posted
I thought I'd start a separate thread for this since the other thread has turned into a debate over whether premarital sex is destroy society and so forth. I want to sort of get into the topic of judging others, which relates both to that thread and to another thread I created a few weeks back. The idea for this thread came from the premarital sex thread, but I think I relates more to the other.
So in my other thread, I was talking about not wanting to date people who had had premarital sex. I was told at that point that I was being judgmental and should stop being so. So I sat and thought about it, and I reached a conclusion of sorts.
(This may seem tangential but please stick with it) As far as friends go, I have several who have had premarital sex (and I'm fairly certain my brother numbers among them). I don't really condemn them for this, as I can understand why they do it.
I can't speak for females (since I have no clue what the female experience is in this area), but I do know with guys there is a high pressure to have sex (married or not). This isn't just sex drive (since everyone has a sex drive, big or small). There seems to be a societal pressure for guys to have sex as soon as possible. I know in my middle school, it seemed that all guys thought that any kind of sexual contact made you cool or was awesome or whatever. In fact, I played along with it, making jokes to my friends about some of this stuff. I can recall though always feeling a pressure to have sex. Part of it was just sex drive (those hormones do make you go crazy), but part of it was just this idea of "everyone is doing it and says it's cool, so I should be doing it too." So there is definitely pressure there to do it. On top of that, I understand that not everyone has the same morals I do, and so they may give into said pressure.
From this sort of reflection and such, I can see that I am tolerant to a point in regards to premarital sex. I understand why they do it (or at least I think I do), and I don't hold it against them too much. I may wish that they hadn't, but it's not in my control and it shouldn't bother me.
If that is the case though, then why am I so judgmental about females and premarital sex? I think I've got some reasons for it. The first (maybe the more obvious of the two) is just insecurity in general, which I'm sure a lot of people feel. I mean if the girl has had premarital sex, she'll be more experienced and so forth, which is enough to make a guy nervous (of course the argument could be raised that love would triumph over that, try telling it to a guy who overthinks every situation). The second is the more important reason why. If a girl has had premarital sex, then her morals are different than my own (it may only be a slight difference or it may be a major difference, hard to tell from that one act alone). If her morals are different from mine, I doubt very much whether we would ever click as far as love is concerned, mainly because this idea of a certain kind of morality and moral fortitude is important to me. With these two reasons in mind, I can understand why I judge females harshly in regards to premarital sex, because to me it is seemingly a deal breaker. Maybe I'm wrong; I'm open to opinion.
Someone may bring up (if they read my other topic) the fact that I am no longer friends really with an old female friend of mine due in part to the issue of premarital sex. I'd assume someone would make the argument that since I don't judge my male friends harshly, why should I the females? My response is that our friendship dissolved not over the issue of premarital sex but over the issue of honesty (or rather lack thereof). She said and did things in one way (even before she really knew my own positions on these things, since with friends I tend not to discuss it as much), but then she flip flopped later on (and basically flipped out on me for pointing it out to her). So yeah. I could easily have female friends who have had premarital sex as long as they were honest from the start.
Maybe I'm off on another tangent. I don't know. I think you guys can tell from the length of this thread though that it is stuff that has been on my mind. I have too much time to think on such topics. I should probably do more homework. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I think it is rash to judge solely on the fact of whether someone has had premarital sex versus their overall attitude toward fidelity and honesty.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Some are ruled by sex by the constant pursuit of it. Some are ruled by the avoidance of it. Neither attitude seems particularly healthy or "adult" to me.
But then, I also don't think that people who aren't yet functioning adults have any business having sex because they aren't equipped to handle the consequences of it.
Premarital isn't nearly as big an issue for me (it's a non-issue, really) as is the problem of people who are literal or functional children having sex.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Bob, not to be argumentative in the least, but what's your definition of functioning adults? I'd like to know so I can compare it to my own.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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For my friends and I (all of whom have had, or have no qualms about having, premarital sex), the issue is much more easily rationalized.
Sex - and any physical expression of romance - is a big part of our romantic relationships, and an important one. I don't mean to suggest that sex is a make-or-break deal in a relationship, but sexual compatability is certainly an important thing to consider.
As you may or may not know, it is much more difficult for a woman to have an orgasm during sex than it is for a man to do the same. There have been several published studies in this regard (I'm not going to bother to look for them - if you need independent confirmation of this, go right ahead and google it). If the sex isn't physically satisfying for one person but is for the other, there's an imbalance, and I think that imbalance is detrimental to the relationship.
Again, I don't think sex is a make-or-break deal for a long-term relationship, but I think it's one of those things that you need to get out of the way so you can attend to the more important aspects of compatability.
With that in mind, I think pre-marital sex is a way of helping ensure your relationships work.
Now, I am by no means condoning pre-marital sex for everyone, and I'm quite aware that pre-marital sex (especially underaged) has been linked to all sorts of physical and psychological problems. I am DEFINITELY not condoning casual sex, which is an entirely different ball game, but within the scope of a serious relationship, I think pre-marital sex can be a good thing.
I know many people who have moral/theological reasons for not having sex until marriage, but until someone can point to a non-religious reason why it's "wrong" to engage in pre-marital sex, this will continue to be my viewpoint.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I know many people who have moral/theological reasons for not having sex until marriage, but until someone can point to a non-religious reason why it's "wrong" to engage in pre-marital sex, this will continue to be my viewpoint.
Well with me it went from some moral idea to a theological one. When I was in my early teens (and my hormones were first pumping up), I decided it'd be okay to have premarital sex if a) you were in love and b) were intending to get married. I think it was this way because I was distancing myself from religion at the time (for reasons I won't go into here). Around age 17 or 18 (so only a few years ago), I became more religious and I changed to the idea of no premarital sex at all. This is what works for me, and I don't think it's right for everyone. Everyone has their own opinions/views on things. I still think though that whoever I end up with should share a similar view (just because to me it is a very important thing).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't see how pre-marital sex has any bearing on whether women catch up in the satisfaction department. If women marry a man solely because he can "satisfy" her, it makes for a high rate of failed marriages as my admittedly non-scientific survey of military marriages bears out.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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If a woman marries a man solely because he can satisfy her? Isn't that polarizing what I said just a little bit? I'm going to quote my own post:
quote:Again, I don't think sex is a make-or-break deal for a long-term relationship, but I think it's one of those things that you need to get out of the way so you can attend to the more important aspects of compatability.
With that in mind, I think pre-marital sex is a way of helping ensure your relationships work.
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: I still think though that whoever I end up with should share a similar view (just because to me it is a very important thing).
I think that if you have ANY reasons for abstaining, and those reasons are very important to you, you have a right to be discriminating about who you choose to have a relationship with on the basis of those reasons! I'm glad, however, you realize that what works for you won't work for everyone.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: that is the case though, then why am I so judgmental about females and premarital sex? I think I've got some reasons for it. The first (maybe the more obvious of the two) is just insecurity in general, which I'm sure a lot of people feel. I mean if the girl has had premarital sex, she'll be more experienced and so forth, which is enough to make a guy nervous (of course the argument could be raised that love would triumph over that, try telling it to a guy who overthinks every situation). The second is the more important reason why. If a girl has had premarital sex, then her morals are different than my own (it may only be a slight difference or it may be a major difference, hard to tell from that one act alone). If her morals are different from mine, I doubt very much whether we would ever click as far as love is concerned, mainly because this idea of a certain kind of morality and moral fortitude is important to me.
I would never presume to know what's right for you. But I would ask you this question. Do you have a problem with swearing? Taking the Lord's name in vain? Lying? Would you date someone who had ever done any of those things or would you consider that person morally lacking?
I think that too much emphasis today is placed on sexual activity. I am a fairly conservative person in my own life. I don't drink or smoke. I rarely swear. I don't ever break the law. When I finish graduate school, I want to work as a teacher and raise children while married. I think of myself as a traditional person with high moral standards. However, you wouldn't consider dating me because of my past sexual experience. I think that is your right but I also think you could miss out on some really great people.
One final thought, you mention you are insecure about the comparisons. I don't know what your standards are exactly but if you have ever made out with someone or engaged in other intimate behaviors, do you think you will constantly being comparing your future wife to these others? If not, why do you think because it is sex on not some other form of intimacy that the comparisons will be overwhelming. Personally, I would be much more fearful that my spouse found someone in their past to be more romantic, or more fun, or more interesting than more sexually satisfying. The best sex partner ever is no where near the top of my list of qualities important in a spouse and I doubt it would be in your future wife's either.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:So in my other thread, I was talking about not wanting to date people who had had premarital sex. I was told at that point that I was being judgmental and should stop being so.
I guess I'd argue with this point. That last statement is unbelievably judgemental in and of itself. What is judgemental about deciding not to date people who'd had premarital sex? It's a decision on how you will act, not a personal commentary on those who have so engaged.
Thing is, there's a difference between dating someone (evaluating them as a potential life-mate) and being friends or just plain liking them. If you'd said "I won't associate with people who've had premarital sex.", I'd think you were narrowing your field of community too tightly. But you didn't say that. You said you wouldn't date someone who'd had premarital sex. It's expressing a personal preference for who you might possibly like to spend the rest of your life with. How is this different from saying you won't date someone who smokes? Or someone who is morbidly obese? Or someone who belongs to a different church? Or someone who is chronically unemployed?
In other words, you're making a value judgement, and I don't see anything wrong with it, especially when it is directly related to your personal happiness and does not infringe directly on the happiness of others.
additing: I also wanted to add that it's great to have dating guidelines, but I found I was surprised that while the guidelines were good, violating them wasn't the end of the world. After a failed marriage, I wanted to marry someone close to my own age, who had a very happy stable childhood. That didn't turn out to be true with my husband, and it's been fine. He's turned out to be a wonderful husband, and I wouldn't change him or our marriage for the world.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Someone may bring up (if they read my other topic) the fact that I am no longer friends really with an old female friend of mine due in part to the issue of premarital sex. I'd assume someone would make the argument that since I don't judge my male friends harshly, why should I the females? My response is that our friendship dissolved not over the issue of premarital sex but over the issue of honesty (or rather lack thereof). She said and did things in one way (even before she really knew my own positions on these things, since with friends I tend not to discuss it as much), but then she flip flopped later on (and basically flipped out on me for pointing it out to her). So yeah. I could easily have female friends who have had premarital sex as long as they were honest from the start.
You mentioned in that thread that she had just broken up with her boyfriend. While honesty is something that definitely needs to be valued in relationships, I don't think you handled things very well as her friend. She was obviously going through a rough time and the last thing she needed was one of her friends judging her for her decisions. She could have truthfully held her belief in abstinence and then her beliefs changed and evolved into something different. People change, I'm sure you're a much different person than you were 5 years ago.
The best way of showing your friendship is by being there when times are rough. It seems to me as if your decision to stop being friends with her stemmed not from the fact that she was dishonest, but from the fact that you may have considered her a potential love interest "up until the point she had sex".
I could be totally wrong, but I think there might have been a bit more to it than her being hypocritical or changing her mind. If one of my friends told me they were Republican and then went ahead and voted for a Democrat and said they were Democrats from then on I wouldn't end my friendship with them, it really wouldn't matter because it doesn't affect me. How was her decision any different? (not trying to put you on the spot or anything, I'm just trying to understand)
Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by theresa51282: I would never presume to know what's right for you. But I would ask you this question. Do you have a problem with swearing? Taking the Lord's name in vain? Lying? Would you date someone who had ever done any of those things or would you consider that person morally lacking?
I try to avoid swearing myself, only doing it when I'm at the end of my rope (like if everything seems to be falling apart around me). I have problems with lying very much, in fact I try not to lie if at a possible (on my personality test from my psychologist, I tested around the same as a Baptist minister because I said that I rarely lie and other such things). Taking the Lord's name in vain is a lesser thing in my opinion, but it'd still be something I'd avoid. Would I date someone who had done these things? Some of them yes, some of them no. Swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain are more minor to me. Lying is a lot worse. I think there's some degree of leniency.
quote:I think that too much emphasis today is placed on sexual activity. I am a fairly conservative person in my own life. I don't drink or smoke. I rarely swear. I don't ever break the law. When I finish graduate school, I want to work as a teacher and raise children while married. I think of myself as a traditional person with high moral standards. However, you wouldn't consider dating me because of my past sexual experience. I think that is your right but I also think you could miss out on some really great people.
Well see you bring up the thing that causes me doubt at times, in myself, in my beliefs, in everything. At times, I worry that there may be someone out there who is perfect for me who just slightly falls out of what I've set as standards, and I'll reject them because of that. So yeah, I do have doubt there.
quote:One final thought, you mention you are insecure about the comparisons. I don't know what your standards are exactly but if you have ever made out with someone or engaged in other intimate behaviors, do you think you will constantly being comparing your future wife to these others? If not, why do you think because it is sex on not some other form of intimacy that the comparisons will be overwhelming. Personally, I would be much more fearful that my spouse found someone in their past to be more romantic, or more fun, or more interesting than more sexually satisfying. The best sex partner ever is no where near the top of my list of qualities important in a spouse and I doubt it would be in your future wife's either.
Thanks for adding new worries to my list. To be totally honest, I've never made out or been in any "intimate behaviors." I've only had a few girlfriends in my life, and they have always been sort of cold and distant (which is why the relationship has fallen apart). I have had other opportunities to do such behaviors, but I haven't taken them since they've always seemed the wrong thing to do (at least in those situations). So yeah, with any intimate behavior, I will probably have insecurity, although I think the sex thing worries me more than the others (not sure why, it may be societal focus on sex or something). As for the other part about more romantic/more fun/more interesting, yeah, you've added more worries to my list. Those are things that I hadn't thought about as much, which just adds more concern.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Pfresh, these are some thoughts I had when you posted the thread about your friend earlier, but I never got around to typing them.
I think THE biggest problem with the idea of “we’re engaged now, so it’s okay” among people who plan on only sleeping with one person in their lifetime is what it does to the persons’ mental and emotional state when/if the fiancé calls it off.
I’m going to describe this with specific genders, since that’s how I’ve seen it happen. It could just as well happen with the genders reversed.
The couple gets engaged. The young woman considers it a central part of her moral code that she is “saving” sex for the man she marries. Her fiancé convinces her to have sex with him, and she gives in, because they’re engaged. This goes on for months, maybe a year, and then he breaks up with her.
In the middle of grieving the breakup, she is also confronted with the fact that her moral code (as far as sex is concerned) is shot. She hung her moral hat on the idea that she would only have sex with one man, and she believed that all her actions had been consistent with that intent. Suddenly that’s not going to happen and there’s nothing she can do about it.
She has to re-conceptualize her moral code in a way that isn’t dependant on saving her virginity for the man she marries. And, from what I’ve seen, there’s almost always a period of floundering while she tries to figure it out. She may come to the conclusion that she’s already a “bad person” according to what she believes, so what she does now doesn’t matter. She may try desperately to rationalize what happened, which may involve changes from what she’s claimed to believe in the past. She may eventually decide to go back to sexual abstinence, or she may not.
In the case of your friend, I think it’s unfortunate that you decided that you could no longer be friends with her while she was (possibly) going through a time of grieving and confusion. I highly doubt she intended to lie to you or that she is being a hypocrite. She is likely just trying to find her way in a situation she wouldn’t have chosen had she been able to see the future.
Moral of the story: If you are saving sex for marriage, engaged does not count.
Moral for pfresh: Give your friend the benefit of the doubt. She likely is torn up enough about the situation without you accusing her of dishonesty on top of it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Rico: You mentioned in that thread that she had just broken up with her boyfriend. While honesty is something that definitely needs to be valued in relationships, I don't think you handled things very well as her friend. She was obviously going through a rough time and the last thing she needed was one of her friends judging her for her decisions. She could have truthfully held her belief in abstinence and then her beliefs changed and evolved into something different. People change, I'm sure you're a much different person than you were 5 years ago.
The best way of showing your friendship is by being there when times are rough. It seems to me as if your decision to stop being friends with her stemmed not from the fact that she was dishonest, but from the fact that you may have considered her a potential love interest "up until the point she had sex".
I could be totally wrong, but I think there might have been a bit more to it than her being hypocritical or changing her mind. If one of my friends told me they were Republican and then went ahead and voted for a Democrat and said they were Democrats from then on I wouldn't end my friendship with them, it really wouldn't matter because it doesn't affect me. How was her decision any different? (not trying to put you on the spot or anything, I'm just trying to understand)
Well you're right and wrong with that middle paragraph. For one, she had had sex before I ever met her and befriended her. As for me having a love interest in her, it did happen, but it really was a post-break up thing. In regards to not being supportive after the break up, it's hard to say. I was the one she called and talked to and stuff after it happened. I took her out and tried to make her feel better. None of it was done in date manner; it was just like any other thing we had done. She became somewhat self-destructive though. She started smoking (which she hadn't done before), she drank heavily (she drank before, but it was always lighter), and she started just being more slutty (although slutty seems a strong word). I tried for a week or two to talk her out of these things, but she's as stubborn as I am about stuff and she had her mind set on these things. Our friendship broke up really when she started talking about sleeping around, when I asked her not to talk about that with me, and when she snapped at me and basically said every hurtful thing she could to me (I can go into details if you like). The sort of dishonesty that happened and then this sort of explosion just made a big breach, and it just hasn't been repaired.
The politics example isn't a good one. I am a Republican, but I could see times where I would vote Democrat or even third party, depending on the circumstances. With morals though, I have one set of morals, and there are basically no circumstances which will make me violate them.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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But didn't you say you swore at the end of your rope? Doesn't that also violate your moral code? I think everyone violates their moral codes sometimes. I certianly don't always live up to the person that I strive to be. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to uphold your standards but you also shouldn't beat yourself up over failing occasionally either. I think you should date the people who you feel are right for you but I find with myself that hard and fast rules hardly ever work when evaluating potential dates.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:. I mean if the girl has had premarital sex, she'll be more experienced and so forth, which is enough to make a guy nervous
Please take this as non-judgementally as possible, but could you explain why an experienced partner would make you nervous? I don't follow.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I can guess why an experienced partner would make him feel nervous, but not necessarily why the nervousness would make him not want to be her friend.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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In regards to theresa's comments, I never said I was perfect. I do swear when I'm at the end of my rope, so therefore I'm not being as moral as I could be. I'm not perfect, and I'm not saying anyone should be (particularly in regards to some of these minor things where a lot of people slip up).
As for ambyr's question, I'd prefer not to get into details. It may be a guy thing (or it may just be a me thing), but there's always a concern about performance. If she is experienced, she may expect a certain level of performance, and I may or may not be able to provide that seeing as how I'm inexperienced and all.
EDIT: I never said this whole premarital sex thing was in regards to friendship. I thought I made that clear in my original post. This is all in regards to dating and relationships and such.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: She became somewhat self-destructive though. She started smoking (which she hadn't done before), she drank heavily (she drank before, but it was always lighter), and she started just being more slutty (although slutty seems a strong word).
A question: was she being "slutty" towards you, who saw yourself as a potential love interest, or towards someone else?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Not towards me but towards several others. Of course I didn't witness this, I heard it from her (because it was what she was gushing about) and from her friends (who I'm not sure why told me).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: I think THE biggest problem with the idea of “we’re engaged now, so it’s okay” among people who plan on only sleeping with one person in their lifetime is what it does to the persons’ mental and emotional state when/if the fiancé calls it off.
I would disagree. Not that I don't think it's a big problem; I absolutely do, and I agree with you on almost all of that post. I just happen to have seen a worse scenario. (IMO)
In the case I knew of, the couple (both devout Catholics) waited until they were engaged, but only just. Their engagement was somewhat rocky, and for a while it looked like they would call it off (her more than him, I think). But they did end up getting married, and I think a large part of why was that they didn't (either of them, but especially her) want to be in the situation you described.
The marriage only lasted a couple years. Apparently while she wasn't willing to have slept with someone she didn't marry, she was ok with having multiple online boyfriends, including one she planned to meet in person. (At which point her then-spouse walked out.)
So, yeah, I can think of worse scenarios.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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LIsten...the bottom line is that EVERY decision regarding a relationship with another person requires judgment calls. If there was no judgment required then there would be no way of limiting/distinguishing between options.
It is one thing to say "no sex" as you have, in context of your own life and what you want. It is another to use your personal morals to try and "prove" that you are right and that others should follow your lead. A lot of people seem to have a problem with a person setting standards in this regard because a lot of times the people with those "higher" standards try to impose those morals on others.
Keep in mind that while sex is important in a relationship, it isn't the end all be all of the relationship. If you found a woman who was perfect for you in every way BUT that, it might not seem like such a big deal. I am not saying that you would date someone you would consider a slut, but if this person had had sex with one other person it might not seem like a big deal....and if it still did then perhaps there would be a problem with your stance.
Also, a lot of this has to do wiht your age, no offence intended. If a woman is 16 and has slept with 3 guys, well......but take that same sexual history and make the woman 30 and it is a whole different ballgame. Same thing with a man...3 partners is a lot at 15 (to most of us, anyway) but not at 30...
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:It is one thing to say "no sex" as you have, in context of your own life and what you want. It is another to use your personal morals to try and "prove" that you are right and that others should follow your lead. A lot of people seem to have a problem with a person setting standards in this regard because a lot of times the people with those "higher" standards try to impose those morals on others.
Sex is not simply a personal choice, however. There are at least two major reasons why an individual's decision to have sex concerns society as a whole.
The first and probably most critical reason is because it always involves the potential life a new human being - the child that could be concieved by the act. That unconcieved child cannot speak for himself of course, so it is society's role to discourage creating such children in the wrong circumstances, since doing otherwise would risk becoming a society that cannot raise its youth - or a society that has too many abortions.
The second and nevertheless still important reason is because every individual's decision on sex (or other personal matters) impacts society's values as a whole. If I decide to have sex, it will in some small part increase the possibility that your child or other children will come to think that they too need to have sex to be normal. This is also the case for many moral issues that, though seemingly personal, end up impacting the future of society - which is why some groups are so intent on changing attitudes about them.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: It is one thing to say "no sex" as you have, in context of your own life and what you want. It is another to use your personal morals to try and "prove" that you are right and that others should follow your lead. A lot of people seem to have a problem with a person setting standards in this regard because a lot of times the people with those "higher" standards try to impose those morals on others.
It's also true that, if a person decides that they will participate in sex outside the confines of marriage, that they should not use their morals to adversely judge someone who does not. It goes both ways.
In other words, it gets tiring to be called a prude or lesbian just because I won't sleep with this man or that or told that I should just have that drink already because it's expected and everyone else is doing it and if I don't, I could lose my job. No, in fact, not everyone is doing it, and even if they were, I still have the right to make a decision that's right for me.
Understand that I'm talking about real life, not people on this forum. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lose your job over not having a drink? That's crazy. I hope to never fall into that situation.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I used to say I wouldn't date a fellow who had had sex. I was aving myself, and expected the same restraint from potential mates. Plus, I got a kick out of calling them 'sluts'. ( )
Enter Ron. He met all of my other criteria, but the summer before we met, he had worked at Kroger. The National Billboard Model for Coppertone Tanning products always came through his line when she bought groceries. This woman was on BILBOARDS all over the country, in a bikini. She was thirty, he was seventeen. She started calling him, taking him out to eat, fooling around. He lasted maybe a month not going all the way.
It must've been like shooting fish in a barrel.
Anyway, by the time he told me about it, I was smitten. He was everything on my list, except a virgin. (He told me the story one day after saying I was the prettiest girl he'd ever dated. When I recoiled in horror wondering what the heck was wrong with him that he hadn't dated girls much prettier than me, he told me about the model. Heh. I can only assume he was talking faces, or he was already in love. )
In any case, to say I do not regret not dumping him is an understatement. I've often wished I could find that woman, and send her a heartfelt thank-you note. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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For friends and associates, it is kind of judgemental to cut people off because their choices.
For someone you are dating, though, that's off. Because when you are dating someone, you don't have to be egalitarian. It's not wrong to be picky. If you honestly feel a certain way, then it's better to stick with that. Everyone will be happier.
I agree with dkw that engaged and monogamous does not count. Waiting until you are married means being married first.
For me it matters less of what he did/was before as opposed to what is does/is now.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: So in my other thread, I was talking about not wanting to date people who had had premarital sex. I was told at that point that I was being judgmental and should stop being so.
I was the one who called you judgmental, but it was not for the reason that you cite. I am completely sympathetic to you wanting to date people with similar moral views to yourself. In the thread in question, you said "I wouldn't associate myself with such people." Such people being those that have no problem with premarital sex. That is what I took issue with.
Pfresh, I think it's wonderful that you have a strong moral code and that you want somebody else who shares that same moral code. Earlier in this post, you mentioned religious decisions that you've made. If you don't want to go into them, don't. But if you would be willing to, I am curious as to what exactly you believe.
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I'll be honest. In my experience, virtuous young men become bitter when newly single and sexually-experienced women they've befriended start engaging in sexual behavior with men other than themselves for reasons that have nothing to do with virtue.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Well the wording was wrong on that one. I get bad about that sometimes. I mean one thing, but when I put it into words it can come out as something different. If I was that judgmental, I probably wouldn't have many friends at this point.
I'm not sure what exactly you're referencing with the religious decisions, but I'll just explain what I think it was referring to. This may get kind of boring, so if you aren't interested, skip it. Also, it's becoming a chronology of sorts as I type it, so it may be more boring yet.
So when I was young (probably when I was 4 or so), my brother and I went to some church type stuff with neighbors of ours (both of our families were good friends, so it worked). It really wasn't church service though, more of just like trying to teach kids about the Bible and such (in fact, my brother and I both won trophies in a sort of quiz contest about certain parts of the Bible).
Shortly after this period, we moved into a new house, and one of our neighbors went to a church which he said was really good (it was Baptist as well, which is what we were). So our whole family started going to this church. In fact, that was the point in my life where I was most religiously active (went to the activities + service on Wednesdays and Sunday School + morning service + evening service on Sundays).
Around the age of 9 (almost 10 really), we moved again, this time out of state. In the first few years we were here, we tried every Baptist church in our area (or at least all of them except the really huge one since the size of it intimidated all of us). My brother never really seemed to care for it, so he stopped going after a while (at one point, he'd sit in the car listening to the radio while we were in there). My mother after going to a few of these churches decided she didn't want to go anymore, mainly because she felt the people were being sort of oppressive (in that they wanted to talk to you before and after church and at times wanted to come visit you at home, which my mother really hates). Around this time, I got partly fed up with the churches or rather the people in them. I was seeing a lot of hypocrisy, which really bothered me at that age. People seemed to be just paying lip service to the church, and it just didn't sit well with me. I decided around that time that I'd distance myself from the church. I felt that they (churches/organized religion) didn't have a right to tell me what was right/wrong when there was hypocrisy and flagrant rule breaking in their midst.
So this was about age 10 or 11. I wasn't an ignorant kid at this time by any means (meaning I knew what sex was and such, even before the general sex ed lecture that was given to us in 4th and 5th grade). At some point around this time, I reached a conclusion that the right thing to do was to fall in love, get engaged (or at least plan to get married), and then you could have sex. I'm not sure what guided this idea, but it seemed right at the time. So I guess I was more lenient back then. Of course it could have just been me distancing myself from the church, saying once more "You don't know what's right for me when you have problems of your own." I don't know.
Hormones kicked in around 13, which was first year of middle school for me. As I said in my first post, I can recall all sorts of stuff in those days. I remember guys daring other guys to "fall" on certain girls who had "developed." Kind of stupid, immature stuff. At 14/15, I had a girlfriend, although as I said before she was sort of distant. In fact, I think we had only one true date (a dance at the school in the spring). So with that distance, there really was no intimate behaviors of any kind. Part of me was frustrated with that (I was a hormone-filled teenager, so what can I say), but the other part was okay with it (since I figured that it would happen when it would). The distance thing did cause us to break up though after that dance, just because neither of us was getting anything out of the relationship (other than I guess being able to say we had a girlfriend/boyfriend).
From age 16 on or so, I didn't interact much with the opposite sex in a romantic sense, it was always friends. That bothered me slightly (particularly when you see all these couples around you and such), but once more I figured it would happen when it would. All sorts of crap happened in high school though. Obviously kids were having sex, just based on rumors and the occasional girl getting pregnant. There was also other things like when photos got passed around the school of two girls from my grade having sex with two other girls near the school (or at least that's how it seemed based on the background of said photos). So I mean I knew there was sex going on; I'd have been stupid not to. I tried not to pay much attention to it.
At 17 or so, I started shifting into a more conservative mind set. A lot of stuff happened that year, so it's hard to pinpoint one particular thing as causing this shift. In fact, I can't say I'm positive why it happened. I think it was partly I was disgusted by some of the stuff I heard secondhand. Part of it was that I felt fairly isolated. Two reasons for that: 1) I was never part of any one group, and so I always felt like the outcast in any group of friends (because I may be friends with one or two people but not know any of the rest), and 2) Many of them were (not sure what word to use here) being more "normal" I guess (meaning some might be smoking pot, some might be drinking, others might be having sex, etc., none of which is stuff I do).
It's hard to explain really. I know that in my senior year of high school (so age 18/19 for me) I had been more conservative than before. I went to the engagement thing as far as sex went. In fact when prom came around I was really bothered. I got a date (there was a kind of cute girl I knew had a crush on me, so it wasn't too difficult), which was good I guess. As soon as I got a date though, I had many male friends saying all sorts of things. Off the top of my head, I was told that I should go to an afterparty thing with her to drink, that chances were high I could have sex (which seemed always to be followed by "dude, you need to get laid" to be blunt), and that this would all be a great thing. I really didn't feel that way myself. In fact after prom, my date (and her friend + her friend's date) invited me to an afterparty and I declined to go just because I didn't feel comfortable about the situation.
My first year of college was last year (so 19 in the fall, 20 in the spring). I got pretty disgusted with people during this year. I know for a fact (trust me on it, please) that one of my roommates was having sex and with a different girl almost every week. On top of this, I see girls dressing more provactively, I hear all sorts of things, and I get told all sorts of things (by my friends, my brother, etc.). At some point, I came to the conclusion that the word love was tossed around too easily (in regards to relationships and in regards to sex), that people were being too promiscuous, and that I wasn't going to have any part of that.
So you may say, well that's all well and good, but what brought religion back into it? I'm not sure there either. It may have just been my gradual breakdown. Last spring, I was falling apart slowly. I had basically no friends, no family (at least not to be around since they are about 4 hours away from me), and I just felt like I was totally alone. I also felt pretty hopeless about my situation in life. I knew what I wanted, and to me it seemed like there was no way life was going to let me have it (whether I struggled to get it or not).
The whole thing with my female friend in May/June was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back. Something about the situation made me doubt everything about myself. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with myself, I wasn't sure if what I believed and was doing was right, and I just felt a lot of conflicting opinions (one of them being the idea that I want sex but I also want to wait until marriage, which isn't a contradiction really but a fairly large problem no doubt).
With this breakdown and my whole self doubt thing, I started seeing a psychologist. I don't think it really helped me as much as it could have, but it did give me time to pull myself together. I went back and tried to determine why I thought certain things. I sort of re-evaluated my whole system of beliefs and reaffirmed them. At the same time, my depression/angst/whatever was still fairly high. I guess I fell back on religion at this point (although this may have been facilitated by the psychologist's recommendation). I felt that at least it sort of agreed with me about basic moral issues, and maybe it would bring back some of my faith in the idea that things will work out and it will happen when it will. Has it done that? I don't know. I still feel very isolated and sort of hopeless, but at least I don't doubt myself as much. I at least feel like I'm right in my decisions, even if I am unhappy and alone.
Sorry about the length of this post. I just had a lot to say, I guess. I probably have more to say, but I should spare you guys.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'll be honest. In my experience, virtuous young men become bitter when newly single and sexually-experienced women they've befriended start engaging in sexual behavior with men other than themselves for reasons that have nothing to do with virtue.
I was bitter before though, Tom. I just was more bitter afterwards. Plus I wouldn't have sex with her if she had thrown herself at me (which was a scenario that sort of came up). You may be partially right, Tom, but I don't think you're fully right.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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For what it's worth, you strike me as someone who's trying very hard to be a good and decent person, and you deserve credit for that. I'm mainly just poking you, not because I think you're repressed or stuck up but because I think there's a tendency among some people to fall back on faith when they've actually got a decent moral underpinning that's both more sensible and more practical for them.
I think it's helpful to have the thought, "I don't like the way you behave around other men because I think it's destructive and I'm a little bit jealous and afraid of it," and less helpful to have the thought, "I don't like your behavior because my church says it's bad." When you do the former, it makes me happy. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Frisco- clearly "craving myself" is the correct interpretation in this context. She didn't want some sex-hungry man because she was only after herself, and playing hard to get, at that.
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think it's helpful to have the thought, "I don't like the way you behave around other men because I think it's destructive and I'm a little bit jealous and afraid of it," and less helpful to have the thought, "I don't like your behavior because my church says it's bad." When you do the former, it makes me happy.
First, thanks for saying the first part of your post. It at least makes me feel like you aren't trying to tear me apart. With regards to the other part, I think when I talked to my female friend it was more of the former than the latter. In fact, I don't know if I've used the phrase "my church" in my arguments. *shrugs* Oh well.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Tres, I think that you are so wrong that I can't even begin to say what I find wrong with your post. Your post about that is OK in theory, but in pratical situations it doesn't work at all.
I don't think it is societies business to worry (or legislate) who I sleep with, or don't. I can see why you might disagree, but I am adamante anout that. No one has the right to tell me how to sleep with someone, or if I should at all, or how often. They can suggest, advise, whatever, but when push comes to shove once I am in the bedrooom it falls under "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.".
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pfresh- Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you've been surrounding yourself with groups that not only can't fill your needs, but also pressure you to do things you don't want to do. There are plenty of groups that won't put that pressure on you and there are also plenty of groups where people don't smoke, do drugs, or even consider having sex before marraige. The LDS church is one example. There are also several very active religious communities at UTD. I'm curious as to whether your current religious community fulfills your spiritual and social needs. If not, you might consider looking into another church that would. Clearly, this is none of my business and I don't know if that solution would truly meet your needs. But I think the attitude of "it happens when it happens", can be very dangerous in all areas of life. Things don't happen until you make them happen.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Well see that's where it sort of falls apart for me. I'm somewhat like my mother in that I don't like people talking to me about religion and such (that may be vague and the wrong way to put it, but it's how it first came to mind). I feel uncomfortable talking about it and I feel sort of oppressed (may be too strong of a word, same idea though). So with that, I don't really like church groups as much. I haven't attended a church service since I was a 11 or 12, and in fact until recently I really hadn't even considered it. I don't know if going to another church (like the LDS church) or joining a religious group on campus will help me or not. I just know that at the moment it makes me feel uncomfortable. Whether this is just because of the religion stuff I just talked about or whether it's just another manifestation of my social anxiety is hard to say.
On another note, Amanecer, I didn't see you Tuesday or Thursday in class. Did you drop the class or just not go or what? It was kind of disappointing to not have someone to discuss the boringness of lectures with. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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As someone who has been known to experience a lot of anxiety from social interactions, I certainly can relate to how hard it can be to feel alone. The thing that did the most to help me was to join an organization. It doesn't have to be religious but something that you enjoy doing and where the group of people is relatively small and stable. You will be able to make friends and through making friends might even form a romance. I met my fiance through the debate team. I know debate probably makes it sound like I don't have social anxiety but trust me I do. I just have anxiety in a very specific context.
Another great benefit is it really helps make school fun and worthwhile. It gives you a chance to explore something further than just in a classroom. Most campuses have 100s of options to choose from. In my experience, if you pick an activity that is more academic in nature you are also more likely to meet people who won't pressure you to drink or have sex.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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Well my social anxiety is sort of specific as well. See I do well in one-on-one situations and at least somewhat well when speaking to large groups of people (like if I've had to prepare a speech or something). It's in the small groups that I get anxious. Even classes are like this to some extent. It's one of the reasons I try to get out of my classes as soon as possible. Being around the group of people is draining in and of itself.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Join the club. I LOVE public speaking. However, don't make me be in a group of people I don't know. I just can't deal. I get really worked up. I also am terrible at 1 on 1 interactions with someone I don't know. I have on multiple occasions left a grocery store without what I went for because I got so nervous about talking to the store clerk. And I never answer my phone if I don't know who it is calling because I get really nervous that I won't know what to say. The list goes on. For me at least, getting to know a group of people well really helped. It gave me a group of friends I could rely on. And when they were around I was less prone to freaking out about things that normally would scare me.
If you are anything like me, you might enjoy having a group if you got to know them well enough. It became like hanging out with my 7 closest friends so it was impossible for me to remain nervous. I was super uptight and nervous the first month or so that I joined but I got so much better and I am soooo glad I stuck with it.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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Well I know from past experience that even around groups of friends I feel sort of awkward and it's draining. In high school, I had one group of friends that liked to hang out and play board games (like chess, Risk, Axis & Allies, etc.). They used to invite me all the time (since these were all people I had known for a year or more). I went one time, and it was just not pleasant. For every bit of fun I had, there were probably 3 or 4 bits of stress/anxiety. So all times after that when I was invited, I would turn down the invitation and instead just stay in my room.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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pfresh- I didn't drop the class. On Tuesday, the class before that one went over. There had been a mix up with my group's project and we had to work it out with the teacher. So I would have been very late to History, and decided it would be best just not to go. And then I enjoyed missing it so much that I decided to miss it on Thursday too. I don't think his lectures add even a little bit to my education, and they really don't seem important to grades. But, yeah, I'll come on Tuesday so as to not be a bum. Sorry you had to suffer without me. :-P
As for the other subject, I think that new situations and especially new people are always uncomfortable. But if you don't do something new, then nothing changes.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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You didn't miss much. Tuesday was a lecture by a librarian about how to use databases (*yawn*) and Thursday was just a lecture on the history of teaching history (which seems sort of an odd topic to spend an hour and fifteen minutes on). *shrugs* Oh well.
I understand that it always feels uncomfortable, but the level is what bothers me. I'm tightly wound and overly stressed by myself. Put me in an uncomfortable situation where my mind can overanalyze everything going on and my stress just goes up exponentially. I've said it before: I think someone needs to clobber me over the head to turn off my brain for a while. It doesn't do me too much good.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I'm glad, however, you realize that what works for you won't work for everyone.
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To be totally honest, I've never made out or been in any "intimate behaviors." I've only had a few girlfriends in my life, and they have always been sort of cold and distant (which is why the relationship has fallen apart). I have had other opportunities to do such behaviors, but I haven't taken them since they've always seemed the wrong thing to do (at least in those situations). So yeah, with any intimate behavior, I will probably have insecurity, although I think the sex thing worries me more than the others (not sure why, it may be societal focus on sex or something). As for the other part about more romantic/more fun/more interesting, yeah, you've added more worries to my list. Those are things that I hadn't thought about as much, which just adds more concern.
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just because I won't sleep with this man or that or told that I should just have that drink already because it's expected and everyone else is doing it and if I don't, I could lose my job. No, in fact, not everyone is doing it, and even if they were, I still have the right to make a decision that's right for me.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
Lose your job over not having a drink? That's crazy. I hope to never fall into that situation.
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