posted
Just wondering what the collective Hatrack opinion on the hand kiss is. Why did this custom disappear? Is it good or bad that it did?
Ladies: If a man kissed your hand on meeting you for the first time, would you find that charming or creepy?
Gentlemen: If other men started reviving the custom of kissing ladies' hands, would you go along with it, or adamantly refuse?
This is idle curiosity mixed with a deeper issue of concern to me which I may or may not continue to explore here, depending on how much interest this generates.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I kissed my first girlfriend on the hand at the end of our second date. She rather seemed to like it (at least, we went out for over a year after that).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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In no small part because, if I am not mistaken, the custom was in practice when ladies wore gloves, and the men didn't actually KISS the hands...just sort of air-kissed above them.
Also, regardless of my personal dislike of having my personal space invaded by strangers, it would definitely take a guy of GREAT charm (and charm that existed in places OTHER than his own mind) to pull it off without coming off like either a weirdo or a creep.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
On the first time meeting, I might be a little creeped out (depends on the situation, too). I'm usually charmed when my hand is kissed by an acquaintance or friend, or at least by someone I have met a few times. On the whole, I think it's a nice gesture. A step up from a hug, but not as far as a kiss on the cheek.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I've had my hand kissed upon first meetings and did not find it creepy. It hasn't disappeared completely, it just isn't something American men do, usually.
The custom of the hand kiss is really a very subtle thing. A man can tell a woman a lot about his intentions or interest by the way he kisses her hand. Does he hold her hand lightly or firmly? Does he keep his fingers still or lightly caress her palm? Then there are more obvious things like the duration, pressure or moisture of the kiss itself.
I'm tellin' ya - a couple hundered years ago, they could really pack quite a bit of foreplay into a 'simple' hand kiss.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I've been known to do it when either 1) it's someone I know well, or 2) I'm completely schnockered.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Creepy, if it's someone I just met. Funny, if it's meant that way. Possibly charming if it's someone I trust who is trying to flirt.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:In no small part because, if I am not mistaken, the custom was in practice when ladies wore gloves, and the men didn't actually KISS the hands...just sort of air-kissed above them.
That all depends. The custom varied across place and time. In many cases, actual contact was made, and, as Olivetta has said, could even be used to communicate subtle things.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers. I've had my hubby (and the occasional bf or two) kiss my hand, and THEN it's charming.
I'm too reserved, though, to really appreciate it if some random stranger tries to kiss my hand on first meeting...unless it were in some sort of context like, say, dressing up in historical dress (like a Ren Faire).
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers.
I was. I'm not much interested here in what people do with or to their wives or girlfriends or whatever. Obviously a woman would accept a lot of things from her husband whom she loves that she would never accept from a stranger.
My question was solely concerned with introductions between people meeting for the first time. For example, consider the following scenario:
WOMAN'S FRIEND: [Woman's name], I'd like you to meet my friend, [man's name]. WOMAN (Extending her hand): Nice to meet you. MAN: Nice to meet you. (Takes woman's hand and brings his lips down to meet it for a fraction of a second.)
posted
I have issues with germs, especially on my hands (don't get me started on the precautionary measures to take before leaving the house) and avoid handshakes whenever politely possible.
Hand kissing would not go over well with me Posts: 29 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Syn - I once kissed a guy's hand. It was a girl-ask-guy date, so I thought it rather amusing. Plus I had a huge monster crush on him. He later described me to someone as having "gumption."
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
The only men who've ever done that to me were European... no, I think one was Brazillian. Anyway, I didn't freak out over it.
American boys would do it sometimes as a pseudo-casual greeting, but only if they were flirting. How I responded to THAT had more to do with how cute the guy was.
I did have a co-worker of my husband kiss me on the cheek as a greeting the first time we met. HE was American, and I was a bit startled by it.
I get greeting kisses from friends of either gender all the time, though.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Social customs that harken back to a time when women had fewer rights than they do now and dont't have a practical element and/or are gender neutral concern me, because they make me wonder if the person using them would prefer that the relative power balance between men and women was the same as it was when that custom was prevalent.
An example of a custom with a practical element that can be gender neutral would be holding the door open for someone. It's a polite thing to do, and it's not unreasonable for whoever reaches the door first to do it.
A man trying to kiss my hand on a first meeting would not score any points with me, and if I could remove my hand or stop him from completing the action without causing a scene, I would.
I have had the experience more than once on meeting a man and extending my hand for a handshake that he grasps just my fingers and turns my hand so it's parallel to the ground instead of perpendicular, which usually also causes my fingers to bend, like he was going to kiss my hand. I dislike it intensely. Part of the reason is the old "you can tell a lot about a man from his handshake" line, and I feel to an extent that they do not consider me an equal because they will not give me a "real" handshake. I'm not trying to say that I judge people by their handshakes, although I probably do a little... I'm trying to say that I think some men still believe that, and don't feel they need to/should shake a young woman's hand the same way they shake a man's.
Hand kisses from men I know well and are using it affectionately in an exaggerated courtly manner are fine, as are hand kisses from men I know well who are attempting to be amusing. Hand kisses from men I am romantically involved with can be very nice, indeed.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Interesting. The hand kiss was usually perfomed by men of equal or lower social status than the lady, though. So might it not be thought of as a symbol of respect rather than oppression?
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
See, but I'm not sure it's relevant what the original custom was in this case. When I've had people try it to me the vibe I got off them was not respect, it was condensation. Maybe I'm too touchy about it, or maybe I've had the wrong people trying to kiss my hand.
A part of it also may be prickliness due to the concept of "seperate but equal." You (general you) can tell me that you mean it as a gesture of respect, but what I see is you wanting to treat me in a different way due to my gender. I'm fine with you wanting to treat all people with respect and kindness. And I'm fine with you wanting to treat me specially because I'm your friend or lover. But wanting to treat me differently because of my gender throws up red flags.
I don't deserve extra respect because I'm female. Saying I do puts me on a pedastal, where I don't want to be. Pedastals are not comfortable. There is nothing interesting to do on them. And they are hard to live up to... and if you trip and fall, it's a lot further to the ground.
I don't think you, Verily, are the type of guy who would squick me out in person. I suspect you like the "romance" aspect of the custom... it would be a more gracious and debonair way to greet a woman than the options you have now. But unfortunately I think there are still a lot of men out there who would rather women's rights took a few huge steps backwards, and as long as that is the case I don't think anybody is going to be able to revive this custom.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
One more thing... even if they were of equal or lower social status, they were still men. So they still had more rights than the women involved, both legal and by custom. So even if the man is implying that he thinks I'm his social superior, he could still be also implying that he wants me to stay in my "place." Be that the drawing room, the kitchen, or the bedroom.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I was best friends years ago with a guy who hand-kissed women. He was oh so charming and cute and adorable, and he could get away with it whereas the next thousand men could not. He had style and charisma and...
Yep. From him, the women loved it. From anyone else, not so much. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
*doffs hat* *sweeps into a deep bow, flourishing hat several times so the feather bobs around* *seizes fugu's hand gently but firmly with one hand and places the other on his wrist*
Ah! I am delighted to make your aquaintance! You are magnificent!
*turns hand over, drops one delicate kiss in the center of his palm* *squeezes hand lightly and lets go* *steps back and replaces hat at a jaunty angle*
That about what ya had in mind?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Well, except the feather in the hat. I wasn't expecting a regular Cyrano . . . or whatever the feminine form of his name would be, anyways Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I was trying to find a way to indicate that I would raise your hand up and kinda clutch it to me as I spoke, before I kissed it, but I couldn't find the right phrasing. "Raises fugu's hand to my breast" just didn't seem like a good idea.
posted
For a stranger, it would be icky. It would have to be from a guy that I'd at least already agreed to go on a date with. You know, possibly on the date, but it would be okay if he asked, I said yes, and he kissed my hand. Does that make sense?
Also, no slobbery hand kisses! I don't want to have to wipe my hand off afterward. Gross.
Posts: 486 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I'm actually totally okay with it if it's about flirting. The original question wasn't about flirting, it was about returnign to the hand kiss as a widespread gesture of respect from men to women on an initial introduction. While that does not necessarily preclude flirting, it does not specify it, either.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Really. How interesting. If someone came up to me and kissed my hand, I would assume that they would be flirting. I can't imagine someone doing it just to say hello in this day and age to every woman that they meet, which is the age we're discussing doing this in.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sorry, no, I meant condescension. I was so struck by fugu's presence that I was distracted, and all thoughts of proper word choice flew from my poor, bedazzled brain.
Oh, wait. He wasn't in the thread yet, was he? Nevermind.
quote:You know, possibly on the date, but it would be okay if he asked, I said yes, and he kissed my hand. Does that make sense?
All except the part about making him ask first. I don't know, I just think that a romantic gesture would be more romantic if it were spontaneous. Having to ask permission takes the edge off, I think.
quote:Also, no slobbery hand kisses! I don't want to have to wipe my hand off afterward. Gross.
That would be true of any kiss at any time, wouldn't it?
quote:Really. How interesting. If someone came up to me and kissed my hand, I would assume that they would be flirting. I can't imagine someone doing it just to say hello in this day and age to every woman that they meet, which is the age we're discussing doing this in.
I see your point, but I was also speculating about a general return of the custom itself. I suppose it would be hard to do this today without looking like flirtation. But if everyone did it for long enough, presumably it would stop looking like that.
Edit: And no, I did not just contadict myself. By referring to it as a "romantic" gesture, I was specifically addressing the issue that had been brought up of men doing this on dates.
posted
Storm: Right... Verily's talking about reviving the custom of doing it to every woman you meet just to say hello. Check out his third post in the thread:
quote: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I was. I'm not much interested here in what people do with or to their wives or girlfriends or whatever. Obviously a woman would accept a lot of things from her husband whom she loves that she would never accept from a stranger. My question was solely concerned with introductions between people meeting for the first time. For example, consider the following scenario: WOMAN'S FRIEND: [Woman's name], I'd like you to meet my friend, [man's name]. WOMAN (Extending her hand): Nice to meet you. MAN: Nice to meet you. (Takes woman's hand and brings his lips down to meet it for a fraction of a second.)
Obviously, I can't imagine it either. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I'm making her swoon by the mere aura of my eminent arrival, how cool is that
*sigh* ElJay, I don't suppose a clone of you was made at some point and raised in the bloomington area?
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Verily, I've actually had guys ask if they could kiss me or even hold my hand and had it be very romantic. It's all in how you do it. And it implies a concern about not being too forward that can be sweet.
I don't think it's necessary, certainly. But it's not necessarily bad, either. It's all about what works for you. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Well, I was actually responding to Eljay, but since you brought it up, I think it would be incredibly cool if it caught on and became a social norm again. Seriously, it would kick much ass.
And if that caught on, what other anachronisms might we see returning? Ladies could give little favors to football players and whatnot for them to wear in their game. Women could throw roses out onto the field for their favorite player. Shooting dangerous looks over fans. The subtle look across the crowded room. Wouldn't that be kind of cool?
Yeah, more romance between the sexes and less of this sterile all of us are the same boringness. I mean, in the office, o.k.. But can't we give it a break on the weekends or something and just have fun?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Ah well. Anyways, the clone wouldn't be you despite looking mostly like you, so 'twouldn't matter .
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I just can't picture it as something that was done all the time even back in the day, really. It would actually be really cool if someone other than me would dig up a link on the custom and its history. edit: What I mean to say is that I bet it was always primarilly, in actuality, about flirting.
quote: But can't we give it a break on the weekends or something and just have fun?
Man, I don't know where you hang out on weekends, but I don't want to be there. The subtle look across a crowded room is very much alive.
Are you really sure you want to go the route of giving favors to athetes and the like, though? I think that ends up with a large number of females sighing after a few "prime" males based on a distressingly few unimportant characteristics and ignoring the rest.
posted
What is with the almost-homophones in this thread?
"Eminent"? You don't think much of yourself. Although immanent would have been more impressive . . . Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm finding the dichotomy of trying to carry on a serious discussion about the thread topic and field fugu's over-the-top flirting somewhat amusing.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I thought the "favors" idea was kind of neat. Let's be honest, a lot of women swoon over football players for the wrong reasons anyway. Why not let them give the players a little scarf to tie on during the game? It would let the woman whose favor had been chosen feel special for the duration of the game, and the players could go into the locker room afterward and brag to their teammates about how many favors they'd been offered. Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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