posted
Best way to get outrageously flirted with is to flirt outrageously, Storm. Which may be why I see subtle glances... I send 'em.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought the best way was to casually stretch, flex my massive pectorals, run my fingers through my long, golden hair and then wait for the women to come to me. Who knew?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is it possible to NOT treat people with less respect because of their gender without thinking of everyone as "the same"? I've NEVER had the problem of considering myself normal Yet I usually (I hope) manage not to make assumptions based on a person’s gender. I try to respond to people I meet and interact with based on THEIR interaction with me. Not the person in questions gender, nationality or age.
*Passes out pocket sized bottles of hand sanitizer* Slobbery kisses are only acceptable from dogs Posts: 29 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:This fear of touching and flirting is weird. [Smile]
Coming back to this a bit late, but some of us are just a bit reserved in nature! I don't mind touching and flirting, but if I've just met you, I'd prefer you stay out of my personal space until I know for certain that you're not a creep. (You in the general sense, not you specifically. )
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm kind of surprised that so many people don't like hand-kissing or find it to be weird. I'm a pretty reserved person and a big fan of personal space barriers, but hand-kissing doesn't bother me (as long as it's not slobbery!). The couple of times, I've experienced it, it's been awkward, but mostly because I didn't know how to react.
Of course, I'm also used to greeting people with a kiss on the cheek, whether I've met them before or not, so YMMV.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If I had to choose between the return of the hand kiss and the adoption of the European cheek kiss, I'd choose the latter.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like touching and kissing. Hand kisses would be fun - a little dangerous, a little naughty, and great fun. And Olivia's right- you can tell a lot about a person by the way they choose to touch you. A hand kiss would let you know right away how much further interaction you'd want to have with a person.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not cool unless you are at an SCA or Civil War re-enactment event or you are Johnny Depp. In which case of the latter, you can do pretty nearly anything you want to and get away with it. Except the tongue. Keep the tongue inside. If you don't, it's like being greeted by a dog, and you don't want that comparison surfacing when you first meet a girl you think you might like.
I do think the hand kiss at the end of the first date very sweet and thrilling because, at that time, you know the feeling is mutual. But still, keep the tongue inside. Posts: 745 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I completely agree with ElJay about it NOT wanting it come back as a general custom. Mock humility is not fun, I don't want to be treated differently because I'm female by people I have just met, possibly in business situations, and I'd rather keep strangers' mouths as far away from me as possible.
It's different for flirting and "romantic" situations, though - all bets are off. That would be very fun.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had someone kiss my hand once, but it was at a Civil War re-enactment. It was a guy I knew, and I reached out to shake his hand, and he took it and kissed it. It startled me at first, but then it was kind of cool. Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have never had my hand kissed in normal society, but frequently and greeted with the hand kiss in the Ren world.I find id charming to have a man bow over my hand and kiss it, while uttering, "Delighted, milady"
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm. I guess I'm incorrigably flirtatious. I'd LIKE every man I met to kiss my hand. It lets me pretend I'm a queen or a goddess or some such.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it would certainly be interesting. While I do like it, I don't think I would in a business situation, simply because it doesn't seem very professional. Like Annie, I wouldn't mind if the Euorpean custom of cheek kisses crossed the Atlantic either.
Posts: 3420 | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Annie beat me to it. The "bisou" greeting would be a very pleasant habit to start in America. Although I would have no idea of protocol. Say you met the president of your company in an elevator.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I've gotten tipsy with the president of my company...
(Edit: And his wife.)
(Edit 2: That looks even worse. And about 20 other people. In perfectly respectable circumstances. But he's a friendly, personable guy, and if cheek kisses were the custom here I think he'd have no problem pulling it off appropriately.)
posted
Actually, I've seen plenty of serious responses here. Enough to know what the general consensus is, anyway. Women, in general, seem to dislike the custom and would oppose its return. The only woman so far who seems she would actively support it is Jenny Gardener.
Useful information if I ever get to meet all of you at a con.
Few men have weighed in on the issue, but at this point it seems irrelevant. It doesn't really matter whether or not the majority of men would welcome the return of the custom. Women oppose it, and as it is the women whose hands would be kissed, they are the ones who should have the ultimate say.
quote: If I had to choose between the return of the hand kiss and the adoption of the European cheek kiss, I'd choose the latter.
This is definitely not a 'European' thing. It's pretty much a Gallic thing, as far as I know, and if we're talking about men doing it to other men, please count me right out.
Even with the opposite sx, it has to be a lot more nerve-wracking than a hand kiss. Someone you don't know or barely know's face is heading in your face's direction. Are they going to actually kiss you on the lips or the cheek? As the reciever, should I be kissing them on the lips or the cheek? Yeah, there's just too much ambiguity there to be comfortable.
If someone is puckering up in my general direction, I'd just as soon know that they're offering a no-kidding kiss and not some foofy French greeting. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah ! A great thing, the kiss. In France, The custom is the cheek kiss to said hello. Pleasant.
But the hand kiss is something more romantic. It's something made by man with a lot of respect for the woman. It would said "you are pleasant to me, but if you don't want a deeper relationship, i don't go over the barrier." That's what i think. Moreover, it's a good way to perceive if the woman are receptive or not. But i speak like a frenchman and i don't know what is the custom in USA.
Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
What was that movie with Michael Keaton, where he played kind of a bum and he hand kissed a woman, but instead of kissing her hand he actually kissed his own hand? That was hilarious. I think it was a Shakespeare work or something like that. ANyway, if I was to do it, that's how I'd do it.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
My friends from Mexico greet each other and me with a cheek kiss. Sometimes I'm ready, sometimes I'm not.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think I'd like the cheek kiss thing. That's a little too intimate for my tastes. Humans tend to be protective of their heads--with good reason, I might add--so we're usually pretty careful about whom we will let touch our heads.
On the other hand, it is reserved for friends. You don't kiss the cheek of someone you're just meeting for the first time, if I understand the custom correctly. That's probably what makes it feel less squicky than the hand kiss. Yes, the face is a more intimate region than the hand, but whereas it was socially acceptable--even expected!--to kiss the hand of someone you didn't know, it was never acceptable to kiss their face.
quote:But the hand kiss is something more romantic. It's something made by man with a lot of respect for the woman. It would said "you are pleasant to me, but if you don't want a deeper relationship, i don't go over the barrier."
That's what i think. Moreover, it's a good way to perceive if the woman are receptive or not.
Are you saying the hand kiss is still common practice in France? Well, that's no surprise, I guess. Gallic romanticism is renowned the world over. I have to say, I like the way you've described it. It still wouldn't be used for a first meeting this way, but at least when used on a female friend, your description gives it more of a purpose than just wanting to be amusing or anachronistic.
posted
Being part Arab, two or three cheek kisses on alternating cheeks is a perfectly acceptable method of greeting in my view. I do not, however, use it on North Americans.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
And actually, I lied. One of my friends from Quebec greets me with cheek kisses. She's North American. So I guess I can't make general statements like that. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here, men greet each other with handshakes, limp ones at that. Men greet women, but don't handshake or otherwise have any physical contact, unless the woman initiates, which is usually only done by foreigners, and is usually a handshake. Women greet each other with cheek kisses.
I used to not like cheek kisses at all. But since everyone here does them, well, I've gotten used to them. They're okay. I'd also be perfectly fine not doing them.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's all about custom and context for me, too, Ryuko.
I will always resent being treated as an object rather than as a person, and when any given gesture is done as a sort of push-button thing ("I do this, and so you react thusly, or else there is something wrong with you -- i.e., you are rude, or not really feminine, or too sensitive, etc"), it'll get my dander up. I would much rather lift every damn heavy thing I have, fix my own car, amuse my own sweet self, and stubbornate my own way into destruction than have anyone play me like a fiddle. I ain't no fiddle, and I ain't no jack-in-the-box toy for you to wind up and spring off at your convenience, neither. 'Specially not to prove something to yourself about yourself.
When an action of any intimacy is non-customary for the context, I consider it to be just that more likely to be a lever to get something or somewhere with me. And I start listening pretty sharp for the old "but I'm a nice guy, and women never appreciate me" spiel. (i.e., I've been pushing all the right buttons, and they aren't springing rightways for me)
Which is why ElJay's reaction makes sense to me.
On the other hand, in a culture where a given action of intimacy is commonplace, then I judge it more likely to be an issue of custom or routine, and the "what the heck is he trying to get out of me" red flags don't rise up.
*shrug, twinkling grin
But I'll extend the benefit of the doubt, once, with any 'Rackers.
posted
That sounds rather rough. What I really mean to say is this: kind and thoughtful social interaction rests at its base on making the other person as comfortable and happy as possible. This is the purpose of the rules of etiquette.
Now, if one is going to work outside the generally accepted rules of behavior, that may well be just fine. If one has taken the time and energy to figure out whether this particular action will be acceptable (pleasing, welcome, non-threatening) to this particular person, then the focus has remained appropriate. And it ought to go without saying that any signals from the other person to the contrary should be both looked for and respected assiduously.
On the other hand, if the attempted action is done for the sake of your doing it, or because it should garner a particular response from the person (regardless of his or her individual tempermant and perspective), then it is done for you, not the other person. And that would make you a boor.
My two cents from my own individual and particular perspective.
quote:What I really mean to say is this: kind and thoughtful social interaction rests at its base on making the other person as comfortable and happy as possible.
But Sara, that's exactly why this thread exists. I'm not about to just start kissing the hands of women I meet without finding out how they are likely to feel about it first.
I think it's a common belief in our society that women are disappointed that "chivalry is dead". (Taking chivalry not in its original, literal sense of "code of battlefield conduct for horseback-mounted warriors", of course, but rather in its later, social sense.) I've often wondered to what extent that is true; would women, in general, prefer chivalry to die off completely, or would they like to see it come back somewhat?
Of course I can't imagine any modern woman wanting it to come back completely. Having a man want to protect you could be flattering, I'm sure, but sooner or later it will reach a point where you get fed up with the implication that you can't handle yourself, and then the game is over. But does that mean that the little niceties are forever out of the question?
For a man like me, who wants to treat everyone he meets with the respect and decency they deserve, this can pose a real conundrum. In the old days, everyone knew the rules. Etiquette was firm enough, and taught well enough, and enforced well enough, that everyone knew what was expected of them.
This is no longer true. Nowadays every person has different expectations, and it can be difficult to ascertain those expectations quickly enough to respond to them appropriately. I've had women get mad at me for holding the door for them. I've had women get mad at me for not holding the door for them. The old rules are out the window, which isn't bad in and of itself, but they don't seem to have been replaced by any new ones. Or at least, whatever new rules exist, exist in different forms in the minds of every individual person. We just don't know what we're supposed to do anymore.
So I made this thread to get a general idea of what the attitude was of women (in general; of course every individual woman will have her own opinions) toward a particular chivalrous nicety. (And also, incidentally, I wondered how my fellow men felt about it.) I chose the hand kiss almost arbitrarily, because I've always regarded it as charming and non-threatening. The women of Hatrack have since educated me that it is the opposite, and that any attempts on my part to revive the custom would be unwelcome, inappropriate, and alienating.
But I didn't learn this by trying it. I learned it by asking. I asked because I wanted to know whether it would even be okay to try it. Now that I know it would not be, I will not risk making the women I meet uncomfortable and unhappy by trying it.
So you see, I did not start this thread because I am a boor. I started this thread because I wish to avoid being a boor.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
[Note: this first part was written before I read Verily's charming reply. The edit at the end is in response, not this first part.]
One more thought, and then I promise to shut up.
A useful axiom for me has been "If someone loves you, then he or she generally will be happy when you are happy and sad when you are sad." I take this to be true in the case of a dating relationship, a friendship, a marriage, even a parental relationship. When we are with another we care about (and care about well, thoughtfully, generously, authentically), we are not happy at their discomfort, nor are we disgruntled at their pleasure.
Of course, we all have moments of jealousy, schadenfreude, resentment at another's good fortune, or just plain meanness. But I take that to be a momentary fault of character in the person experiencing it, not a problem with the person so envied. I find it in myself, sometimes, and I find that those are times when I am fearful or ashamed of something in me. (It's never really about the other person after all -- it is about me and my sense of self.)
So somewhere in my first marriage, I made the promise to myself that I wouldn't uphold any relationships in which either of us made a consistent and entrenched habit of taking pleasure in the other's pain, or pain in the other's pleasure. When that is a fundamental aspect of a relationship, then it is an unhealthy relationship.
And so if I were being courted, someone would be incorrect in assuming that I would enjoy this particular breach of custom (in the North American context, where I live). I could certainly understand and forgive a mistake. But if the courter were not immediately sensitive and respectful of my discomfort, then this would be a pretty clear sign (for me) that neither of us would be aided by pursuing such a relationship.
Of course, this has nothing to do with whether another courtee might (or should) react differently to such a gesture. Were it welcomed by another, I would see no reason for him or her not to pursue the relationship.
It's all about context, in other words.
[What Ryuko said. *grin ]
--CT
[Hey, ElJay!
Aw, Verily, I know you are not a boor. I can tell. The purpose of the thread was quite clear to me, and I find your broaching the topic quite charming, actually.
In fact, I think that a keen sense of courtesy -- when coupled with a quiet self-assurance -- is too often underestimated by this culture. Were you to bring up this topic [of conversation] on a date, coupled with a gently teasing look in your eye and a nearly (but not quite) exaggerated air of courteous attentiveness, I imagine that you might find many to be receptive to the flirtation.
Spontaneity is somewhat overrated. Don't understimate the appeal of restrained and attentive politeness. A slight air of reserve in one's courting can be quite irresistible, especially in this era of widespread eagerness to be "spontaneous."
I think the most romantic approach is to pay very careful and quiet attention to the person you are with. If you do or say something that makes her uncomfortable, make sure you notice it. And then don't do it again. (Don't hold it against her, either. By the way, this goes both ways -- for women courters as well as men.) This means you will end up reacting to an individual and quirky person, not an object. Not a stand-in symbol for "woman" or "date" or whatever. That, to me, is both romantic and hot. It is a more difficult and complicated way to relate to another, but it certainly bodes well for all future things in that relationship. *smile]
And then if one is generally reserved, one can be particularly romantic and attractive by being outrageous and truly spontaneous at the most unpredictable moments. *twinkle
Isn't life just grand?
Posts: 123 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I took up the costum of kissing my lady friends on the hand when I'm feeling cute and want cheer them up about 10 years ago. At parties or clubs I like to kiss the hand of new ladies I meet too... they REALLY like it! Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was born and raised in Venezuela and the usual greeting between guys and girls is a light kiss on the cheek and a hug, even when meeting someone for the first time.
It's really a much 'friendlier' culture, a bit more laid back I'd say in comparison to American culture. There are no 'accidents' of any kind because a stranger won't try to kiss anyone in the mouth and they do they'll get a swift slap in the face much like in any other place.
It's one of the things I miss to tell the truth, not only does it make your relationship more personal from the start but it also removes some of the awkwardness from meeting someone for the first time.
Here I usually just shake hands when I meet someone. The only time I hug & kiss a new acquaintance is when I know they are comfortable with it.
Hand kissing: I've done it before, but it needs to be a spur of the moment sort of thing. If it's forced it will just be strange for both people. It also helps if you say something along the lines of "Delighted to meet you" or "my pleasure".
Definitely something to be judged on a case to case basis though. Girls usually feel flattered when you do it but as I said, you sort of have to know how they will react before you do it Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I was working as a tutor, I had a first-time tutee kiss my hand at the end of the tutoring session one time. Creeped me out something awful, but maybe it wouldn't have if he hadn't been pretty creepy in the first place. I don't know. But that's the only time I've ever been kissed on the hand, and I definitely did not enjoy the experience.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been kissed on the hand many times, by two very different types of men. The first category involves the older man(45 and up), smooth, sophisticated, and flirty, but respectful. No learing, no lecherous staring at the chestal area while in a good position to do so. This type of hand kiss has always made my heart flutter and my face heat up, with a giggle hiding behind my teeth. This type of kiss happened most often when I was in Italy, but also in Boston and other cities with high european populations. The second category introduced itself to me when I started frequenting Goth Clubs. It involved skinny, malnourished little Lotharios, with velvet capes that weighed more than they did swirled artfully behind them as they bent over my hand in a not so gracefull swoop, staring at my cleavage and breathing heavily into my hand. These are pretty much the only situations I've ever had my hand kissed in. And, as one can guess, the first category is much more attractive than the second. There is something much more acceptable about an older man kissing your hand in a gentlemenly way while still expressing his appreciation for your beauty. Very few younger men seem able to pull this combination of subtle flirtatiousness and sweet gallantry. However, if one were to try, and actually pull it off, I wouldnt complain....
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
