posted
But in the end tricking Denethor was a moot point anyway. Denethor knew about the ships before Gandalf arrived, which means before Aragorn had the ships in his posession.
And unfettered use of the stone still doesn't make the stone itself all seeing. Saruman was tricked by his stone, as was Denethor, and obviously so was Sauron. If his stone couldn't see the Hobbits bringing the ring to Orodruin, how are we to know it was capable of seeing Aragorn comandeering the Black Fleet?
After biding his time for that long, and going through such pains to set up a carefully crafted assault, I find it hard to believe that Sauron was stupid enough to hinge his entire attack plan on whether or not he could fool Denethor. And he DID fool Denethor, so what did he get out of it? Denethor never would have abandoned Minas Tirith, and Sauron had to of known that Rohan would be coming to their aid (another thing that doesn't make sense is Sauron leaving the Ranmas Echor totally undefended afer they took it)
Sauron made enough mistakes for me to assume he didn't in fact know. Otherwise he would have warned his army to retreat when the battle stopped going his way. He still had a large army in Mordor he could have used to reinforce and try again.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Plus, Aragorn's successful battle for control of the Orthanc Palantir was critical to the success of the whole operation. That should never have been left out of the movie.
It's been awhile since I read ROTK, but I was under the impression that the important part was that Sauron was made aware of Aragorn's existence, not that Aragorn managed to gain control of the palantir. Did Aragorn get a lot of intelligence from the palantir in the book?
At any rate, I was glad they put the palantir scene back in the extended edition, even with the silliness regarding Arwen. It's much better than "Why should Sauron take the bait?" "Well, we'll just have to hope he does."
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lyrhawn, do you agree that Sauron deliberately fooled Denethor? If so, how could he have fooled him about something of which he himself was ignorant?
Defeating Denethor by all rights should have led to the defeat of Minis Tirith. Denethor gave orders for his men to kill him and Faramir, then go and find their own deaths however they liked. The defense of the first circle of the city was all but abandoned. Fires raged unchecked throughout several levels. The Great Gate was in ruins. Also, up to this time the Nazgul were pretty busy fighting against the city, inspiring the troops of their side, and bringing dread into the hearts of the defenders. I'm not sure Sauron would have thought they could be spared from that task to fly off towards Umbar.
Also remember that Ghan-buri-ghan and his men got the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith much more quickly than anyone counted on. Were it not for that, and the presence of Gandalf, who could still repulse the Witch King, and who had the ring-assisted ability to stir hearts to hope in the defense of good, the city would surely have been lost. Gandalf was able to take command of the defenses, which probably nobody else could have done. He then repulsed the Witch King at the gate. Then when the Rohirrim showed up early, this threw Sauron's plans into disarray. The Witch King took to the air again to reconnoiter, and apparently decided he could deal with the Rohirrim by toppling their king.
When Eowyn and Merry between them managed to dispatch the Witch King, something that surely took Sauron totally by surprise, then his plans totally fell apart.
But for Gandalf, who was simply beyond Sauron's reckoning, plus the incredible valor of Eowyn and Merry, the city would have been defeated well before the ships could arrive. Presumably Sauron counted on his victorius army to be able to deal with the threat of the ships from inside the city walls, if necessary, and with the Witch King in full command. It was only due to a string of four or five very unlikely events that his hopes were cheated.
posted
Shigosei, yes, it was by using the palantir that Aragorn discovered the grave threat to Gondor from the Corsairs of Umbar. That's what led him to take the paths of the dead, so he could reach the harbors in time, and incidentally call the dead to fight at the Stone of Erech (which he knew was his to do as the heir of Elendil). Before he looked in the stone he was planning to travel with the Rohirrim to Gondor and join the battle along with them.
posted
Alright Tatiana, I suppose I buy that. When you put it like that it makes more sense. I'm still not entirely sure he knew that Aragorn was in there, he wouldn't have needed to know himself, indeed it makes it all that much more ironic that he thought it was his force and rubbed it in Denethor's face, only to be wrong. But your reasoning is logical.
And the main reason why Aragorn chose to take the Dimholt Road to the Paths of the Dead was Elrond. When that ranger guy showed up with Elrohir and Elladan, they brought then message from Elrond to take the Dimholt Road. But I'm sure the Palantir helped, it was rather a turning point, and proof that he was in fact the heir of Elendil that he had the strength of will to pull it to his side.
posted
On another subject, why do you think it was Faramir who first got the dream telling him to go to Elrond's council? If I remember right, it was only till Boromir got the same dream that any action was taken. And it was also Boromir who got to go.
One reason I can think of is that Denethor didn't take Faramir seriously. Another reason is that Boromir was hungry for glory and so just "happened" to have the same dream so he would be the one to go.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, Aragorn got messages from both Elrond and Galadriel confirming that he should take the Paths of the Dead when time was short. I'm sure they served to reinforce his decision to take that route, despite the dangers, once he saw from the stone that it was necessary.
There's a cool description of how you use the palantiri in either The Book of Lost Tales, or Unfinished Tales (or maybe it's the Letters). Apparently unlike Galadriel's mirror, it shows things as they are now, and not as they were or might be in various possible futures. To see what's going on toward the West, for instance, you sit to the East of the stone and look through it toward the West. And palantiri seem to require a high room with a good view, since they are always installed in towers. They seem to be partly optical devices and partly mental focusers. It makes me wonder if Aragorn went to a high place the night he first looked in the stone. Can anyone remember?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, if I remember rightly, Faramir had the dream first, and several more times afterward, and Boromir dreamt it once only. I don't think he would lie about it, that's not like him. But his dad did favor him unfairly, so when they both wanted to go, Boromir got picked.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dunharrow yes. And Dunharrow itself is way up high, probably just as high as Orthanc, or at the very least Amon Sul. I'll bet he just did it from there.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
See, the reason he went to Dunharrow was because he was taking the paths of the dead. Remember, Eowyn thanked him for going out of his way to come and see her, and he told her he couldn't have come that way if it weren't on his way. Then she blenched and said there weren't any roads out of there.
He first looked in the stone before he left the Rohirrim on the way back from Isengard, I'm pretty sure, not long after Gandalf gave him the stone. Everyone remarked how old and worn out he looked the next morning, I seem to recall. Isn't that how it went?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes that's exactly how it happened, he saw the vision and then while riding to Edoras they were intercepted by the Dunedain and Elf twins and Aragorn was told of Elrond's advice. That sealed his decision to take the Dimholt Road to the Paths.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
