posted
Growing up, everything I knew about pet food I learned from commercials. We fed our cat Friskies and Whiskers dry food, because it was reasonably priced and he seemed to like it. When we got our new puppy a month and a half ago, I asked the people I work with what I should get. I work at the "#1" vet school in the country, after all. I was told I should give Libbey Iams or Eukanuba, so we started looking for a good price.
As I was searching, I started reading up on pet food and pet nutrition. Wow, what an eye-opener. Not only are Iams and Eukanuba way overpriced for what they are (mostly nutritionless filler that dogs can't digest), they also include preservatives that are known to cause cancer in dogs. Greeeeat.
However, they are better than a lot of the pet foods out there, like Alpo, Buckeye, Eagle Pack, Farm Pride, Joy, Command, Muenster, Ol' Roy, Purebred, Sport Mix, Tuffy's, Wayne, Pedigree, Kibble's n Bits, and most Purina brands. These contain "meat and bone meal" or "meat by-products", rather than "named" meats like chicken or beef.
So what exactly is nameless "meat" when it comes to pet food?
quote: At the rendering plant, slaughterhouse material, restaurant and supermarket refuse, dead stock, road kill, and euthanized companion animals are dumped into huge containers. A machine slowly grinds the entire mess. After it is chipped or shredded, it is cooked at temperatures of between 220 degrees F. and 270 degrees F. (104.4 to 132.2 degrees C.) for twenty minutes to one hour. The grease or tallow rises to the top, where it is removed from the mixture. This is the source of animal fat in most pet foods. The remaining material, the raw, is then put into a press where the moisture is squeezed out. We now have meat and bone meal.
The Association of American Feed Control Officials in its "Ingredient Definitions," describe meat meal as the rendered product from mammal tissue exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, hide, trimmings, manure, stomach, and rumen (the first stomach or the cud of a cud chewing animal) contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. In an article written by David C. Cooke, "Animal Disposal: Fact and Fiction," Cooke noted, "Can you imagine trying to remove the hair and stomach contents from 600,000 tons of dog and cats prior to cooking them?" It would seem that either the Association of American Feed Control Officials definition of meat meal or meat and bone meal should be redefined or it needs to include a better description of "good factory practices."
When 4-D animals are picked up and sent to these rendering facilities, you can be assured that the stomach contents are not removed. The blood is not drained nor are the horns and hooves removed. The only portion of the animal that might be removed is the hide and any meat that may be salvageable and not too diseased to be sold as raw pet food or livestock feed. The Minister of Agriculture in Quebec made it clear that companion animals are rendered completely.
Pet Food Industry magazine states that a pet food manufacturer might reject rendered material for various reasons, including the presence of foreign material (metals, hair, plastic, rubber, glass), off odor, excessive feathers, hair or hog bristles, bone chunks, mold, chemical analysis out of specification, added blood, leather, or calcium carbonate, heavy metals, pesticide contamination, improper grind or bulk density, and insect infestation.
Please note that this article states that the manufacturer might reject this material, not that it does reject this material.
quote:Rendering has long been considered one of the most environmentally friendly ways to dispose of animal carcasses, because it recycles them into useful fat and protein. By far the bulk of rendered material comes from slaughterhouses. But some plants also mix in road kill, the trimmings from supermarket delis, dead farm animals and euthanized pets from shelters. Los Angeles city and county shelters send more than 120,000 dead dogs and cats to be rendered in a typical year.
quote:The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said.
So if giving my dog Iams every day is the equivalent of eating nothing but french fries and corn dogs, feeding her "Ol' Roy" would be the equivalent of feeding her nothing but gristle and Soylent Green.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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My puppy had organic, wheat free, lamb and rice puppy chow. I'm big on the organics.
I always heard it was old racehorses that went into the dog food. And inedible cow bits like hooves. I had no idea it was so much crap. Yuck!
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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We feed our cats Wellness now, on the advice of a friend who's a pet-nutrition expert. I read the ingredients and they're nearly all "named meats" so I feel okay about it. But we've fed them Iams, Nutro, and (briefly) Eagle Pack in the past, and after reading what you posted I'm horrified. Soylent Green indeed Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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So, tell me why it's so bad to feed a dog meat scraps from the table, because I've always been told not to, and never told why. Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Just to clarify, Iams and Nutro don't have "meat" or "meat by-products" in them, as far as I know, so they're probably free of companion animals. It doesn't mean they're necessarily good foods for your pets, though, especially when you can get a filler-free, human-grade-meat food for pennies more. We pay $3 more every month and a half for Canidae than we would for Iams or Eukanuba, and since she needs less of it to be full, we're probably saving money in the end.
The problem is that most people, including vets, only know what the big pet food companies tell them. If the packaging says it's nutritious, and the dog eats it, who's going to know if it's cancerous, nutritionless, or cannibalistic?
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I think it's bad to feed dogs from the table because of the training and behavior aspect, not the food. If they learn that begging and pestering will be rewarded with food and attention, they'll keep doing them and getting worse.
The cats and I have a deal for when I'm eating something they like, such as yogurt: if they behave themselves, keep a respectful distance, and don't pester me while I'm eating, then they get to lick the bowl after I'm done. But if they pester, they get nothing. It's worked pretty well, I get to eat in peace and they get a little treat afterwards.
Edit: I may have misunderstood your question, sarcasticmuppet; I thought you meant actually handing the dogs table scraps while you're eating. If you meant just scraping the plates into the dog dish after dinner, I guess the only issue I can think of would be bones--cooked bones will splinter into deadly shards when the dog chews them.
posted
My friend who's a vet and shows Shelties cooks for her dogs. She feeds them lots of rice, eggs, other meats and vegetables. It takes some extra effort but at least she knows what they're eating and she can control their salt, sugar and fat intake.
quote: So, tell me why it's so bad to feed a dog meat scraps from the table, because I've always been told not to, and never told why.
I'd think a big reason not to feed them scraps is that encourages begging which can be a really annoying habit. As to nutritional reasons not to feed them, the seasonings or preparation of the meat may be harmful for them. Because dogs and cats are so much smaller than humans, they're much more sensitive to salt and other seasonings. Also, most people don't know that onions can be as leathal as chocolate for pets.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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sarcastic, I think it really depends on the scrap. If it's a small, plain piece of turkey, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it's mixed in with a lot of other ingredients, and the dog eats a lot of it, then it might get an upset tummy. Dogs and cats are notoriously sensitive about changes in diet, and don't react well to new foods. But it's not like giving them a bowl of stew is going to kill them, it'll probably just make them vomit.
A lot of dog nuts, actually, are feeding their dogs what's called a "BARF" diet (ha), "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food". http://www.barfworld.com/ Basically you buy a bunch of meat scraps and veggies and grind them up for the dog.
The main reason we don't feed our dog any table scraps is because we don't want her begging. Little scamp is so smart, she'd never let us forget it if we gave her even one treat off our plates. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
This isn't actually news. This info has been out there for a long time. Some of it alarmist but a lot of it true. Lead over on http://www.sunshineband.org/forums has a list of dog foods with their ingreedients.
posted
Science Diet is sort of a vet-sponsored scam, unfortunately. It's marketed as a very healthy, scientific, vet-approved food, but it's just as full of undigestible corn, soy, and rice fillers as Iams. And it's really expensive, given the ingredients.
Science Diet 20lb bag of Canine Maintenance Adult: $21.49
1. Corn (undigestible filler) 2. Poultry By-Product Meal (chicken skin, feathers, beaks, organs, and blood) 3. Soybean Meal (very undigestible filler) 4. Animal Fat (this is mentioned in one of the articles I quoted above) 5. Natural Flavors 6. BHA, PPG, Citric Acid (BHA is a known carcinogen in dogs)
Canidae 20lb bag of Human-Grade All Life Stages: $19.99
1. Chicken Meal 2. Turkey Meal 3. Brown Rice 4. White Rice 5. Lamb Meal 6. Chicken Fat
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Well, I did check the link you provided for the Chicken Soup brand. There's a retailer just a few towns over. I think I'll call later today and check out the pricing.
posted
I'll swear by Flint River Ranch food. It's all human-grade, and very affordable. It's not full of filler, either. I spend about $20 every 4-5 weeks to feed my two cats (we have it the food out for them at all times, and the little one especially is a pig!), and shipping is free. I really recommend them. My vet even asked me once what I feed them, because she was so impressed with Valentine's coat!
Posts: 3214 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I bet your dogs will loooove it. I hear the only potential problem with Chicken Soup is it being almost too rich for some dogs, so you'll definitely want to take your time in switching them over... but yeah, from everything I hear, it's pretty tasty.
We did get a friend of ours to try a piece of Libbey's Canidae... he said it tasted like burnt popcorn. Which probably explains why she likes it so much. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yeah, I've heard good things about Flint River, too, Vana! I like the look of those ingredients. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Turns out it's very affordable; an 18 lb. bag is $15.99. But they don't make a large breed formula - just puppy, adult, and senior. Our vet has recommended a large breed formula. Guess I'll have to call them too now and ask about that.
I know the people who run it, and they use only the best ingredients. It's all made in human-food-grade kitchens with ingredients suitable for human consumption.
posted
Ok, I guess large breed is no longer an issue. According to the vet I just spoke with, we should have switched Max to an adult formula at 6 months, precisely because he is a large breed.
posted
Hmm... you know, whenever I hear people talking about large breed foods, it's because they think it's a ripoff. Canidae, for example, only has two formulas... dog and senior. So puppies and adult dogs of all sizes eat the same food until they get really old. Maybe it makes a difference with feed-grade foods, but I think human-grade foods are good for the dog regardless of size.
Also, just to let you know... most veterinarians are not nutritionists (or behaviorists, but that's a whole different thread). Most of the time, the only education they get in pet foods is at conferences hosted by the companies that sell pet food. There's no "animal nutrition" course here, they can barely fit all of the other knowledge they need in to the four or five year program. In addition, a lot of vets get kickbacks for "prescribing" a certain brand of food, hence all of the Iams and Eukanuba stuff I see around here.
posted
They have the hardest time finding kitchens to make the food, because they insist on only using kitchens dedicated to human-consumable foods, but many of them don't want to be known for making pet food.
Yet the pet food is actually human-consumable itself. They started not telling the kitchens what it was for, just giving them the recipe, and no one complained.
posted
As crazy as I might be, I don't see much wrong with using rendered animals for feed, apart from the euthanization chemicals present in them. The level of processing reduces animal bodies into totally dissociated proteins. The proteins present in rendered dogs and cats aren't any different than the proteins in rendered pigs, which we have no problem eating ourselves.
Is it really so bad for animals to be "cannibalistic" in such a removed fashion? They're eating proteins that were once dogs, but the same thing happens daily in the food chain. Animals in the wild eat all kinds of meats. Chickens even eat each other.
I think I'm more concerned with the nutritional value of the food I'm giving my pets. Cats and dogs are carnivores - feeding them vegetarian diets is silly. As long as they're getting the proteins and nutrients they need and no carcignogenic chemicals, I don't really care where the protein came from. Heaven knows my cat doesn't.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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I'd be worried about BSE and the like. Anyone know if prions are destroyed in the rendering process?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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There's not much that will destroy prions. I'd bet there's a risk even after rendering, but I am not certain. [Er. what Dag said.]
Halo looks too cool, Dag.
I do pretty much agree with Annie. The specter of prion neuronal diseases does worry me, though. I think the risk is substantially decreased if what is fed to an animal is not from parts of the same species. Many diseases are species-limited.
[ January 05, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I guess I just felt a pang over that because they were companion animals...they were someone's beloved pet at some point, at least hopefully. It seems sad to me that that's what happened to their bodies (at my parents' house we buried them in the backyard, since my husband and I aren't homeowners yet we have them cremated; we have a little memorial shelf with the urns and framed pictures of the ones who've passed). Then again, most of the rendered animals were euthanized in shelters, so I guess they didn't have anyone who loved them anymore. Intellectually I know there's no reason why the bodies shouldn't be put to some use, and it probably isn't hurting the animals who eat the food, but it just makes me a little sad. Perhaps it's hypocritical but for whatever reason I don't feel the same about livestock that were raised from day one with the intent of being killed and eaten someday.
posted
You know, Annie, I don't disagree with you in principle. The problem with the euthanized companion animals isn't that we're feeding them to our pets, it's that we're allowing so many to be born that we have to kill huge numbers of them every day. The LA Times article highlights the problem of what to do with all these carcasses... what do you do with all the bodies when one city or county produces 120,000 euthanized pets a year? You can't put them in a landfill, or they might contaminate the drinking water, and pet crematoriums are prohibitively expensive... we might as well put to good use these pets that we've created and then killed. The real solution to removing companion animals from the pet food chain is to spay and neuter the living pets that we have, so that shelters aren't left with more bodies than they can otherwise dispose of.
HOWEVER, given that, there are real health concerns for your pet if you use the kind of food that includes euthanized companion animals. As one of the articles I posted explained, rendering plants toss the animals in whole, including body bags, fur, teeth, flea collars, and the "lethal dose" of sodium phenobarbital. Not to mention the other sources of "meat" and "meat by-products" that go into the mix, like packages of spoiled supermarket meat (with the styrofoam!), spoiled slaughterhouse droppings, and restaurant garbage. So it's not exactly the same as if one dog ate another dog in the wild, it's far more polluted and toxic than that.
posted
Heh...guess I'm just a big softie, I responded to Annie's post on a purely emotional level, rather than Zeugma's much more rational reason for disapproving Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Heh, I'm truly a big softie at heart, but I've been working on a video project explaining, in every gory detail, how to anesthetize and spay a cat for the last several months. Nothing grosses me out any more.
Though I did come close to fainting when I had to video closeups of a brain removal procedure. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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So why are corn, soybean, and rice 'fillers' undigestiable (Besides the cellulose, which we can't digest either).
from the first post
quote: The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said.
Until the levels are shown to be meaningful, this is as they said in the quote, meaningless. Have you checked the air quality near a busy road lately?
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I feed my Basenji a kind of modified BARF diet. I use Sojourner Farms base when I don't have a lot of time, and add all sorts of yummy raw stuff for the little carnivore. Organs and bones and all. She seems to do okay. She also likes pizza and Doritos.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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I feed all my dogs Pro Plan, made by Purina. Pointers are notorious for having skin problems, and since they are show dogs I have had to try a lot of different foods to keep their coats looking healthy. I've tried organic, human grade, everything...and nothing has come close to keeping them as healthy as Pro Plan. It's not cheap, but they seem to love the taste and also have beautiful shiny coats. It also uses primarily wheat and rice flours instead of corn, which can be harmful to a dog's digestive system.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I just ordered a $5.00 dog food/treats sampler from the Flint River place. Free Shipping!!!
I have to say, they have the nicest website for ordering stuff I've ever seen.
Prices weren't too high if you're already spending the bucks to buy premium brands like Iams, Eukanuba or Science Diet.
I went to that stuff because the vet told me first dog (who was 17 when she finally got too old) had kidney failure due in part to the ash in the food I'd fed her as a puppy. I really thought that the premium stuff had to be the best for my new dog right from the start.
posted
Bob, I'm glad to hear that. I started out getting a sample, too, of the cat food, and Valentine loved it. And you're right, the website is very good. In fact, when I went to check on the price (I couldn't remember, but wanted to mention it), they noticed that I'd been there but not successfully placed an order, and sent me an e-mail to be sure that was correct. They're awesome. Posts: 3214 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Actually, after seeing my cat prefer beans and broccoli and devour my plants when I don't have some form of cat grass or veggie to give him, I disagree that cats and dogs are carnivores. That said, I have been trying to find foods with the first ingredients being poultry and/or fish rather than corn or rice (the beef ones are almost never really meat). I tried to feed my cat chicken and meat scraps (I'm a notoriously picky meat eater) and cottage cheese and egg for a while, but it was a bit too demanding. We use Iams currently, but you even have to be careful which type of Iams you buy.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yeah, I know they are more omnivorous than people realize, but Curie does love the meat! She will also eat asparagus, oatmeal, tacos (carefully avoiding the lettuce), sticks, paper, crayons, and cheerios. The BARF and Sojos type plans do use quite a lot of veggies. I try to keep her away from table scraps, but not because of the begging (Basenjis are world-class beggars). She just gets, um, gassy if she has too many table scraps.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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Here, we can get Whiskas and another brand that I can't remember at the moment. Only 2 choices. The vet advised that I feed Oberon, yon fat cat, fish on a regular basis because it will boost his immunse system. Hmm. Okay.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Wow, y'all, I just can't tell you how happy it makes me to think of all these great Hatrack pets switching to nutritious, healthy human grade kibble.
I wish all pet owners had access to good, honest information about pet food ingredients and nutrition, rather than having to rely on advice from vets who believe whatever Nestle-Purina tells them. Heck, I know I was totally baffled when I looked at food ingredients pre-Libbey. Corn? Corn is good, right? Dogs like corn? What's the difference between "Chicken by-product", "Meat by-product", and "Chicken meal"??? It's so confusing.
For those of you switching from a filler-based food to a human-grade food, you might be in for some pleasant surprises... in addition to a smoother coat and generally healthier appearance, many dogs produce smaller stools on super-premium dog food, as they're able to digest more of it. And I know from experience that Libbey went from absolutely unholy gas problems to stink-free in the week it took us to gradually switch her from Science Diet to Canidae.
Cheaper, healthier, less stinky... one of life's few win-wins.
Unless you're a megacorp, I guess. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Smokey's Flint River sample pack arrived yesterday. I don't know how she knew the package was for her, but she accosted the UPS guy and danced around me while I brought the box to the table.
She's only had the fish & chips kibble so far -- used as treats, she LOVES it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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