posted
I have already explained where she was rude. She quite clearly suggested that teachers who think they are underpaid are whining, and that they are in teaching for the wrong reasons, would make poor colleagues, and ought to consder leaving the profession. I have also already clarified that I don't, in fact have any criticisms of Belle's parenting skills--but I can see how you would miss that when you only read every fourth post in a thread--but that the comment I made was exactly the same kind of comment she made.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: I didn't see where Belle was rude. She certainly has not called down anyone's teaching capabilities . . .
I think it's worth noting that every single teacher who has posted in this thread has found her comments hurtful. Maybe we're all too mercenary, and that's why it strikes too close to home. Huh. I guess UofULawGuy is wrong; education is in really bad shape.
I'd be curious to know if there are any full-time professional teachers at Hatrack who don't find her comments insulting.
quote:"You have a good job, you know. Or, I think you do at least. But if you don't think you do, and you think it's terribly underpaid and you are working way too hard, then perhaps you need to look for a different profession."
Um. . . I took this as good advice.
If my kid worked as a grocery store stock boy, and thought he was underpaid, working way too hard, and thought his job sucked-- I'd advise him to find another job.
If I was working on a technical helpdesk, was working way too hard, was underpaid, and thought my job sucked, I would hope someone gave me this advice.
If I were a soldier in the army, and worked way too much for the compensation I received, and hated my job, I would find other work.
But if I'm a teacher. . . what? I agree that the public should pay more for teachers who merit the pay hike, but if you fit the criteria Belle laid out-- man, you're (that's a general you're, not a specific one) an idiot for staying.
Let's review:
*Working Too Hard *Not Enough Pay *Hate Your Job
Get another career. It works for the rest of the world. The last would be enough for me to quit.
EDIT: Speaking in generalities. I do not believe that Icarus or any of the others that have posted here hate their job.
[ October 01, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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The problem is Belle's equating the statement that teachers are underpaid with teachers hating their jobs. That's a lot like saying that people who criticize America hate America, and should love it or leave it. It is possible to love America and want to improve it. It is possible to choose to stay in teaching when more financially rewarding options are available, because you find other intangible rewards, and yet recognize that there are issues: there is a significant disparity between the pay of teachers and the pay of other professions requiring similar qualifications (even correcting for the time off that teachers have), and paying teachers a salary in line with what professionals make would allow us as a society to raise our expectations for teacher and school performance, because it would alleviate the teacher shortage we face.
Initially, at least, Belle didn't give us that option. She denied that teachers are underpaid, and said those who thought so were whining, and, taking this as evidence that they hate their jobs, suggested they quit.
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posted
And you know what? I do regret what I said. I am angry. I don't take that back. I do found Belle's comments offensive, for the reasons I detailed above. I don't believe she is a bad parent, but I wanted to give her a taste of her own medicine. (And after all, like me, she does vent about the difficulties of parenting developmentally delayed kids. Complaining means you hate something, right?)
But "giving somebody a taste of their own medicine" probably never works for much in a discussion, and I stooped to a level I shouldn't have.
posted
And I was rude to you as well, Scott. I'm sorry for that. I went to bed and woke up feeling bad about what I said, and feeling like I should apologize, and opened this thread up to find you criticizing me for something I already felt I had done wrong, and it got my dander right back up.
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quote:How far are you willing to take this idea, Irami?
At this point, I'd be happy if any of the candidates said it in the state of the Union. It's a matter of tone, and maybe curriculum and teacher training. It doesn't have to be expensive. Of course, the primary responsibility falls to the parents, but I wouldn't even mind a more obvious push on parent training? Though the parents who would seek this out would probably be the ones who need it the least.
posted
I always felt it was incongruous that I had to take a parenting course to adopt, but people who give birth don't have to do the same. I don't have a solution or policy change to offer, but I did always find it weird.
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posted
Maybe some free, voluntary parenting classes.
I think I would go. I think I'd already be a good parent, but it'd be great to learn more.
And Icarus, thanks for sticking up for the teachers. I was a teacher for two years and it was extremely hard work. I left the profession--it wasn't for me. But I wanted to speak out in their defense anyway. You did much better than I would have. So thanks.
No, more often than not, no one responds to my comments at all. I guess part of that is simply that I'm not as prolific as some one this board, so my comments are simply "insertions," rather than part of the general conversation, so people continue with their own train of thought. For some reason also (I haven't thought of a mechanism that would cause it to be so) a lot of my posts seem to be the last post in a thread. I poke my head in and the thread just ends. Can't figure that one out at all.
But when I wrote the post you were responding to, I was in the midst of an argement in another thread, where my words were taken the wrong way, and at least one person was accusing me of racism. So I was venting, more than anything else.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I used to feel, for the first eight months or so I was here, that I was the designated thread killer. I think everybody thinks so for a period. I don't think anybody chooses to ignore someone who is new or has a lower post count, but sometimes people do make an effort to respond to a point they might not have otherwise because it was raised by somebody they know. I'd love to see you around in more threads. I don't know that I've seen whatever thread you were getting accused of being racist in--as you can see here, though, arguments and flamewars happen among anybody *shrug*--but I have enjoyed the posts of yours I had noticed in education threads. I had heard of the Sandia Report before you brought it up, but I learned a lot more about it from you. I will definitely perk up and pay attention when I see your posts in other threads.
Kat, thank you. I appreciate the kind words.
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posted
Isn't that funny. I assumed I was the thread killer. Katarain, I don't see you post in too many threads, plus I tend to stay to the full world. I am not good at arguing, because I have a really hard time keeping my emotions out of my argument, so I just say, OK, back to the Lyrics thread, and off I go. I tend to just read the more serious threads. And Glenn, you pointed out how important a poor educational system would be for a president, and I thought WOW! that is so true. How could he get credit for fixing it if it wasn't messed up?
Edit: See? I told you I was a thread-killer!
[ October 03, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I actually don't post very often, which is probably why you don't see my posts very often.. hehe...
I try not to post if I don't have anything to say. Sometimes, I'll think I brought up a new and wonderous point that needs to be refuted by the other side of whatever debate is going on and it will be totally ignored. Such is the way of things, no? I can't help comparing the experience to when Peter and Valentine were using their throwaway identities to learn to get responses on the nets.
I'm really not complaining. Just telling Glenn Arnold that I know what he's saying. Hatrack is addictive, so I expect before long my post count will be much higher. I don't know if it'll get TOO much higher. I was on a Buffy forum for two years and my post count is still around 600. I think it might be because I generally don't post in the "chat" type threads. So, nobody ever really gets to know me.
posted
Icarus, Glenn Arnold is talking about me, even though I accused no one of racism. I accused him of ignorance and attributing the acts of a minority of a group to the majority of the same group. He has, to date, refused to change his story, and I have no desire to try to argue with someone who is already convinced they have it correct and everyone else just misunderstands. What I do not appreciate, however, is being misrepresented across threads as if I were trying to personally attack Glenn Arnold. It is childish to behave that way.
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posted
You are intentionally antagonizing. I am setting straight something that was said as an attack of my argument. Claiming you are being misrepresented by me and then misrepresenting me is hypocritical and childish.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I quoted you, and said the quoted portion reminded me of you. You entered this thread with a personal attack, which you were upset to see turned back upon yourself. Please show me how I have misrepresented you.
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posted
1. It was not a personal attack. It was a defense and accusation about the motive behind the claims made here about me.
2. You added nothing about what I was addressing, not even that you know what thread Gelnn Arnold or I am referring to.
3. It is coincidental that you are posting antagonizing remarks to me so shortly after the posts on the "escapist" thread.
4. You are trying to turn a defense I made against me for no reason, which is either agreeing that I called Glenn Arnold a racist or is just trying to antagonize me.
5. I was unaware that it is against the forum rules to defend one's self against such blatant misrepresentation, though I am sure it is not.
6. You did nothing but attack my character. Leave me alone.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: You could also e-mail me, but I am having issues with one of my computers and e-mail, and rarely have time to check my personal e-mail.
I'll take this as the main reason you've not written me back. If there's any other reason besides this...you'd better let me know. Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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If I use Outlook on my main home computer, it freezes up altogether, and the whole computer needs to be restarted. If I use Outlook Express instead, I can read e-mails, but when I try to send them out, same thing happens again.
You can send e-mails to my work addy instead: iriartej AT osceola DOT k12 DOT fl DOT us
Sorry. I seriously am not intending to snub anybody. Do you have AIM? I'm on a lot of nights. I'll be on after ten or so tonight.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I see people putting links into their messages, but with different text than the URL. I was going to put one here for the thread in question, but I don't know how to do it.
quote: You are intentionally antagonizing. I am setting straight something that was said as an attack of my argument. Claiming you are being misrepresented by me and then misrepresenting me is hypocritical and childish.
Who's intentionally antagonizing? I didn't identify you in this thread, only answered the question about why I was venting. You identified yourself, and made it clear that you're still spoiling for a fight.
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Looks like this one oughta work. Thanks. BTW, dkw, given your expertise in religious issues, I'd be curious to hear your opinion of my comment (and justification and rebuttal). Perhaps a little mediation is in order, if Jutsa Notha Name is amenable to that.
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I don't think anybody chooses to ignore someone who is new or has a lower post count, but sometimes people do make an effort to respond to a point they might not have otherwise because it was raised by somebody they know. I'd love to see you around in more threads. I don't know that I've seen whatever thread you were getting accused of being racist in--as you can see here, though, arguments and flamewars happen among anybody *shrug*--but I have enjoyed the posts of yours I had noticed in education threads. I had heard of the Sandia Report before you brought it up, but I learned a lot more about it from you. I will definitely perk up and pay attention when I see your posts in other threads. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
