posted
When commas are used to separate a list of things do you usuually use the last comma?
Compare:
"For dinner, the Girl Scouts ate steak, onions and ice cream."
"For dinner, the Girl Scouts ate steak, onions, and ice cream."
According to my CliffsNotes Grammar guide:
"Use commas to separate items in a series. Although some editors feel that it is acceptable to omit the final comma in a series--journalists and business writers frequently do--it is safer not to."
Personally, I like using the last comma because I think it helps make sentences clearer. But I know some people who are pretty adamant about never using the last serial comma.
What is your preference?
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I have launched a comma austerity program, however, because one of the people who edits my work on some projects is a real stickler.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I like to use the last comma. Rules change all the time, I think not using the last comma is an old rule that is slowly changing.
Like the difference between who and whom is slowly eroding, where who is becoming acceptable as whom. That annoys me, because it took me forever to learn the difference.
posted
That final comma is called the serial comma. The Associated Press guide and most other journalistic style guides recommend against it; the Chicago Manual of Style and most other non-journalistic authorities recommend that it be used.
In other words, if you're writing a newspaper article, omit it. If you're writing a novel, use it.
Some sentences are clearer with it, and some sentences are clearer without it. Wikipedia has pretty good examples of both at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma .
Personally, I'm a fan, but I can put up with it being omitted. I did, however, find myself banging my head against the wall upon finding a sentence with the following punctuation in a document I was editing:
"Her favorite colors are red, blue, and yellow, and her favorite animals are cows, dogs and horses."
So far as I know, there is no parallel debate on whether one should refrain from using the serial semi-colon when dividing a list with that punctuation mark. I'd be really interested in learning about any style guide that recommends against it, though.
posted
I almost always use it, but sometimes it doesn't seem to fit, and then I don't. But in general, I think most lists are clearer with it.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
When I teach that rule to my students, I tell them that it is recognized both ways but I always use it. It is not something that is tested on my state's standardized test (not that that actually means anything).
I think the harder rule is that no comma is needed for a conjunction that joins an independant clause to a dependant one, but one is needed before a conjuction in a compound sentence. One kid challenged me this year with the idea that it would be easier to remember to ONLY put a comma before a conjunction in a compound sentence and not anywhere else. I get where he was coming from but I told him that his genius self could remember all the rules. haha
I googled and came up with this interesting website: linkyPosts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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"The only authorities who advocate omitting the final comma are newspaper style guides (which wish to save column space) and some English writers (who waffle on the rule)."
posted
I prefer clarity, and if it isn't there, well, see Mr. Funny's post. And Jon Boy's. So yes, I use it.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: "Use commas to separate items in a series. Although some editors feel that it is acceptable to omit the final comma in a series--journalists and business writers frequently do--it is safer not to." (emphasis mine)
I always figured that the final comma was optional, so I use it or not, as the mood strikes me. I just love the freedom of deciding to toss in optional commas or leave them out.
But I hadn't realized that there was a safety issue involved. Gosh, if only one life is saved by having sufficient commas, well, it is certainly worth the expense.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I use serial commas, and am slightly annoyed when I read something where they are omitted.
If you really want to get my goat, be inconsistent about their usage. I'm in the process of editing/retyping something for work that uses them sporadically. It's making me nuts.
Pick one option or the other, and stick with it!
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I used to always use it. I have an unhealthy obsession with commas, though, so lately I've been omitting the last one.
I'll probably go back to using it. I've found, as many people here have alread said, that omitting it emphasizes the __ and __ as being more closely connected than the other items on a list.
Posts: 367 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The example the Chicago Manual of Style provides is a sentence about "my parents, Mother Teresa and the Pope." This, at least, is one case where the serial comma is absolutely essential. Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agre with the two previous posts. The "and" joins the two last items in a confusing way unless they are split by a comma. However, I probably don't actually write that way in reality although I never really thought about it before.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: When commas are used to separate a list of things do you usuually use the last comma?
No way. I never use it, unless it's necessary to avoid ambiguity , depding upon context. Maybe I got that from Hebrew punctuation-style, but I don't put in the last comma.
<--- Son of a well-educated English teacher, student of a well-educated English teacher; personal recommendation from them.
But I definitely agree with Rivka's bold-letters. Choose one, and remain consistent; otherwie you'll driv the reader crazy - and you've got to count my type of people as readers!
But I always keep internal consistency within a document. I just decide before I begin writing whether there will be a final comma in the serial or if it will get omitted throughout the entire document.
So calm down, rivka. I would never be inconsistent and get your goat. Even if I really really wanted your goat.
But I always keep internal consistency within a document. I just decide before I begin writing whether there will be a final comma in the serial or if it will get omitted throughout the entire document.
I'm cool with that, then.
quote: So calm down, rivka. I would never be inconsistent and get your goat. Even if I really really wanted your goat.
Which I don't.
I'm perfectly calm. *twitch*
*suspicious* What's wrong with my goat?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well, I'm not a veterinarian, so I am probably not qualified to diagnose. What symptoms is your goat having?
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Yes, use it -- please! And let's ALL decide to use it. Leave out the commas around interrupters and even create a couple of run-ons when necessary to create voice; just split the series! Meanwhile, can we please decide to eliminate the apostrophe in all plurals that aren't possessive? I'm referring of course to CDs and DVDs.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Apostrophes never existed in plurals such as "CDs" and "DVDs". Writing "CD's" or "DVD's" is the same as writing "Two pizza's for the price of one".
quote: Jon Boy is my favorite grammar geek.
Yeah, well, he has too-many-years' more education than I in grammar.
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Wait! But Jonneh Boy is - and probably will always remain - no match for me in Hebrew / Semitic grammar. And he can't be selective about the languages used... So I have my right to rule over the galaxy. Ha!
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I think the best solution might be to alternate between using it and not using it, which won't damage the meaning of the sentence and will have the added bonus of annoying any grammar nazis that might read it.... Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
as ambyr said, it depends on what style you are using.
I was taught to use the last comma during grammar class in high school.
But then when I worked for the newspaper, we were forbidden from using the last comma, because it wasn't AP style (which is the style most newspapers adhere to).
So it depends on the application and what style you are needing to follow.
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: Apostrophes never existed in plurals such as "CDs" and "DVDs".
Not true. They exist all the time, even though they shouldn't.
And yes, it's true that you know Semitic grammar more than I do. I think I'll blame this on the fact that I don't know any Semitic languages.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Apostrophes are the hardest punctuation to teach especially since they are so misused in the real world. For instance, several years ago The Grinch movie was released billed as Dr. Suess' The Grinch. Movie link This irritated me to no end! It should be Dr. Suess's movie because he is one person! Here are the apostrophe rules I found on the website I linked to in my last post.
quote:Forming possession on words that end in s" is much less confusing if you sound out the word. The rule you are trying to remember concerns forming possession on *plural* nouns — not words ending in "s" generally.
Though it ends in "s," "James" is singular: "James is a great guy." To indicate possession, you would *say*, "Fido is Jamziz dog." You would write, therefore, "James's."
Say you live next door to a family surnamed James. When describing the lot of them, you'd form a plural with "es": the Jameses. You would use the "es" because the singular ends in "s," and we couldn't pronounce the double-s: the Jamess. You would *say*, "We are dining with the Jamziz (Jameses) tonight."
When describing a family possession, you'd *say*, "That is the Jamziz car," but you would write, "Jameses'." In this case, you would not need the extra "s." It does not get pronounced. You do not say,"Jamziziz." The apostrophe alone suffices to indicate possession.
And you goat just has a cold. Feed him lots of chicken soup, have him take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.
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quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Apostrophes are the hardest punctuation to teach especially since they are so misused in the real world. For instance, several years ago The Grinch movie was released billed as Dr. Suess' The Grinch. Movie link This irritated me to no end! It should be Dr. Suess's movie because he is one person!
This is another one of those rules with variations. Some people use only an apostrophe for names that end in s, while others use the apostrophe-s. The reason for this is that not everybody pronounces a second s (or z, really) on the end of possessive names.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I usually add the apostrophe-s for names like Wes (Wes's). But for names where several s or z sounds are bunched together -- "Jesus" for example -- I tend to just add the apostrophe without the additional s.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I don't usually use it, although if it strikes me as being too ambiguous I'll toss one in. My preferred method of comma usage is, of course, to dip a brush in ink and flick it over the page.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Tech writing class prof suggested that using a bulleted list would be clearer and more likely to be read correctly than a sentence with several items separated by commas . . .
If I want the information obscured, I bury it in the middle of the paragraph using a sentence format.
If I want information paid attention to, I bullet it. Bold it. Highlight it. Color it. Underline it. And send it three times at least.
And even then a whole lot depends on the literacy level and/or "give a damn" principle.
quote:Originally posted by Shan: If I want information paid attention to, I bullet it. Bold it. Highlight it. Color it. Underline it. And send it three times at least.
posted
I do my best to avoid the possessive with names that end in S or Z. My boss has noticed on occasion that I've restructured sentences in order to eliminate the need for an apostrophe. Not that he's ever complained... Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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