, are doing a great job! My experience last year was eerily similar to your own this year.
I, like you obviously have, taught my son to read by the age of three. An easy feat if the child is ready.
I had my doubts about the teacher this year, but my kid is moving right along, and I can't believe the progress they are now making on math.
Congrats, Dad! And don't forget the hard-working parents that gave your child the gift of literacy!
Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Actually, I don't think I really taught him to read. That is, we never had any actual lessons on the subject at home. We just had all the tools available. We had lots of alphabet books and puzzles, etc., and we have always done a whole lot of reading together. He asks a lot of questions, and we try our best to answer them. Using all of that, he really taught himself to read.
Math is a different story. My sister-in-law, who lives with us, has spent a lot of time teaching him arithmetic. His own interest has been the driving force, though.
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quote:If the state has these expectations, then it's the state's responsibility to make sure that they are responsibly met.
How far are you willing to take this idea, Irami?
Parents have the responsability to be the main educators and moral supervisors of children. Not the state. I send my children to school because there are subjects that I don't know anything about and don't have time to teach them. In addition, my children go to school to learn how to act around people who are not in our immediate social circle.
But I am responsible for their education, both the moral and the intellectual. The state is a secondary entity.
I didn't see where Belle was rude. She certainly has not called down anyone's teaching capabilities, or anyone's parenting skills. The animosity directed toward her is out of line.
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) instead of whiny teachers, you are not indicting me personally,or Elizabeth personally, just pretty much all teachers. It's not personal though. Bless our little hearts.
