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Republican, Democrat, whatever your political veiws are, your religious views are, your moral views, we all support our troops in Iraq. At least that's what i thought before i watched this video.
quote:whatever your political veiws are, your religious views are, your moral views, we all support our troops in Iraq
I know someone who considers our soldiers to be monsters. And I'm sure there are many who share that opinion, especially in other countries. So you definitely can't say that everyone supports our troops regardless of their political views.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I think he was trying to not offend people who oppose the war, by granting the oft-made assertion that they still support the troops in their own way. Obviously it's not always true, Tres, but I think he was making his point with an olive branch in hand, and I commend the instinct behind it. We could use more people--on either side of any political divide--granting that those who see things differently are, by and large, still trying to do what's right as they see it. So stop picking nits. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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If you oppose the war, but support the troops, then logically you should support the insurgents just as much. After all, they too are fighting and dying (far more of them than the Americans in their armour and tanks) for a cause they believe in.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:A new shock site called Forsake Our Troops is doing the rounds. It purports to be the homepage of an organization "dedicated to the notion that our nation's military is grossly overcompensated, at the expense of the American taxpayers." In actuality, it's just an attempt to be outrageous. Apparently it was created by a White Power activist called Michael Crook (according to the True or Better blog). Crook seems to have a history of doing things like this. Last year he created a fake group called Citizens Against the Troops.
posted
Again, I think this is a silly point to debate, because it was not central to the original post. I'm much more curious to know what Porter has to say on this. But when people say they oppose the war and support the troops, I think what they mean is that they don't want their compatriots to die or be injured, and believe that this would best be accomplished if they were not over there fighting. In my case, I think this particular war was a bad idea, but that doesn't mean I think that the insurgents are the "good guys." I think they are the "bad guys," I just don't like the circumstances under which we chose to go to war with them. So I could care less that the insurgents believe in their cause. I don't support the war, but I certainly hope more insurgents die than American soldiers. For as long as we're in Iraq, I hope this is the case. And I hope we earn the love of the people, set up a stable democracy, achieve all of GWB's goals, etc etc. And I wish we had not invaded as we did. Clear enough?
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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btw, my last post was typed before seeing Porter's link, just in case that causes any confusion.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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A few weeks ago I saw a CNN segment where a bunch of guys sat around analyzing partisan news blogs.
I'm beginning to agree with John Stewart that the 24-hour news system is so hungry for content that most TV news outlets have clearly abdicated their journalistic responsibilities.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: If you oppose the war, but support the troops, then logically you should support the insurgents just as much. After all, they too are fighting and dying (far more of them than the Americans in their armour and tanks) for a cause they believe in.
Unless of course you disapprove of their methods and their goals. Merely fighting for a cause you believe in is only a part of the equation necessary to receive "support."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Mph, (from what you originally said) I don't see how that implies that he is conservative and that he only made this website to discredit liberals. I think he just made this website and the previous one because he wanted a rebellious opinion or something like that. He saw people not supporting the war, he wanted to take it a step further and not support the troops either. He was an idiot either way, of course.
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: You can support the troops even if you disapprove of their methods and their goals.
No, see, there I draw the line. If their goals are bad, their management is bad, and their methods are bad, at some point you can reasonably expect people with brains and consciences to leave the military. If not, like KoM suggests, you're left with "I support the troops because they're Americans," which is the only criteria that wouldn't also apply to, say, the insurgency.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I'm not trying to get if your support the war in Iraq, but wether you do or don't, everyone should hope for the safe return of loved ones who are fighting this war. Notice how all the little ribbons on the back of people's cars say "support our troops" not support the war.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
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DPM, I agree completely. I was in the Army, as was my uncle and my father...and my Aunt was a Marine for over 30 years. My mom's brother was in the Navy....
You get the picture...
While I don't support why we went to war, and think someone should have to pay for it, the soldiers aren't the ones who should have to.
When my father was in the Army he was a recruiter (after Korea), during Vietnam. His office was firebombed, his friends were stoned, and several of them were mugged and left for dead. He had to change into civilians clothes for the Statton Island Ferry ride home every day, because if he went out in Uniform he was placing his life in danger.
I don't EVER want that to happen again, to anyone. I have little or no respect for BC, but I wouldn't stone him, and would try to stop anything like that if I were to see it happen. I don't care what my feelings about this war are, I would never consider such things appropriate...
Next time though, try running these things through Snopes, it makes things easier. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I don't know if we can say conclusively that this site is a hoax, based on just that one link. This guy's goal is to be obnoxious, but that doesn't mean he doesn't really believe this crap.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tom, I think it depends on what you mean by "supporting our troops."
If we buy into the president's narrow view of support ("you are either with us or against us"), then yes, I guess there are limits to how much you can support your troops.
But I'm not just talking about throwing parades, sending care packages, and tying ribbons around your mailbox regardless of what our troops are doing.
"Support" can also mean that as citizens, we make damn sure that we only use our military when force is absolutely necessary and justified.
One can support the men and women risking their lives for our country without supporting the political agenda that put their lives at risk in the first place.
I firmly believe that I am supporting our troops when I question the war in Iraq.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:If you oppose the war, but support the troops, then logically you should support the insurgents just as much.
I agree to a certain extent, if support means "hope for the safe return of loved ones who are fighting this war." I did oppose the war, and thus I would greatly prefer if nobody had died on either side - and I definitely would want insurgents to come home safely and stop fighting, rather than get killed. However, I think I have a special duty to American troops, if only because they are my side - sort of like how parents have a special duty to support their kids most of all, but to a much lesser extent. So, I actually probably support American troops more, if that makes sense.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:If you oppose the war, but support the troops, then logically you should support the insurgents just as much. After all, they too are fighting and dying (far more of them than the Americans in their armour and tanks) for a cause they believe in.
This is outrageous, and it is *not* what supporting our troops is all about.
A military man once told me that it doesn't matter *what* you think of the war. You can be for or against it and still support the troops -- or not support them. What he sees as nonsupportive is sending troops someplace and then taking away the tools they need to do their jobs. Like John Kerry, for example -- voting to send the troops overseas and then voting against the spending bill that would have provided them with equipment. We elected our legislators and we are responsible for the decisions they make. The military is a tool, not a political or representative body. People join for all sorts of reasons, but the ultimate mission is to protect this country's security. Regardless about how you feel about war in general, I don't think anyone is sitting here arguing that a military, at this stage in the game, is totally unnecessary.
Basically, supporting the troops means giving them the tools to do their jobs. If Congress/the people decide we don't want their job to be fighting in Iraq, we don't send them. But if we do, we give them the money and the tools they need to do their job safely and successfully.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:However, I think I have a special duty to American troops, if only because they are my side - sort of like how parents have a special duty to support their kids most of all, but to a much lesser extent. So, I actually probably support American troops more, if that makes sense.
*incredulous*
I feel like this should be a no-brainer. We're not talking about an army of a sovreign nation that is being occupied and oppressed solely so that other nation can benefit, despite the many claims to the contrary. There are a million things wrong in Iraq right now, to be sure, but these insurgents are NOT supported by the majority of the Iraqi people.
They blow up children. On purpose.
That *really* makes your hemming and hawing sound ridiculous.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I had a friend who was upset that her dad lost his job because he was in the Reserves and got sent to Iraq. She believes that her dad should recieve the weekly pay from the government that he would have recieved had he not lost his original job.
Here's where I can see that guy's point of view. My friend, I'll call her Amy(that's not her real name). If her dad wanted to keep his job, he shouldn't have signed up for the reserves. He signed up knowing fully that should we get put into a war situation, he could be sent overseas. Her response is: "He didn't know we were going to get into a war in the first place." So? No one did! Asking for compensation for a risk you CHOSE to take is ridiculous.
As for soldiers being OVERpaid, I don't agree. I think their pay is fine... my dad was in the Air Force for 20 years, I was born in Italy. We moved around a lot when I was a kid, until he retired cuz he got sick of making us start over with our friends and our schools every few years. But that's something you CHOOSE to do. Don't complain about wanting to be compensated for your wrong decisions. That's your problem. That's like saying, "I had sex with a prostitute, now I have AIDS, Pay me for my medicine." Americans these days are far too used to being pampered. We need to learn to stand up and take the consequences of our actions. I think that's the point this guy was trying to make.
I'm not trying to offend anyone here... again, I grew up as a military child. But we need to stop complaining and learn to take it. After all, part of freedom is the freedom to be wrong, as well as right.
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That *really* makes your hemming and hawing sound ridiculous.
We overthrow sovereign governments on purpose, killing countless Iraqis (innocent and guilty) in the process. And that's not to mention that there's probably as many American soldiers torturing prisoners as there are insurgent soldiers blowing up children - very few but some in both cases.
Thus, if I were going to withhold support for using methods I thought were horribly wrong, I wouldn't be able to support anyone.
quote:As for soldiers being OVERpaid, I don't agree. I think their pay is fine
And as to this.... I can't imagine how our soldiers could be overpaid. For one thing, they risk their lives - that's certainly worth more to me than whatever they are getting paid now. For another thing, we can't recruit enough soldiers - that to me says supply and demand show we are paying them too little for their duties, not too much.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:We overthrow sovereign governments on purpose
Tres, there are many arguments for not going into Iraq. That Saddam Hussein wasn't a vicious dictator who deserved to be tried and brought to justice by the families of the people he murdered isn't one of them. Your response to my argument doesn't hold water.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Here's where I can see that guy's point of view. My friend, I'll call her Amy(that's not her real name). If her dad wanted to keep his job, he shouldn't have signed up for the reserves. He signed up knowing fully that should we get put into a war situation, he could be sent overseas. Her response is: "He didn't know we were going to get into a war in the first place." So? No one did! Asking for compensation for a risk you CHOSE to take is ridiculous.
As for this, I think the laws should be changed -- not to "pamper" reservists but to provide incentives and support for those who choose to make the sacrifice and serve. It's already illegal for banks and creditors to threaten the home equity of deployed reservists who have lost primary incomes due to serving overseas. It should be a crime to fire people, too.
On another note, some companies -- like Sears -- have gone to special lengths to ensure their employees have jobs when the return, by prohibiting their firing and even maintaining their salaries (I'm not sure if it's full or half salary, but it's something). My kudos to them.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Preventing them from getting fired, that I can agree with. But when you have a job that you could lose for getting sent overseas... don't sign up. It's as simple as that. People always say to "support your country" by signing up for the military. But where would our country be if not for the average worker? The guy who runs the checkout lane at the grocery is contributing to our society as much as the soldiers are. The military isn't the only way to support your country. I say, support your country by doing whatever makes you happiest and fulfills your goal in life.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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