Quite disturbing. I'm curious what the hatrackers younger than age 30 are being told in school? Was America the "real" bad guy in WWII?
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was raised in the north (New Jersey), and I got a pretty good look at WWII. In high school I took a Post-WWII history class as an elective that also encompassed WWII, so my learning was pretty comprehensive. My wife, on the other hand, was raised in the south (Richmond, VA), and learned mostly about the Civil War. She's said that she only learned about WWII from one history teacher while she was in high school or below.
We laugh about it, but it's pretty sad that the south is still so hung up on the Civil War, because I, as a northerner, spent the same amount of time on the Civil War as I did WWI. We did spend a lot of time on Slavery though, so maybe the north just fixates on what good came from the Civil War whereas the south fixates on the fact that they lost? :-)
quote:If there were any justice in the world, we would have the ability to transport our most severe critics across time and space to plop them down on Omaha Beach or put them in an overloaded B-29 taking off from Tinian, with the crew on amphetamines to keep awake for their 15-hour mission over Tokyo.
But alas, we cannot. Instead, the beneficiaries of those who sacrificed now ankle-bite their dead betters. Even more strangely, they have somehow convinced us that in their politically-correct hindsight, they could have done much better in World War II.
Yet from every indication of their own behavior over the last 30 years, we suspect that the generation who came of age in the 1960s would have not just have done far worse but failed entirely.
For me, this ending piece undermines his entire thesis. Mainly because it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of who and what he is criticizing.
I don't deny that to someone who made the sacrifices inherent in the Second World War, any criticism at all must seem like a slap in the face. But the intent is not that at all. And people are sometimes responsible for their own misinterpretations of other's motives.
I think this is almost certainly the problem here. They guy thinks that it's revisionist history, when it is simply highlighting -- for the purpose of completeness -- the "other, darker" side of the story.
It's not the fault of the people pointing this stuff out if people are uneducated about the WHOLE story. If you have to retell the entire story EVERY TIME in order to have credibility in criticism, then no critique is ever possible.
The facts are such that the great war, like every war, was horrible. Things that might've avoided the war failed. Those failures involve more than just evil bloody-mindedness of the Axis leaders. Economics played a key role. As did lots of other factors.
And, hyperbole aside, there's a good exhibit on US war propaganda in a US military museum in New Orleans that speaks a lot.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to disagree with the comments on Mao Tse-tung, most of the Chinese deaths were a result of mostly all the various civil wars and the war against Japan. Also if you took a look at it it was official Red Army policy in China to respect the people, don't steal, don't rape the women etc etc in order to gain their support in the war against Chiang Kai Shek who was doing the least effort to fight the Japanese. And actually saving all the aid and what not not to fight Japan but to crush the communists when the allies finished the war it took a coup d'etate against Chiang inorder to get him to agree to freakin agree to a unified front against Japan and wa spending his time before that fighting Mao.
The Chinese leadership tended to live like Peasents while the Nationalists lived like fat greedy capitalists and there will not be a single Han Chinese person who has lived under Mao who will not say that things are better then before. Everyone who died in the Chinese civil wars was essentially collateral damage or starvation as a result of it. After Liberation in 49' during the Great Leap Forward an extremly effective rationing prevented mass starvation as the Chinese also bought food from Canada and austrailia.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Alot of my history teachers at my college have views like this. They constantly spout off nonsense about how the U.S. was horrible in WW2 with the way we bombed cities. They say the U.S. was not needed in WW2 and how Russia would have liberated Europe without our help. They essentially say the U.S. was not a driving force in winning WW2. They also complain about the use of the atomic bomb in WW2 and how we should have invaded instead of using the bomb. It gets very annoying. Not to mention I am the student that helps international students get acquainted with our campus and the surrounding area. Every year once they start to speak english a little better they always start discussing politics and past history. They love to demean any accomplishment the U.S. has. Not all of the international students but alot of them act this way. It is almost as if they came here to find fault with our country and make themselves feel better about their own. Alot of them take constant cheap shots about our history and foreign policy.
I am not sure if that had anything to do with this essay but it seemed to fit. Like I said not all of the international students are like that, but I would say about 1/3 to 1/2 are like I described. The other students are usually extremely positive and looking for great experiences while abroad.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:They guy thinks that it's revisionist history, when it is simply highlighting -- for the purpose of completeness -- the "other, darker" side of the story
There is nothing wrong with looking at the other, darker side of things. The problem is when only that side is presented.
My daughter's history book does indeed spend a lot of time talking about internment camps and the horrors of the atomic bomb. I read it, and we spent a long time talking about what was going on in the world. I didn't excuse the interment camps, but I did tell her somethings about what was happening during WWII across the world.
You can look at all aspects of history, but those that emphasize only the "dark" side of America's involvement in the war are just as guilty as those that emphasize only America's greatness. America did some great things in the war. America did some things that weren't so great. Teaching only one side of the story, regardless of which side it is, is not teaching real history.
Let's teach what happened, and dwell on both some positives and some negatives. What is frustrating is history classes that spend days talking about how unfair the internment camps are and let the courage of the GI's in Europe and the enormous sacrifices of America to win a war against a tyrannical regime go barely mentioned.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with Belle. I think the story in school books should be complete. And going too far into rah-rah land, or going too far into mea-culpas are equally bad.
And anything that puts the blame on GIs for anything other than actual war crimes committed (against orders, especially), does a serious disservice to people who deserve our thanks and admiration.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Awww, I was hoping this thread would be about Harry Turtledove's Worldwar/Balance series. That's the kind of revisionist history that's much more fun.
posted
Sid, I agree with your point about Chiang -- he was a Machiavellian fool insofar as that's possible -- but you must acknowledge that Mao did far more harm than good. The man was completely sick. Especially later in life (e.g. the Great Cultural Revolution).
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe this historian had a point, he probably did. But the wau in which he attemptes to present this point makes him sound like an angy old man, not an historian.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
'Revisionist history' is one of those phrases people like to throw around that says a lot but means nothing, and is thus perfect agitprop. It marks anyone using it as the most rabid kind of partisan.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:single Han Chinese person who has lived under Mao who will not say that things are better then before.
Are you kidding? What about that delightful 'Cultural Revolution'? You're spouting nonsense. Try finding a Han Chinese in China who will freely speak a critical thought to a Westerner about Chinese government or Mao, and you should start playuing the lottery-your luck is phenomenal.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: 'Revisionist history' is one of those phrases people like to throw around that says a lot but means nothing, and is thus perfect agitprop. It marks anyone using it as the most rabid kind of partisan.
So, if I debunk a false history, I am a partisan?
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Easy enough, there's a Chinese girl living here for about a year and she says that things are diffenatly better then before.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: So, if I debunk a false history, I am a partisan?
Exactly. I say you're not, but the way 'historical revisionism' is used in this kind of article, the connotation of 'historical revisionists' is that they are academics and elitests, etc.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
How on Earth would she know, if she's only been there for a year? I can't fathom how you can possibly think Mao was good for China.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't recall that history textbooks through high school go into detail on much of anything. The detail and "the rest of the story" - (i.e., the other POVs) were the province of college studies - unless you lucked out and had parents that talked openly and kept other source materials handy - such as their old college textbooks.
And even then, remember - all history is revisionist. It is written over and over, with a tweak here, an omission there, an addition in chapter X. The victor writes the first round, and then the scapegoats chime in. And back and forth, etc., etc., etc.
posted
I thought that Mao's biggest accomplishment was weaning the nation off of opium and instilling a sense of Nationhood. I've been struck by the parallels between Mao's China and the Nation of Islam, and to an extent, you can see the trend from Jesus and Joseph Smith's efforts.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just a little comment on Victor Davis Hanson, since he is a local around here. You have to read his work in the context of the fact that he is part of a group of Central California conservatives who use the code phrase "historical revisionism" to describe anything that does not jibe with their particular reading of history.
I find it interesting that he laments the emphasis on the Japanese internment camps, considering the fact that when I was in school and learning my U.S. and world history in the 1970s, the internment camps were never, to my recollection, mentioned at all. I learned about them from my mother, who saw her neighbors of Japanese ancestry hauled away during the war. Also, we were taught in school that the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vitally necessary to saving hundreds of thousands of American lives that would have been lost in an invasion. This was in a post-1960s southern California school district that wasn't exactly known for the conservatism of its teachers. Yet Hanson contends that "...most Americans never learned the standard narrative of World War II - only what was wrong about it." So he can't say that he is only talking about what kids are being taught now, not with that "never" in that sentence.
I'm afraid that Hanson suffers from the ailment that many highly ideological thinkers on both the right and the left suffer from - the illusion that because they hold the ideology that they do, they know more than everyone else...about everything.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
lma...I was in So-Cal at the same time and our curriculum had nothing about Japanese Internment camps either. I found out about them on a trip to Hawaii as an adult, or perhaps it was a documentary not much before then. Bit hazy on the details, but it was MUCH MUCH later.
And while I'm not entirely sure what he means by "the standard narrative," I suspect that since I grew up with a huge dose of hero worship for American GIs even through the Vietnam era, I suspect I probably learned whatever it was he's thinking of. All I knew is that we were the good guys, saved Europe's bacon, and Hiroshima probably saved thousands of American lives.
It's kind of interesting that Nagasaki isn't mentioned. There's a pretty good exhibit on Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the Truman Presidential library. What an agonizing decision the SECOND nuclear bomb was. I mean, nobody in the administration could believe that Japan didn't fold after seeing the devastation from the first one.
Can you imagine deciding to drop another nuclear bomb? I admire Truman more than just about any American President, and certainly I think he's the best of the 20th Century in many, many ways. But that decision was probably wrong, all things considered. He couldn't have known it, but still...it's not easy to look at and think anything but "I hope we never do that again."
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
What did you know about the Bataan death march before the History Channel aired a special about it? Did you know that American POW's created teh foundation of wealth for Japanese companies like Mitsibishi, because American POW's were used in violation of international law as slave labor...and then those very POW's were told BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT to sign non-disclosure agreements preventing them from any legal action against the Japanese, as part of the treaty we signed?
And that anyone who refused to sign initally were refused passage home until they signed...once again as part of a secrect agreement between the Japanese government and our own?
I personally have heard a LOT of people trying to rewrite the history book about WWII, including a lecturer who claimed that the Nazis didn't really kill that many Jews in the death camps.
This isn't just about a PC label people use too muvh, it is a very real effort to completely change the history of WWII, and not to reflect greater truth.
There was one guy who was allowed back into the US without signing that disclsure...and he sued and was awarded millions.....one man sued about teh internment camps, adn was awarded millions as well.
These were NOT misuses of the judicial system, and were very important decisions....
But I had to search out them, because no one was reporting on either, not like they deserved.
posted
Well, I'm 20, so I just graduated from high school a couple years ago. I went to public school in metro Detroit, and our AP History book seemed to cover everything fairly well. Honestly I don't remember as I've taken so many college history classes since then, it's overwritten anything I knew before.
The American history class I just took last semester that covered WWII seemed to cover things from many points of view. It was mostly pro-American, and our discussion on the atomic bombs was more of a debate, rather than the professor pushing one view over the other, he let the class go and answered questions whenever something was unclear.
But we only spent time on that particular issue because everything else was so clear. Oops we screwed up on the internment camps, big time, but we also made massive efforts to save large portions of Europe from harm. So we did far more good than evil, and that was widely accepted. But since the bomb dropping by many is in contention, it was more hotly debated.
Personally, I think dropping the bomb was a good idea from many reasons. I think America did a good deed in that war, with some smaller misdeeds along the way, but they were certainly no greater than those committed by the other players involved.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am also 20, and here is my 2 cents worth: I think my high school AP history teacher did a good job covering both the good and the bad, but I definitely learned more about internment camps than things like Bataan, but not without good reason. Learning about how internment was allowed to happen is very relevant in keeping something like that from happening again in our society. On the other hand, having visited Dachau, I was sickened by comparisons made between internment camps and the Holocaust. From my perspective, they were not comparable.
In college now I am a History Education major, and I have taken several American, World, British, and WWII history classes at a conservative university here in the states and while studying in London. I have encountered a lot of criticism about U.S. efforts here in the states, but not at all in Europe. In the national museums in London the American role is, of course, not emphasized as much as the British, but it is both natural and acceptable in this case to focus more on your own nation. The main difference between the British story and the American story is D-Day. It wasn't a tragedy for the U.K. They had fewer casualties than expected, not referring to the entire Normandy campaign of course. In France people and museums were fully willing to criticize America now and in the past several decades, but there was a deep respect regarding WWII America and her GIs, especially from the older people. Even during times of greatest tension between France and the U.S., the American Cemetary at Normandy has never beed disrespected.
Of course terrible things happened on both sides, but I have realized through my study that it is impossible for us today to understand what it was like then. Total war did not mean the same thing for American citizens that it did for Europeans even then. I think it is important to learn from the mistakes of the past, and study the good and bad to get a more balanced perspective, but I think it is important that we remember that most of the soldiers involved were not career soldiers nor politicians nor controllers of large corporations. I hesitate to say they were heroic because that word has been cheapened by overuse, and so I will simply say that the vast majority of Anglo-American WWII soldiers deserve our deepest respect and admiration for sacrificing and getting the job done, though that respect is in no way exclusive to British and American individuals.
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with "not hansenj." I was surprised by the British Museum's down-playing of America's role in the liberation, but it does make sense.
And your last bit about the GIs is also spot on, IMHO.
Kwea...I'm not sure what you were responding to. Earlier you said the article was excellent. Were you trying to explain why you thought it was excellent?
I thought your post and and the links you gave were better coverage of the issue than the diatriabe in the first link.
It seems our children are at least learning a more balanced history lesson than the kids in Japan are. Maybe we should stop comparing our kids on math tests and use history instead. Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Who else here first heard about the Japanese-American internment camps from The Karate Kid?
Okay, that might not be entirely accurate. I might have first heard about them from Wonder Woman.
Of course, I didn't actually LEARN about them until my college roommate, a second/third generation Japanese-American, wrote an enormous research paper on the subject.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
As for Sid's friend, how old is she? How does she know things are better? From Chinese public school textbooks?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Likewise, I didn't hear about the internment camps, fire bombing of Dresden, Bataan Death March, nor the "Raping of China", until in High School and College, and none of it came from my textbooks, that I can recall.
posted
She's around 18-ish but she has parents that have their own parents and the stories are passed down. Also there are hard historical facts that Chiang Kai-Shek was not a good thing for china for many reasons, you may dislike the Communists in China for X reasons but they are far better then the Nationalists who would've made peace and givenup the coast to Japan for as long as they could crush the Communists instead, the fact that thousands of his troops disserted to the Communists should also say something, no Communist regime ever comes to power without the support of the people and the PLA had it for acting far more civily then the Nationalists. Times pre 1949 were far worse then post 1949, find me some solid reason to the contrary and I'll listen. I for the most part will list things that happened afterwards:
Equal rights to women controlling China's drug problems eradicating pests (mesquitoes, tics etc) controlling STD's which is currently considered an epidemic in America Rapidly increase China's industrial growth and agricultural growth increased the living stand of the average peasent making China a strong nation in the eyes of the world and rectifying the past humiliations And many others.
Now I won't say Mao was perfect, he was more of peasent originals and a guerilla fighter at hearts and felt that China should be developped through continued participation by the masses rather then say a rational economic policy, but far less deaths were needed in creating China as we know it today then in creating Soviet Russia, and those deaths weren't caused by the actions of the Communists.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Likewise, I didn't hear about the internment camps, fire bombing of Dresden, Bataan Death March, nor the "Raping of China", until in High School and College, and none of it came from my textbooks, that I can recall.
-Bok
Do you really think that kids should be taught that stuff BEFORE they get to high school?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it'd be better to wait until they are older, can understand it better, and care more.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bob, I do think the article was excellent as it raised several good points. I didn't say it was perfect..the ending was a little bombastic, to be honest, but overall some very good points were made.
I have seen a lot of people second guessing what the US did in the war lately, but it is easy to criticize now, many years later, when we don't have the same problems. Back then we had had very heavy casualties, and were facing many more, and we felt we had had enough. . .so we ended the war in the way we felt was best for our side.
So many things have been glossed over by the Europeans and the Japanese, but they turn around and accuse US of atrocities....
Only 1% of all American POW's died in German hands, but 38% of all POW's died under the Japanese work camps...and the very companies that used those POW's so horribly have products in almost every American household, but o not one cent has been paid as reparations by the Japanese government, and no apology was every demanded by, or offered.
But Japan has no problem complaining about the nuclear bombs dropped on them, even though they had armed their entire population, and told them never to surrender under any circumstances. I understand the civilian losses were horrible, but then again...if the population is armed and ready to fight to the last man, woman and child, are they really civilians?
How many Americans would have died in the on assault the Japanese mainland? No one knows....and in wartime, those types of calculations are necessary , as horrible as that sounds. How many Chinese workers died in those camps? Countless, well over 10,00 according to most reports, if not more.
Not one cent paid, not one apology issued.
But we are the bad people, the arrogant ones?
War sucks all the way around, but there has been plenty of time to at least try to make amends.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: ...no Communist regime ever comes to power without the support of the people...
Tell that to my many South Vietnamese friends.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: Times pre 1949 were far worse then post 1949, find me some solid reason to the contrary and I'll listen.
The people are repressed and the state controls and colors news. The Communist state is so popular in China that it required the slaughter of students in Tiananmen Square to keep themselves in power. They rule by fear.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: Rapidly increase China's industrial growth
By reacquiring Hong Kong and pirating American software and movies (Probably even Civ).
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: making China a strong nation in the eyes of the world
Strong, as in belligerant, but not necessarily universally respected.
quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: far less deaths were needed in creating China as we know it today then in creating Soviet Russia,
See comments about Tiananman Square
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, but tens of millions of Russians were killed during the Soviet rise to power, and then during their reign. What are the numbers out of China?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
While we learned about American mistakes and offenses, like Japanese-American internment, we only spent a few pages out of a large chunk of the history books (both the US history post Civil War book and the World History post Industrial Revolution book, which is pretty much where HS history was at, earlier stuff having been covered in Elementary and Jr. HS), although we did focus some on it in English classes. Mostly, we learned about the causes, course, and effects of WWII, from what I think was a pretty fair perspective, and we were also assigned and required to do independent research and reading using various sources, so I think we got a fair and pretty global look at WWII.
Of course, I was in the advanced track program in a school where the regular track was more advanced than what much of the state was doing. So I don't know what to tell you.
(I just turned 22, and grew up north of L.A. and Pasadena, CA.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I figured one of the reasons that criticism ramps up many years later is that documents describing it all become declassified and scholars get a chance to review and revise the official "history" at that point.
I'm not sure that's what's been happening in the case of the 2nd World War in recent years, but it would make sense that much of the "stuff" that was originally classified might be not just sensitive, but also contrary to the established truth that was deemed important to foster at the time.
Just a thought.
It wouldn't necessarily indicate that people were setting out to undermine the reputation of their own country, but rather that the newest, freshest information contains at least SOME nasty little secrets and that's what is naturally going to get the most attention because it CAUSES a revision in people's thinking.
Historians doing that kind of work really can't be expected to stop and worry about whether they are presenting a full and balanced picture, especially if they are writing for other historians. What happens to it in the popular media and culture is also not their responsibility. If the rest of us are ignorant of all the context, and thus, the reasons for continued pride and belief in the core narrative, is that really THEIR fault?
I think the term "revisionist history" is a lot like "activist judges." It's a fancy term for "I don't like what you did or said and I think you shouldn't have the right to do it or say it." It's a smokescreen. It is used to attack the messenger rather than address the real issue -- ignorance in this case.
Oh well...
I also think that textbooks need revision, but as long as we allow local school boards to pick and choose, and as long as TX is the state that drives what's in the Nation's textbooks at the macro scale, I don't see this problem getting solved any time soon.
All I can recommend is people educating their children in the things they feel are important. Afterall, if the average parent today thought that a realistic perspective on the 2nd World War was critical to their children's upbringing, wouldn't we already have that balance in their education?
It's all about priorities.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh. So she wasn't there at all, and has passed-down stories to 'prove' her position. That's what I was hinting at, and quite different from what you originally suggested.
I did not say Chiang was good, or better than Mao...but let me ask you, Sid, where would you rather live? Taiwan, or the PRC? Let me be blunt and say that if you answer PRC, you're a liar or under delusions.
The numbers out of China include grossly stupid decisions by the delightful Mao that involve the starvation of millions upon millions of the 'peasants'-are you of aware at how much that word reveals, Sid?-that he didn't manage to kill in installing his autocratic government. China to this day oppresses, frequently with brutality, anyone who does not toe the party line in religion (Mao), government (Maoist-Communist), press (Maoist-controlled).
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I think the term "revisionist history" is a lot like "activist judges." It's a fancy term for "I don't like what you did or said and I think you shouldn't have the right to do it or say it." It's a smokescreen. It is used to attack the messenger rather than address the real issue -- ignorance in this case.
The comparison to activist judges is silly. There are hundreds of examples of judges who rule based on their own opinion rather than constitutionality. I'm still waiting for somebody to point out where California's proposition 187 violatd the constitution, yet it was overturned by ONE 9th circuit extremely liberal activist judge, and the people of California have no recourse.
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Yeah, but tens of millions of Russians were killed during the Soviet rise to power, and then during their reign. What are the numbers out of China?
I made no such comparison.
Posts: 90 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Direct murder? Unknown, to my knowledge. Murder through negligence (i.e., hey, let's have every 'peasant' make their own steel for the state!)? Many, many millions.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
"By reacquiring Hong Kong and pirating American software and movies (Probably even Civ)."
Woah! The great leap forward in the 50's quite unmistakedly spurred massive industrial and agricultural growth and if I am aware Hong Kong wasn't given back to China until 1991... hmm....
As for South Vietnam, some did support it some didn't nothing there was 100% for either side.
Now don't you have any idea what it was like in the PRC pre 1949? Oppression by Nationalists, oppression by the land lords and rich peasents, oppression by the Japanese in 1932 onwards. Oppression anbd humiliation at the hands of westerners remember the sign "No dogs and Chinese allowed" in a Shanghai restuarant? And what about the famines and the mass starvation caused by the fact that local governors wouldn't even empty their granaries to help the peasents?
And if I remember correctly I said that millions of lives were saved from mass starvation during bad harvets years through an extremely efficient rationing system and food imports from Canada and Aussies.
Now, the point of what I was saying that things were better under Mao then under Chiang Kai Shek not that things were perfectly goodie goodie like it is in America *cough* presently. And you unless you can give me hard facts and references to the Chinese civil war statistics of how many died and accuratly give how many died supposedly at the hands of Mao and the CCP your aren't worth a fart. The fact that Mao, out numbered and out gunned somehow completely turned the tables on Chiang who possesed a multi million man army supplied by America some how managed to win a completely astounding victory.
I'll tell you how it happened Mao had the support of the People and the masses of China who gave the Communists food, intell and eager volunteers. All for the purpose of saving China.
Also, I find it interestng how no one seems to be refuting my points of the things that happened post 1949.
Now as to where I'ld want to live, I may want to live in China if I'm offered a job plenty of people including Americans and Canadians have moved to China for work. And yes the girl I talked to was born in China and came here about a year ago.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
