posted
Now, when Denethor speaks to Faramir after his return from Osgiliath after meeting Frodo, Sam, and Smeagol in Ithilien, he say's that the ring should have been kept in the vaults, the deepest pits of Gondor.
But he also says that it could be used at the time of uttermost need, now obviously this would mean the fall of Minas Tirith unto the forces of Sauron the Deciever, but herein my query lies. In Denethors ideal, Boromir still lives, so when the ring is used, does Boromir as the strongest warrior in Gondor (in Denethor's mind) weild the ring, or does Denethor as the wisest and most powerful (again in Denethor's mind) weild this power?
My apologies for any spelling errors.
Hermocrates
[ January 07, 2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Hermocrates of Syracuse ]
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posted
It's irrelevant. The way the ring works, even if Denethor intended Boromir to have it, he'd change his mind once that decision was at hand. The very nature of the ring makes it almost impossible to entrust to another person.
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posted
Not so Thomas, because we know from Fellowship that Boromir was extremely prone to the calls of the ring, and the ring want's above all to be returned to Sauron, so would not the ring then exert upon Denethor to be given to Boromir and hence carried into the very ranks of Mordor at which point it could betray him and be returned?
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posted
Frankly, I think the ring would be overjoyed to have the opportunity to wind up on Denethor's hand. Keep in mind that, by this point, Denethor had been talking with Sauron for some time.
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quote: The very nature of the ring makes it almost impossible to entrust to another person.
Unless you're Frodo. Then you wander around Middle Earth trying to get your friends to take the ring.
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posted
Untill a certain CGI shaved monkey bites your middle finger off and leaves your flipping Peter Jackson off with half a bloody finger, but only after every single main character falls off a cliff or precipice at least twice.
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posted
I thought Fellowship was a masterpiece, TT defeitely had it's moments, but the entire second half of ROTK left me wanting... Mostly because of the green jello that ate the Oliphaunts.
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posted
Denethor never intended for Boromir to have the ring. In my opinion, Denethor does not truly love his sons. He is a prideful and narcissistic man. Denethor loves Boromir because his first born's willfulness reminds Denethor of himself.
quote:Denethor lauged bitterly. "Nay not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and thing, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."
Denethor believes great lords never put themselves in peril when they can get others to do their bidding. So Denethor's definition of a "time of uttermost need" probably describes a scenario where most of his captains, including Boromir and Faramir, are dead.
I also think ROTK was the worst movie out of the entire trilogy. ROTK would have worked better as two movies. This way, important story threads such as the true nature of Denethor's madness, Faramir's love affair with Eowyn, the scouring of the Shire, and Aragorn's liberation of the southern fiefdoms could be fleshed out.
Just because the book was a trilogy doesn't mean the movie had to divided up the same way. According to the DVD commentaries, Tolkien intended LOTR to be one long book. It was only broken down for commercial reasons.
posted
The green haze bothered me a bit too, especially when it goes into Minas Tirith. But I still liked the movie generally more than the book. The books were always too laden down and wordy to me even though I do enjoy them and realize they are a masterpiece that created a new genre.
posted
It's all pointless to discuss, because as Gandalf says (in the book, it was Faramir who said it in the movie) Boromir would never have brought Denethor the ring. If he did, he would not have been recognizable as Boromir and certainly wouldn't have submitted to his father's authority.
He would have returned to Minas Tirith not to protect it, but to seize its control from his father and try to set himself up as a king.
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posted
While The Lord of the Rings was written as one complete novel then broken into a trilogy, it was also written as six books. And should have been filmed as six movies.
Denethor had already wrestled with Sauron for control of the palantir, and lost the mental battle*. So all that Denethor saw through the palantir were what Sauron wanted him to see: signs of weakness leading to the Fall of Man and Sauron's Triumph. From that loss of the mental battle came Denethor's suspicion of his allies (including Faramir, Mithrandir, Aragon, etc), his severe depression, and his suicidal tendency (assuming Faramir was effectively dead rather than treating his wounds) which led to the attempt to immolate both himself and his son.
Having already lost the mental battle with Sauron, receiving the Ring would have only hastened Denethor's fall, though perhaps Sauron would have kept him around as a useful tool similar to the RingWraiths (who once were kings of men corrupted by the dominance of the OneRing over their own Rings of Power).
* Saruman was similarly corrupted through his own palantir.
posted
Plus, Aragorn's successful battle for control of the Orthanc Palantir was critical to the success of the whole operation. That should never have been left out of the movie.
posted
Denethor was once a great man, and was still a great man at the time of the story. He was much more like unto Aragorn and the men of Westernesse than Boromir was. Faramir was also very like the Numenoreans, like Denethor was in his youth.
In Denethor's youth, he and Aragorn fought together side by side in the wars of Gondor. (They were about the same age, in fact (early 80s at the time of the story (Numenoreans had thrice the lifespan of lesser men)) but Denethor was old before his time worn out in contention with the enemy.) Aragorn was incognito back then, going by the name of Thorongil. Aragorn was beloved of the people of Gondor, and of the then steward, Denethor's father Ecthelion. Denethor and Aragorn were rivals, in a way, for the affection of the people and of Ecthelion. It is said that Thorongil left Gondor at the height of his triumph so as to avoid any contention between them or rivalry for the leadership of the realm.
Denethor was wise and farsighted, and it's pretty sure that he figured out who this Thorongil was, and was rather dubious of his right to the kingship. Thus he was ever suspicious of Gandalf and Elrond, whom he saw as plotting between them to supplant him.
The fact that Sauron couldn't dominate Denethor directly, as he did Saruman, shows how strong willed and true hearted Denethor was. Also, because he was the rightful steward, he had some real claim to being a valid user of the palantir, which Saruman did not. Denethor wasn't a usurper, in other words, though his ancestors in the line of stewards had all had wisdom and strength to resist using the stone. Perhaps Denethor's need was greater, who can say?
But, as was said, Sauron was able to indirectly overthrow the will and mind of Denethor by allowing the stone to show only images that would feed his growing despair. Even the Corsairs of Umbar which he saw coming up the river during the Battle of Pelennor, Sauron caused him to believe held enemies of Gondor, rather than friends, as they actually did (Aragorn and the Grey Company of rangers from the north plus Legolas & Gimli and the two sons of Elrond).
The dead had fought at Umbar only, and helped them win the ships plus oarsmen slaves (which they freed and signed up to the cause). After they won that battle in the harbors, Aragorn released the dead from their oath and they were at last able to go to their rest. Then he and the others rowed the ships upstream (helped by that wind of change that blew in with the rising sun) to join in the battle around Minas Tirith fighting in the enemy's rear and flank.
Okay, probably way more information than anyone wanted. <laughs> Just I feel sad that Denethor was so maligned in the movies. He was a great man and a valiant foe of the enemy, who met a tragic end, overthrown at last by pride and despair. I find his story particularly touching.
posted
Also, it is for sure that he would have had good table manners. He was the ruler of a great, though waning, civilization. Faramir and his men in hiding in Henneth Annun seemed to keep a rather formal and proper table, even. For sure his father would have done so. The juice running down his chin in the movie I view as being pure slander.
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posted
Don't forget the Corsair ships also had armies of Ethir and Lebinin, who flocked to the ships when Aragorn and the army of the dead sent the Corsairs packing, they felt they no longer needed to hold back for their own defense anymore. No matter how you look at it I still didn't like Denethor, in the book or the movie.
He always considered his own stewardship of Gondor more important than the good of Gondor.
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posted
Oh, Lyrhawn, you are right! I had forgotten that.
I just think it's a shame that the movies made Denethor into a caricature bad guy, when he was such a complex and interesting character, mostly good, one of the greatest powers on our side, but lost in the end to despair. The scene when Faramir said something like, "If I return, I hope you will think better of me" and Denethor answered, "that depends upon the manner of your return," was straight out of the book and probably my favorite scene in all 3 movies. It's so much like so many fathers and sons in real life. It broke my heart, I just wept. But the power of that situation is lessened so much by the caricaturization that the movies perpetrated on the father. Only those who know the real story can feel it fully, you know?
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quote:"If I return, I hope you will think better of me" and Denethor answered, "that depends upon the manner of your return,"
That's probably my second favorite scene! I love that scene. It's heart wrenching for so many reasons, but one of them is the fact that it's against the spirit of Denethor's character. You're right in saying that you have to understand the characters to really get why they messed them up in the movies.
Denethor was never my favorite in the book, but I did respect the role he played, and the titan (in some ways) he was in the defense of Good in middle earth.
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posted
It has to be when Theoden is just arriving at the Pelennor Fields and he gives his speech to the Rohirrim.
"Arise, arise riders of Theoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered, a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises!"
"Ride now, ride now! Ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending! Death! Death! Death! Forth Eorlingas!"
The entire arrival of Theoden and the Rohirrim at the battle and what happens next is my favorite scene from all the books too. I LOVE Rohan. I get goosebumps all over and I want to run out and fight with Theoden and scream DEATH! along with him, despite the fact that I deplore war. It's just so compelling. Has nothing to do with the fancy CGI, it's all about Theoden.
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quote:He was much more like unto Aragorn and the men of Westernesse than Boromir was. Faramir was also very like the Numenoreans, like Denethor was in his youth.
Denethor is similar to the Numenorean kings who listened to the counsels of Sauron. He is probably comparable to Aragorn in terms of leadership abilities, intelligence, and prowess in battle. But in terms of the most important qualities, wisdom and nobility, he fails tragically short.
Denethor was less noble than Aragorn, Faramir, the Prince of Dol Amorth, or even Beregond. Even before he looked into the Palantir Denethor was jealous of Aragorn's possible claim to the throne.
quote:And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails.
I've always wondered, when Sauron showed Denethor the Corsairs of Umbar, did Sauron know it was Aragorn in those ships? The answer is probably no. If Sauron knew the ships carried the heir of Elendil, he would've sent the ringwraiths against the ships.
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Well, I always thought he knew. After all, Aragorn revealed himself to him in the stone before he went on the paths of the dead. But I guess there's no way to know for sure.
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Wow, I'm so glad we finally have a new Tolkien thread! It's been way too long! I may have to start hanging out over on the forums at the one ring. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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My personal favorite scene from the LOTR series would have to be the fall of Boromir, my personal favorite character in both the film and the book.
"They took the little ones..... I have failed you all, all will come to ruin, thw white city will fall, and the world of men will end"
"Not so, you fought bravely, you have kept your honor........ I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you, I will not let the white city fall, or our people fail"
"Our people...."
"Our people...."
"I would have followed, my brother, my captain, my king"
I love the fallen hero who saves himself. In this scene, and the previous battle especially in the books we see how good of a person Boromir really is, he is brave, selfless, honorable, and a peerless warrior, but his selflessness to save his people also blinds him to the evil of the ring, he sees it as the only way to save his people, hence it corrupts him, but after he has ressurected himself, he see's the path to his people's saving lies in Aragorn, I have, and alwasy will love Boromir
Hermocrates
[ January 08, 2005, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Hermocrates of Syracuse ]
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posted
I'm relatively new, I registered back in November but never posted until a few days ago. And thank you for being the first person to welcome me!
I don't think when Sauron looked into his palantir and showed the black ships to Aragorn that at that time they were in fact commanded by Aragorn. Remember Umbar is way way to the south, and its a long way up the Anduin to get from Umbar to Minas Tirith, and they would have needed to deal with the people of Ethir and Lebinin, not to mention Dol Amroth (Prince Imrahil rules!) in order to get past there to Minas Tirith. So I think by the time Aragorn learns of its existance, it's the present and it's the pirate. Palantirs don't show the future like Galadriel's mirror, they were creating as means of sharing real time present information, like a really good networking system.
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quote:Well, I always thought he knew. After all, Aragorn revealed himself to him in the stone before he went on the paths of the dead. But I guess there's no way to know for sure.
Hmmm... that's a good point. Aragorn did say that he was able to take control of the Palantir. But that does not mean Sauron could not also see what Aragorn was looking at.
quote:My personal favorite scene from the LOTR series would have to be the fall of Boromir, my personal favorite character in both the film and the book.
Me too. My favorite visual from the movie is when Boromir, filled with orc arrows, knelt down in front of the old Gondorian statute.
quote:I don't think when Sauron looked into his palantir and showed the black ships to Aragorn that at that time they were in fact commanded by Aragorn.
But what about when Sauron showed the black ships to Denethor?
quote:Prince Imrahil rules!
He sure does. Too bad he didn't make it into the movies. Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Actually, I think Denethor looked in the stone right before he went to burn himself on the pyre. That's my recollection, anyway. He said the wind of your hope cheats you, wafting ships ... etc. By the time the ships were sailing upstream towards Minas Tirith, they were definitely in the control of the good guys. It seems like they rowed at first, then the wind changed and allowed them to sail.
So assuming Sauron was seeing what Denethor saw, but coloring his interpretation of things to feed his despair, then Sauron would have known who was in command of the ships. Perhaps he felt that overthrowing the mind of Denethor would be sufficient to capture the city, and that Aragorn and his guys would arrive too late. The Witch King was there at the battle. They were about to break down the great gates. I think Sauron just didn't think his overwhelming superiority in numbers and the horror of his weapons could be defeated by the remnants and ragtag that banded together against him. Light can see to the very heart of darkness, but the darkness knows nothing of the light. I think Sauron was just overconfident.
posted
Nah. Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb.
That's a good point about the nature of evil Tatiana. It is quite poetic that Sauron was defeated because his evil mind could not conceive that anyone would forsake the power of his ring. Of course, Manwe did release Melkor because Manwe could not perceive the true nature of evil. But that's another story.
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quote:Manwe did release Melkor because Manwe could not perceive the true nature of evil. But that's another story.
lol, yeah that's another story entirely. Sorry, I just love that I can recognize Silmarillion stuff.
What if Sauron didn't know about the owner of the Black Ships? He only has one eye, and it can only watch so many things at once. By that time, he knew of the Hobbit spies in Mordor, he had to watch the battles going on in Minas Tirith, Lorien, Mirkwood, and Dale/Iron Hills. By the time the ships were at Pelargir, they were close to Minas Tirith, perhaps he just missed that fact, being so secure in his confidence of victory....well wait, that makes less sense now. Sauron MUST not have known about Aragorn being in the black ships.
Why would he have kept his army there if an enemy army was sailing to fight him, if Rohan had just arrived on the field with a huge cavalry force, and the forces of Gondor (Go Imrahil!) were still fighting you to a standstill on the Fields of Pelennor? He'd be a fool to let his army be caught between the hammer and the anvil like that. He couldn't have known.
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posted
See, I just can't have much sympathy for Denethor, because of what is straight out of the books. As a mother, I find his treatment of Faramir reprehensible, anyone who said the things he said to his son is going to have a hard time winning my sympathy.
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quote: What if Sauron didn't know about the owner of the Black Ships? He only has one eye, and it can only watch so many things at once. By that time, he knew of the Hobbit spies in Mordor, he had to watch the battles going on in Minas Tirith, Lorien, Mirkwood, and Dale/Iron Hills. By the time the ships were at Pelargir, they were close to Minas Tirith, perhaps he just missed that fact, being so secure in his confidence of victory....well wait, that makes less sense now. Sauron MUST not have known about Aragorn being in the black ships.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that the eye of Sauron is an all seeing eye, it multitasks.
And I agree Imrahil was one of my favorite characters, I love the image of The Rangers, Eomer, Aragorn, and the Prince of Dol Amroth standng together on a forsaken hilltop surrounded by orcs, cut off, a wall of kings, men of the lines of Numenor and Eorl, unconquerable warriors. And also the charge of the Swan Knights justs evokes such a wonderful imager in my head of these pure, white knights, charging into a sea of evil incarnate. It's like Galahad leading The Knights of the Round Table in a last charge against the saxon horde. And the worst part is that Peter Jackson in the coronation scene, has like ten flags with a white Swan on a blue field in the background just taunting me, I was sooo *blurb*
posted
Argh now I have to rewatch that movie! I don't remember the swan flags at the coronation, I gave up looking for them at the last battle, after endless rewinding and peering at the battle flags.
One of the best images in my mind of the books is the mustering of Gondor, with all the men coming from all over the south to Minas Tirith. And especially the two thousand armored knights on horseback of Dol Amroth, proud and tall as the race of Numenor, the last men on Middle Earth of that blood line, with the blood of Elves flowing through them. Imrahil (IMRAHIL ROCKS!) and his knights should have been in the movie, I was cheated out of one of my favorite characters and scenes. And yes, the charge of the Dol Amroth knights out of Minas Tirith and the fight at the Last Battle are powerful images. Maybe they can make an extended extended edition for the hardcore fans.
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posted
Their not in the extended edition, to my great displeasure, though Eomer fingind Eowyn's body is, and thats a really great scene.
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posted
I was holding out hope they would be. But the swan flags are still there right?
The finding of Eowyn by Eomer was powerful. Much as I thought it would be, and I'm very happy they added it, even though it did sadden me so. Eomer is another of my favorite characters. Imrahil, Eomer and Theoden probably being my favorite three, especially Theoden.
I tend to like the peripheral characters in movies in books, I don't know why, but I'm always drawn to them. In the Hobbit my favorites were Bard, Beorn and Gwaihir, all three of which were barely in the book. Maybe I'm just weird, but main characters never do it for me.
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posted
"I think it's pretty safe to assume that the eye of Sauron is an all seeing eye."
Nope. In fact, the books specifically make clear that it's not. That's why they attacked the Black Gate in the first place.
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posted
If Denethor saw the ships with black sails being wafted up the river Anduin, then he saw them at a time when Aragorn had control. However, Sauron was exercising control through his own palantir to make sure Denethor didn't realize the ships held friends. Sauron was able to influence how Denethor interpreted what he saw, even though Denethor was too powerful for him to daunt directly, or prevent from seeing what he would. Doesn't it follow from all that that Sauron knew Aragorn was in control of the ships? He had unfettered use of his own stone. His attention, which wasn't unlimited, nevertheless was required to be on the ships for the purpose of tricking Denethor. I think it's a pretty sure bet that Sauron had to know what was actually going on. Otherwise how would he have been able to trick Denethor into not seeing the truth?
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