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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Children Really Are Alien, Aren't They? (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Children Really Are Alien, Aren't They?
Noemon
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One of my co-workers brought his grandson into work today. Seems like a remarkably well behaved kid; I don't think that at 3 or so I'd have been nearly so well behaved after 6 hours in a cube farm as he has been. Observing him, though, the alienness of the child mind is really evident. One of my co-workers has a little stuffed gorilla hanging in his cube that, when you squeeze it, issues a cat call and says "I go bananas over you". For the past 20 minutes or so, this kid has been squeezing the toy and listening to it over and over. Every now and then he'll laugh uproariously at it. I wonder what he's getting from that? I remember being a kid well enough to know that it isn't likely to be anything that an adult could guess. There could be some quality of the tinny little voice that he finds particularly engaging, or the way the doll vibrates when it speaks, or any of a hundred other things that we can't even conceive of. Celia has talked about puzzling over computer paper as a toddler, I think, and I know that when I was a kid I would sit there, absolutely fascinated by the perfection of a geometric shape. Maybe it's just a result of not having been dulled to the world by contant exposure, but I do think that kids possess a mindset that is largely alien to the adult mindset.
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Scott R
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My older two get a jolt out of telling Litebrite to open her mouth when she's eating.

Over, and over, and over, and over. . .

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Xaposert
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Hmmm.... I always thought adults were the aliens. Still do, actually. [Smile]
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Tatiana
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To me it's the adult mind which is so alien.

Listening to how some odd sound sounds.... that's something that one can do over and over, you know? I mean, you already KNOW how it sounds. You did that experiment already. But kids don't.

I realized once that I already know how all sorts of things taste, like dirt, rusty nails, sidewalk pavement, all sorts of materials like cloth, plastic, carpet, rocks of various composition, sticks, tree bark, grass, etc. I can look at those things as an adult and know how they would taste. How did I come by such knowledge? Obviously by doing the necessary experiments as a child. There are lots of things we as adults already know and take for granted that kids have to learn by doing. Maybe the way squeak toys sound is like that.

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Scott R
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If this is alienhood, call me Marvin.

There was a time for childhood, and now I'm beyond all that.

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Icarus
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I think Tatiana's point is an important one. Dealing with two developmentally delayed kids, I get a frequent dramatic exposure to just how much abstraction we take for granted. Little things like "begin," and "end," or "similar." How do you define those without being circular? This may not seem to directly apply to the example in the first post, but I think it speaks to a different way of looking at the world.
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CStroman
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It's not alien. It's the innocence and simplicity of the mind of a child that is so worthy of appreciation.

Remember the "Everything I needed to know about life, I learned in Kindergarten" or whatever it was called?

My oldest is 3 and youngest is 18 mos. There is a sweetness about them that I absolutely love.

I look at them and then look at the society that surrounds them and I feel actual "fear" for them.

That's all I'll say. We have created a world that is not safe for children, and that's wrong.

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Dagonee
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The process of generalization is amazing to watch. I bought a friends daughter the Rockin' Elmo doll. You push a red button on the guitar and Elmo would sing one of three songs.

Once she figured out how to push the button, she'd push it and wag her butt back and forth to dance to the music. The button was a round red plastic know about the size of a quarter.

A couple of days later, we noticed that she was pushing the tops of her red duplo blocks and would start waving her butt back and forth in anticipation of the music. There were about 5 different similarly-shaped knobs on her toys, and she tried them all until she realized that only the one on Elmo's guitar makes music come out.

Dagonee

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CStroman
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Don't put her in the oval office...there's a red button there you don't want to have pushed....(sounds like something from a comedic movie....or something)

[ October 25, 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: CStroman ]

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Jonathan Howard
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I'm eccentric, bizzare and well berserked.

But then, I'm an adolescent with too much complexity, too little sophistication, too much of the wrong vocabulary, and a weird bunch of D*ckies (=Dictators, parents).

All stupid remarks of mine are subject (partly) to a South-African racist's polluting of my mind (similar circumstances).

Don't take me wrong, I'm not a racist. I just suffer the fate of a SA weirdo behind my back, in school.

Yours unusually,

Jonny

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TomDavidson
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"We have created a world that is not safe for children, and that's wrong."

Hm. I would say that this is probably less true now than at any time in human history.

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CStroman
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quote:
Hm. I would say that this is probably less true now than at any time in human history.
I'm speaking in terms of Violent Crimes against Children, and this country specifically.

Maybe you know more than I on this, but I mean mortallity rate of children due to violent crime.

If I am wrong, and we really do live in a paradise for children, let me know.

EDIT: On a worldwide scale, the morallity rate of children due to violence has got to be off the charts.

[ October 25, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: CStroman ]

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katharina
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quote:
On a worldwide scale, the morallity rate of children due to violence has got to be off the charts.
Back it up.

I'm with Tom - there's still violence against children, but the last century has seen it get one thousand times less common, rather than more.

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Noemon
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I agree with Anne Kate about why children seem so different; that's definitely what's behind it. I can remember being entranced by how things looked from one angle versus another, and I can remember my experiments with gravity--I'd attempt to pick myself up, one leg at a time. Never did work, but I can remember trying it over and over.

I disagree, though, with the idea that children are sweet and innocent. There is an innocence there, in that they simply haven't had many of the experiences that we have, but I remember being a kid to well to think that they're just little bundles of sweetness and light.

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Xaposert
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What strikes me as weird about adults is they don't find things like that entertaining and amusing. My suspicion is that they actually do, but don't want to admit it - and pretend otherwise to such a degree that they come to believe their own illusion. In this way, they are alien, even to themselves.
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CStroman
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This has some interesting stats and links to other stats as well. It looks like 1992-93 was the worst years and that it has been declining since then.

D.o.J.

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Noemon
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I can still appreciate some of the things that I did as a child--my reaction to natural landscapes now is pretty much the same as my reaction to geometric shapes once were, for example. I guarantee you, though, that I was in the dark as to what it was that that kid found so fascinating about that stuffed gorilla. I know that it had to do with the sound it was making, but beyond that I wouldn't presume to guess. Sometimes he would laugh in delight at the thing, other times just watch it.

I do think, though, that to some degree children just process input differently than adults. For example, when I was a kid I despised the flavor of cantalope. To me, they tasted like rotting food, and I couldn't believe that anyone would put something that tasted like that into their mouths voluntarily more than once. I can still remember what they tasted like to me. They don't taste that way to me anymore. I can taste what it is in them that my child mind interpreted as rotten, but now it tastes delicious to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't physiological changes that go along with changes like this, but I've never seen any research on it. Sara, do you know of any?

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TomDavidson
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Chad, a literal translation of your link is that 1992-1993 -- the height of the crack cocaine wars -- was the peak of violent crime among people aged 12 to 24 since 1973.

Note the qualifiers.

[ October 25, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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CStroman
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That was as far back as the study went. I was able to find "Homicide Rates" from 1900-2000, (which show a huge swing upwards overall) but not ones relating to children specifically.

I did find this Surgeon's General Report as well.
Youth Violence

Also the "School Related Lethal Violence" on the preceeding page was an interesting study as well.

We didn't have Columbine's on the Elementary, Junior High, and High School Level.

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Synesthesia
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I think on some levels I'm still a kid. For example, stupid things make me laugh myself half to death.
Like PECTOPAH which is Russian for resturant. This can have me laughing for ages.
The other day I was laughing at work at a Michael Bolton song.
I used to do things like that as a little kid. Just get amused for hardly any reason at all.
I suppose it's a good thing...

On some level things are safer for children. In this country back in the past if you were poor you'd be stuck in a factory getting limbs chewed off or something. Children have been preyed on through the ages.
At least these days there are laws and resources for a child.
But still, a lot slip through the cracks. We really do need to work hard to make the world much better for kids... There's still a lot that needs to be done.

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TomDavidson
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So it's the particular TYPE of violence being experienced by children today that you mind? It's worse to be killed in school by other schoolchildren than to, say, be worked to death in a private orphanage, develop black lung, or be beaten catatonic by a pimp?

I'd also argue that teenagers are not "innocent children" in the context of this thread, but that's another point entirely.

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CStroman
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All I'm saying (and like I admitted, I could be wrong) is that places that were once safe for children, are no longer safe today. If you send a child to a mine, then of course that is dangerous. Likewise with rape, etc.

All I know (and this could be a different experience for you) is that I walked to school every day of my young life and the risk of being abducted was minimal.

Parents didn't walk their kids to school because they didn't need to.

Kids weren't getting killed on Schoolbuses by other kids and I didn't have to worry about some teenager comming to school to shoot it up.

When I drive past the local school on my way to work, just about every kid is accompanied by a parent.

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TomDavidson
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"All I know (and this could be a different experience for you) is that I walked to school every day of my young life and the risk of being abducted was minimal."

The risk is still minimal. Parents are more afraid than they used to be, but do not have particularly good justification for that fear.

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CStroman
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quote:
The risk is still minimal. Parents are more afraid than they used to be, but do not have particularly good justification for that fear.
If you say so. I know it probably doesn't exist. But is there a history of School Lethal Violence that has been tracked the last hundred years or so?
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Bokonon
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Chad, the truth is, most stats from the early 20th century are sketchy and to be viewed as somewhat unreliable at best. Stats prior to the 1900s I would view very skeptically, stats since the 40s or 50s I would more or less accept, but I still think that up until the 70s and 80s, a lot of creimes that get counted now, even violent ones, would not have been reported. As far as Columbine-type violence, that may be a latter day innovation, what will those crazy kids think of next?!

-Bok

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CStroman
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quote:
what will those crazy kids think of next?!

That's what scares me on behalf of my children.
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Sara Sasse
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Should anyone be so inclined to look it up, there is good data on whether abductions of children have increased over the last 50 years (they haven't). I could be persuaded to track down the information for a nice sonnet about me. [Big Grin]

Morbidity and mortality secondary to infectious disease are much decreased over the last hundred years, though. This has been the biggest risk to the health and welfare of kids by far. [Frown]

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Sara Sasse
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Noemon, though I would have just been guessing five minutes ago (an educated guess, but admittedly a guess), I can now direct you to About.com on "A Matter of Taste.

The teaser:
quote:
Furthermore, the receptivity of specific taste cells can change over time; one reason why people often find their taste preferences changing in later years.
The tantalizing "fifth taste" digression:
quote:
Although all of the above is established fact, there is some dispute in the scientific community over just how many taste sensations we have. In the west, it's generally accepted that there are four: sweet, bitter, sour, and salty. By contrast, the Chinese believe we possess a fifth taste sensation for pungent foods.
...
As for the theory of five tastes, it gained further support in 1908, when Japanese researcher Kikunae Ikeda found that the glutamate contained in seaweed sauce triggered a fifth taste which the Japanese call umami. It's hard to describe umami. It's commonly translated as meaning "meaty" or "savory" but there's more to it than that - an incomparable taste sensation that encompasses all of the senses (one newspaper article I found equated it with perfect sex). Ikeda's discovery led to the mass production of Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) a flavor enhancer widely used in Chinese and Japanese cooking. Last year researchers at the University of Miami succeeded in proving that taste receptors for umami exist, making it likely that the existence of five tastes will eventually gain general acceptance.

There is a link to About.com on "Physiology of Taste," but I am still searching for the detailed information you so desire. What a sweet find that would be.
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CStroman
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CDC rates of homicide in children

quote:
During 1950-1993, the overall annual death rate for U.S. children aged less than 15 years declined substantially (1), primarily reflecting decreases in deaths associated with unintentional injuries, pneumonia, influenza, cancer, and congenital anomalies. However, during the same period, childhood homicide rates tripled, and suicide rates quadrupled (2). In 1994, among children aged 1-4 years, homicide was the fourth leading cause of death; among children aged 5-14 years, homicide was the third leading cause of death, and suicide was the sixth
That's what scares me. As a parent, I can do what I can to protect my child from diseases, etc. but I can only protect my child to a certain degree when the harm comes in the form of another child or adult. I can't control their actions, thoughts, or deeds.

quote:
Overall, the data provided by the 26 countries included a total of 2872 deaths among children aged less than 15 years for a period of 1 year. Homicides accounted for 1995 deaths, including 1177 (59%) in boys and 818 (41%) in girls. Of the homicides, 1464 (73%) occurred among U.S. children. The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51)
As a parent, that scares the !#@$ out of me.
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Sara Sasse
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FWIW, there are some risk factors for adolescent violent injury that you can have some influence on as a parent. Alcohol use is associated with being both a victim of and a perpetrator of homicide and other assaults. Suicide attempts are correlated with alcohol use.

(Should anyone like some stats to back this up and for a clarification of why this is likely a causative as well as correlative association, I refer y'all to my upcoming article in the Wisconsin Medical Journal. Boo for violence. [Frown] Yay for frequen' getting published! [The Wave] )

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dkw
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Yay for Sara! [The Wave]
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CStroman
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That is cool! [Party]
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Dagonee
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Woohoo Sara!
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Sara Sasse
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Thank you, thank you, thankyou verramuch.

You will all be receiving copies for Christmas. [Big Grin]

(Please go ahead and return to your regularly scheduled thread -- I just had to celebrate when the topic came up. The article goes out for peer review on Friday, but as it is a solicited article for a special issue on injury prevention, it is guaranteed a slot. We'll see how many revisions, though.)

[ October 25, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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rivka
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Congratulations, Sara! That is AWESOME! [Big Grin]

Out of curiosity, will this article be easily accessible (vocabulary- and background-wise) to the layperson? Like, can I give copies to my students (as I do of many articles, as relevant) and say -- oh-so-casually [Wink] -- "Yeah, I know the author?"

[ October 25, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]

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Scott R
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Carefree childhoood?

Bah. Children don't think their lives are free of care. Children, even those that live idyllic American lives, believe their lives to be full of tragedy and glory.

When we grow up, we learn to hone our capacity for tragedy and glory-- we seek glory in only in certain fields, and expect tragedy in certain quarters. Certain things-- a newfound zest for a certain hobby or trait, bring to mind the childish capacity for deep, self-involved glory. Or-- death, perhaps-- brings us to the consuming depression that perhaps only children are capable of.

But let's not delude ourselves with thinking that childhood is innocent. Oh no. Childhood is war and tears, glory and mud.

There is something to be said for the moderating power of GROWING UP.

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Xaposert
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Nonsense... what's the point of life if not tragedy and glory?

Adults have it just as much as children - but adults attempt to escape it.

[ October 25, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

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Noemon
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Sara, congratulations! That's fantastic news!

quote:
But let's not delude ourselves with thinking that childhood is innocent. Oh no. Childhood is war and tears, glory and mud.
I love the way you expressed that Scott! Very well said.
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mackillian
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Sara! Wooo!
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Chris Bridges
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For Sara:

Shall I compare thee to a forum's post?
   Thou art more lasting and more true:
For few words have weight, when said by most
   At least, when compared to words from you:
Tempers flare and battles sought
   When opinions clash with words of steel:
But thy fair post will bring them nought
   Save sense and reason and words that heal:
Wher'ver wars of opinion burst, erupt
   Thine smiling face will calm the sky:
As soothing oils in your hands are cup't
   and spread when you click on "Add Reply."

So long as man can read, or minds can see,
   Our beloved Sara will come, to referee.

[ October 26, 2004, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]

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Noemon
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::applauds::
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pooka
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I still need to check Sara's link, but I have to comment that Chad has provided two links and Tom, with no links, keeps insisting Chad is wrongheaded.
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rivka
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pooka, I agree with Tom on this, actually, and links are only useful to a certain degree. Providing evidence is well and good; but more links doesn't necessary mean more correct, neh?

The simplest way to prove that the world is currently safer (in a purely physical sense, anyway) is to look at infant mortality and life expectancy. The first is much lower this century than it has been in any prior century; the second far higher.

The simple fact is that the average child born in 1850 did not live to adulthood.



And Chris, that was brilliant! [Big Grin]

[ October 26, 2004, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]

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Noemon
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Yeah, what rivka said. I can't imagine an argument that would undermine the proofs offered by those two statistics.

By the way Chris, I'm officially filing your sonnet away with Dan_Raven's Frosty the Demon[/url] and my [i]Feelin' Snarky (yes, yes, I know, it's bad form to count something you did yourself in august company, but I'd include it in a second if someone else had created it, so I figured what the hell).

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TomDavidson
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"Tom, with no links, keeps insisting Chad is wrongheaded."

*polite cough*
No, I'm insisting he's wrong. There's a difference there, one which I believe to be quite significant.

The statistics Chad has provided are limited in scope to the kind of statistics that we, as a modern society, are interested in tracking. These statistics are not particularly relevant to determining quality of life, or life expectancy, or "scariness" of life, especially when expected to account for multiple generations during which these statistics were not tracked.

In several cases, the statistics only go back twenty years -- a generation and a half -- and concentrate on violent crime in the 12-24 age group, a group that until just recently in human history wouldn't've been considered "children" at all.

That said, what Chad is really worried about -- and why I stopped arguing with him -- is that certain types of danger have become more prominent in recent years, even as many other dangers have dwindled away, and that he personally is more concerned with the dangers we've recently created than the ones that we, as a society, have defeated. It IS true that teenagers are much more likely to be shot in school by another teen than they used to be, for example; that this still happens very rarely does not change the fact that it happens less rarely than it used to.

To my way of thinking, this is far less important than the fact that, in almost all ways, the life of a child today is better, safer, stabler, and more secure than it was even fifty years ago. Chad disagrees, and I certainly don't have the right to convince him that his priorities are wrong; they're his kids, after all, and if he wants to fear sending them to school, he can.

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Sara Sasse
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Why, Chris, what a lovely sonnet.

*impressed

From US Govt. Bureau of Justice Statistics,

quote:
- Violent crime rates have declined since 1994, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2003.
- Homicide rates recently declined to levels last seen in the late 1960s.

- Rape rates declined after 1991.
- Robbery rates declined from 1994 through 2002 and then stabilized.
- Assault rates declined since 1994.
- The proportion of serious violent crimes committed by juveniles has generally declined since 1993.
...
- [Note that] Teens experience the highest rates of violent crime.
- [But] The Uniform Crime Reports overall homicide rate remained stable in recent years. The homicide rate is highest for older teens and young adults.
- [And] Serious violent crime rates declined in recent years for both blacks and whites.

[all italicization added by me]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding abductions, there is a PDF version online of the April 2001 FBI Bulletin on Law Enforcement which includes a summary article on Investigating Potential Childhood Abduction Cases. The introduction summarizes the literature from the 90s on child abduction, although unfortunately many of these journal articles are not available online if written before 1998. However, the bibliography gives you an idea of where to start. The following are relevant excerpts:

quote:
The value people place on children makes missing child incidents among the most widely publicized cases encountered by law enforcement.

The reported abduction or mysterious disappearance of a child captivates families, neighborhoods, communities, and entire nations.

In the 1980s, several highly publicized stranger-perpetrated child abduction cases heightened public and parental concerns and fears and led to the widespread belief that stranger abductions had become increasingly common.

This awareness caused parental groups, civic organizations, political representatives, and government agencies to support programs focusing on missing children.

PREVIOUS RESEARCH

While public fears and perceptions focused on stereotypical stranger abduction, in which an older adult male from outside the community preyed randomly upon an unsuspecting child for sexual gratification, initial research findings painted a different picture. Studies found that abductions by family members represented the most prevalent child abduction type, ranging from 163,200 to 354,100 cases annually.[footnote 1] In contrast, the national incidence of child abductions perpetrated by nonfamily members ranged from 3,200 to 4,600 cases annually, with only 62 percent of these cases committed by strangers. [footnote 2] Additionally, long-term stranger abductions, where serious risk of victim mortality existed, only accounted for between 200 to 300 cases annually. These statistics included children ranging in age from birth to 18 years and, therefore, displayed diverse victim characteristics and vulnerabilities.

Stranger abductions, although a serious and potentially lethal problem, did not appear as widespread as experts believed originally. More recent child abduction and child homicide research generally supports these findings. ...

[Footnotes]
1 D. Finkelhor, G. Hotaling, and A. Sedlak, “Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and ” Thrownaway Children in America,” United States Department of Justice (Washington, DC: 1990).
2 Ibid.
etc
[all italicization added by me]

And from a (very recent) article in the Oct 4, 2004 edition of Pediatrics, The Pediatrician's Role in the Prevention of Missing Children:
quote:
Missing children are of considerable concern to parents, children, and the nation. In one study, nearly 75% of parents acknowledged worrying about their children being kidnapped, and 35% said they were very concerned. [footneote 1] The issue of missing children is complex and needs to be dealt with in the appropriate context. When considering how to counsel parents about this issue, it is important
for pediatricians to have a good understanding of the problem.
...
There are several categories of missing children. Most children reported missing are runaways and children taken by noncustodial parents, both of which are preventable events. A small but indeterminate number of children are abducted by nonfamily members. Most of these nonfamily abductions occur as a result of direct contact between the perpetrator and the child.
...
Although much less common, classic nonfamily kidnappings pose the greatest risk of death or serious harm. According to law-enforcement statistics, a few more than 100 children were kidnapped in this sense in 1999. [footnote 4] Although these numbers are small, the effects on the child, family, and community are enormous.

All nonfamily abductions are part of a continuum. On one end are relatively brief episodes in which there is no physical harm to the victim. At the other extreme are the horrific cases of classic kidnappings that often grab the nation’s attention.
...
We all can remember our parents and teachers giving admonitions such as “don’t take candy from strangers,” hoping to keep us safe. Unfortunately, we now know that most people who perpetrate these crimes on children are not strangers in the eye and mind of the child. A neighbor, a familiar face in a child’s daily routine, or someone the child’s parents know well enough to speak to or whose name the child knows is probably not viewed as a stranger by the child.
...
The pediatrician’s advice for preventing missing children, as for many other health issues, needs to be a balance of safeguarding children while avoiding generating fear. None of this information needs to be taught specifically as abduction safeguarding, with all its overtones of danger and threat. Instead, it should be taught as developmental achievements to be praised for their own value in the growing child. The appropriate message allows the child to go forward with skill and confidence rather than fear and avoidance.

Pediatricians can help safeguard children older than 5 years by encouraging parents to teach them to memorize their name, address, and phone number, including area code, so that they can be identified readily if separated from their families. Older children can learn numbers for contacting parents at home or at work. Because abductions are rarely conducted by strangers, even in nonfamily abductions, teaching children not to talk to strangers frightens them without any proven benefit. Passive methods of identifying children such as the placement of microchips in the teeth and fingerprinting are primarily techniques for identification of bodies. Their use has become common for fund raising and as a “service to the community” often without considering the potential effect in frightening children and inappropriately raising fears in adults without any perspective provided on the real nature or rareness of abduction.
[footnotes 23,24] On the other hand, keeping recent photographs of children and promptly reporting incidences to the police are extremely helpful measures.
...
[Footnotes]

1. Stickler GB, Salter M, Broughton DD, Alario A. Parents’ worries about children compared to actual risks. Clin Pediatr (Phila). 1991;30:522–528

2. Federal Bureau of Investigation. Total NCIC Missing Person Entries by State by Year. Clarksburg, WV: Criminal Justice Information Services Division, Federal Bureau of Investigation; 2002

3. National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. June 2003 Review of National Crime Information Center Missing-Person Entries by Age in 2001 and 2002 in the Juvenile, Endangered, and Involuntary Categories. Alexandria, VA: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children; 2003

4. US Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. Second National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children (NISMART-2). Washington, DC: US Department of Justice; 2002

5. Sedlack AJ, Finkelhor D, Hammer H, Schultz DJ. National Estimates of Missing Children: An Overview. Washington, DC: US Department of Justice; 2002:4–10

6. Finkelhor D, Hammer H, Sedlak AJ. Nonfamily Abducted Children: National Estimates and Characteristics. Washington, DC: US Department of
Justice; 2002:7, 10
...
23. Bergman AB. The business of missing children. Pediatrics. 1986;77: 119–121

24. Livingston G. Fear of abduction: it’s a business now. San Francisco Examiner. October 12, 1999:A-19
etc
[all italicizations added by me]

That is, although the widespread publicity in the 80s about child abductions understandably made it appear that such abductions were on the rise, this misrepresented the actual trends in incidence. Children continue to be abducted primarily by family members, secondarily by those known to the family and child, and a distant third remains the stranger abduction, the rate of which has been stable.

[ October 26, 2004, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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Sara Sasse
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So, in summary, the decrease in violent crime rates, viewed with the lack of increased stranger abductions and the decrease in infectious disease sequelae and the decrease in preventable injuries secondary to awareness and prevention drives, has all indeed made for a safer world for children, at least in the US.

Remember too that of course injury and assault will be high on the list of "causes of death" for children -- they are unlikely to die of anything else. However, that list of "causes of death" on its own does not give you any indication of the actual numbers of deaths, which are quite low.

But if children die, they are unlikely to die of things like heart attacks, so "unnatural causes of death" will necessarily be at the top of the list, no matter how small they may actually be in effect.

[ October 26, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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Dan_raven
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Back to the original discussion, with my sasha, just learning English, I am constantly amazed at what he knows, and what he doesn't.

Last Saturday he asked what a "place" is, as in "we are going some place else, not this place."

Try defining that in a language a four year old can master.

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Dagonee
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If people are interested in ways to keep their children safer from violent crime, I reccomend "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker very highly.

The premise is that fear, in its proper place as an immediate warning mechanism, is highly valueable, and far less useful when people are "afraid" of possibilities rather than real situations.

There's an excellent chapter on questions to ask schools about safety policies and about parents trusting their intuition on matters of child safety. This allows parents to keep their children safer without smothering them through misplaced use of fear.

Dagonee

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Sara Sasse
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Dan, you have my sympathies. [Smile]

BTW, I was speaking with my David about your day yesterday, and he said it sounds like a Fellini film. I am compelled to agree, especially given the funeral clown.

How does Sasha like your clown outfit?

quote:
That said, what Chad is really worried about -- and why I stopped arguing with him -- is that certain types of danger have become more prominent in recent years, even as many other dangers have dwindled away, and that he personally is more concerned with the dangers we've recently created than the ones that we, as a society, have defeated. It IS true that teenagers are much more likely to be shot in school by another teen than they used to be, for example; that this still happens very rarely does not change the fact that it happens less rarely than it used to.

To my way of thinking, this is far less important than the fact that, in almost all ways, the life of a child today is better, safer, stabler, and more secure than it was even fifty years ago. Chad disagrees, and I certainly don't have the right to convince him that his priorities are wrong; they're his kids, after all, and if he wants to fear sending them to school, he can.

I'd completely agree with Tom. On the other hand, I think we can all make the best choices (whatever they may be) when we have accurate information on which to base them.

That isn't to say that we must have "accurate values," whatever int he world that would mean. Rather, that our values are most coherently and usefully put into play when they are supported with accurate information.

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