posted
I've been reading a lot about poverty lately. One thing that becomes abundantly clear quickly is that the definition of poverty is pretty gray, to say the least.
Instead of trying to define it with dollar amounts, I thought it might be a good idea to describe a minimum acceptable standard of living. I'm not going for minimum needed to live. I'm looking at what is needed to allow someone full participation in American society.
For now, I'd like to do it for the U.S. or other developed nations. I'm looking for a point where we could say, "this person/family has a standard of living such that outside help is not needed." I realize that this standard would be considerd wealthy in many nations; international development is something I'd like to keep separate.
Here are my initial thoughts:
Shelter: for a single person, an efficiency apartment with full bath, galley kitchen, and sleeping/living area, or two people sharing a two bedroom apartment off a galley kitchen/living area (less square ft per person, I'd think). For families, a master bedroom, one bedroom per two children, a kitchen, an eating area, and 1 or two living spaces depending on family size. Enough heat to keep it at least 70 in the winter. AC to keep it at 80 in the summer. Windows in the main room and each bedroom. Good, safe water and sewage, electric lights and outlets per code. Appliances basic - 2 or four burner stove depending on family size, oven, sink, disposal, basic fridge/freezer. No TV/cable needed. Preferably intermixed with non-minimal housing.
Medical care: immunizations, recomended regular checkups, emergency care, necessary prescriptions, dental checkups and cleanings. We could have a whole thread on this.
Education & Child care: free from preschool through 12th grade, 45 hours total of school plus child care. Books and supplies included. Possibly a computer and an internet hookup, especially if we can leverage that expectation into some cost savings w/ school admin. Vocational training. Assistance programs for college, but loans are OK as long as the payment schedule is realistic. Good accessible libraries - maybe the internet could help here.
Clothing: functional and durable but not particularly fashionable. Not ugly, just not something that "needs" to be replaced every year. Jeans, chinos, polo shirts, shorts, sneakers, work shoes, plus what's needed for work.
Food: good, wholesome food. OK to require preparation (dry beans, fresh meat and produce v. canned ravioli). Include room for some treats, but in general we're going for healthy and tasty.
Transportation: if good public transportation, no car needed. Otherwise, basic car that can carry family plus gas.
Free time: for sickness, maternity. 2 days a week. 2 weeks vacation. (I'd like to add one parent full time at home if desired for kids younger than age X, but this can be discussed.)
I'm sure I've left things out. My thought is that if we could, as a society, decide on this, we could then better face questions about what constitutes a living wage, which services are better provided by private industry and which by government, welfare eligibility, etc.
Any thoughts?
P.S., I'd like to exclude discussion of where this comes from for now - it's not about welfare at this point, just defining.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Um, I'm at work so I only have time to say that my first apartment after marrying Jon Boy did not have a garbage disposal in the sink, and we did okay. Of course, a disposal was one of the things we distinctly looked for in our next apartment.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I'm thinking of it more for other tenants than the people in th apartment. It really can prevent smells and more expensive maintenance problems.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Dags, you realize this will depend a LOT on local cost-of-living, which varies greatly by region, neh?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Are you distinguishing between people that have these things or people that can afford these things?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:immunizations, recomended regular checkups, emergency care, necessary prescriptions, dental checkups and cleanings
And prenatal care for pregnant women and a hospital or well-equipped birthing center nearby for deliveries.
quote:Education & Child care: free from preschool through 12th grade
I think that we should be working toward a one-parent-works standard. (Either parent working being okay.) For that reason, I think preschool is not a necessity. Neither is after-school child care. However, if a family's income is such that both parents need to work, resources for cheap and good child care should be available.
I agree that a garbage disposal is not necessary. However, I think families over a certain size do need a dishwasher (because sinks fill up fast when you're feeding 6 people) and clothes washer/dryer (because you end up doing at least 2 loads every day after the third kid or so.) (Everyone else, access to on-site REASONABLY PRICED coin laundry will suffice.)
Trash pickup should be at least once a week; there needs to be enough space in the garbage cans for trash for people living in the building for the maximum time that it ever goes without being picked up. (This is a problem at our building; we have 10 resident families and one small dumpster, no recycling pickup so people tend to have larger trash outputs than if there was recycling pickup, and it gets to be a real problem sometimes.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Dags, you realize this will depend a LOT on local cost-of-living, which varies greatly by region, neh?
That's why I don't want to tie to dollars but rather what the standard of living should be.
quote:Are you distinguishing between people that have these things or people that can afford these things?
People who can afford them but use the money for "bad" things (drugs and alcohol being the obvious example) are a different matter. Let's just focus on "If a family of N has the following things, their material needs are met."
We can focus on how to make sure they get them after we figure out what they are. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:And prenatal care for pregnant women and a hospital or well-equipped birthing center nearby for deliveries.
Yes, absolutely. I kind of brushed by medical care, but meant recomended checkups to include it.
quote:I agree that a garbage disposal is not necessary.
OK, let's say not necessary but a landlord might want to provide it as a cost savings measure.
quote:However, I think families over a certain size do need a dishwasher (because sinks fill up fast when you're feeding 6 people)
We didn't have a dishwasher when there were 7 of us at home. But I'm not averse to adding it.
quote:and clothes washer/dryer (because you end up doing at least 2 loads every day after the third kid or so.) (Everyone else, access to on-site REASONABLY PRICED coin laundry will suffice.)
Certainly, access to laundry facilities is a necessity I hadn't thought of.
quote:Trash pickup should be at least once a week; there needs to be enough space in the garbage cans for trash for people living in the building for the maximum time that it ever goes without being picked up.
Good point about trash.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:We didn't have a dishwasher when there were 7 of us at home. But I'm not averse to adding it.
We didn't have a dishwasher, either, and there were 6 of us at some points. But then, we had a bigger sink and more counter space than any apartment kitchen I've ever seen. I'm basing the need for a dishwasher on the fact that there are only three of us and we have trouble keeping up with dishes in the small space we have available.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Communication: Telephone service is probably necessary, preferrably one to a family, though some degree of sharing might be okay. I don't think a cell phone is a necessity, but a landline is. In addition to being important for contact with other people, it may be vital in an emergency. TV isn't necessary, but people should at least have a radio to pick up emergency broacasts.
Health: I would include some OTC medications such as painkillers, cough drops, and non-prescription allergy medications as necessary. Also, people need a place to exercise. They can go running for free, but if the neighborhood is too dangerous for a woman to go jogging, there should be some basic equipment available.
Shelter: quiet enough at night to sleep, relatively safe neighborhood.
I'm not sure this is a necessity, but it might be nice if people had the time and money to do personal enrichment type activities. For example, this summer I took a ceramics class at the local community college. It was maybe 20 hours total of class time and $45. I think opportunities like this really should be available to as many people as possible. What do you think about hobbies/leisure activities?
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Transportation: I think there is a point in family size at which public transportation becomes troublesome. I'm trying to picture myself on a bus or subway platform with 4 kids under 7 and having that be safe.
I'm thinking about this and looking at my own family. I know that somewhere in that minimal standards definition there needs to be some way to address disabilities. Having a child with disabilities throws out pretty much all the minimal requirements and adds stuff. Just a thought.
Posts: 251 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I agree on the telephone line. In CA, families under a certain income are eligible for a discount on their basic local phone service called the "lifeline" discount. This is to ensure everyone possible has access to a telephone line in case of emergency.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Landlords should have a compost drop off. No need for a disposal then, and we all benefit from reduced landfill usage.
What kq said about prenatal care,with homebirth an option. All mothers should have access to a breast pump regardless of abilty to pay.
Families should be able to keep one parent at home until their child is of mandatory school age (8 in most states).
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:I'm thinking about this and looking at my own family. I know that somewhere in that minimal standards definition there needs to be some way to address disabilities. Having a child with disabilities throws out pretty much all the minimal requirements and adds stuff. Just a thought.
Yep. For now, let's define it without taking disabilities into account and then analogize from there. For example, suitable showering facilities, accessible appliances, elevators, and the direct care items added as needed. Of course I've left out many specifics.
quote:Communication: Telephone service is probably necessary, preferrably one to a family, though some degree of sharing might be okay. I don't think a cell phone is a necessity, but a landline is. In addition to being important for contact with other people, it may be vital in an emergency. TV isn't necessary, but people should at least have a radio to pick up emergency broacasts.
Landline I'd agree with - long distance, not so much, especially with the Internet included. Cell phone is not necessary. Radio is a good idea.
quote:Health: I would include some OTC medications such as painkillers, cough drops, and non-prescription allergy medications as necessary. Also, people need a place to exercise. They can go running for free, but if the neighborhood is too dangerous for a woman to go jogging, there should be some basic equipment available.
Absolutely. I'd be lost without claritin. Access to exercise equipment not a bad idea, but I'd prefer we have safe parks.
quote:I'm not sure this is a necessity, but it might be nice if people had the time and money to do personal enrichment type activities. For example, this summer I took a ceramics class at the local community college. It was maybe 20 hours total of class time and $45. I think opportunities like this really should be available to as many people as possible. What do you think about hobbies/leisure activities?
My free time list should have included a maximum time. Add in ongoing enrichment type things to education, I think. As well as ongoing occupational training being available.
quote:Transportation: I think there is a point in family size at which public transportation becomes troublesome. I'm trying to picture myself on a bus or subway platform with 4 kids under 7 and having that be safe.
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