posted
I noticed an imdb.com news item about a high school english teacher forced to resign because he showed his class an R-rated movie without getting permission from parents or offering an opt-out option. Not sure where I stand on it, but I thought I might post it to see how much outrage fulminates among my fellow 'rackers.
Here's another story courtesy of UPI and another from the local newsrag.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Teachers show movies in class to waste time. This guy was probably doing 6 week grades.
Since a student actually likes this guy, he probably does not do much in class anyway.
quote:. "If 'First comes learning' is true, why do you get rid of the guy who holds that motto the best?" one senior in the class told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
posted
It depends on the age of the students. Grade nine, notsomuch, grade twelve (is that what they mean by senior?) should be fine. Especially if this is an advanced class!
quote:Teachers show movies in class to waste time. This guy was probably doing 6 week grades.
First of all, this is not at all true. Some of my favourite and most successful teachers have shown fragments of films, or entire films, in class to illustrate an era, a point, a story, anything related to the class.
quote: Since a student actually likes this guy, he probably does not do much in class anyway.
Many students, especially in Advanced Classes, do like school and learning and the teachers that help them there. If one of my favourite teachers or professors was fired, I'd certainly say a similar thing and be outraged.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'm kind of surprised that this would result in a forced resignation. I can see where the school would want some sort of disciplinary action, but a firing appears a little overboard.
I suspect that there is more to this than just the movie. I think that there must have been at least a little preexisting tension between the teacher and administration.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It's possible, yes, but thinking back to my own high school experience, the most popular teachers-the ones you could talk to about to other students who weren't in the same class with you-were the ones that were easy on the work-required department.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
My senior year, because of an autistic boy in my mom's 8th grade classes (that's mother was apposed to The Patriot), our school system said that all movies being shown had to have a theme along the State Sandards as printed at the DOE, and they must only show those clips. The way it was set up in my high school, teachers had to take movies to the (not so nice word) librarian, so she could approve them, and put them onto the tv for your classroom, R rated movies were entirely out of question, as were most PG-13. They couldn't use movies to waste time because they had to be stopping and starting to only show certain parts the whole time. To get around this several teachers bought (or brought in their home) VCRs and DVD players, to hook up to the TVs in their classrooms, it wasn't totally forbidden but I dont' think the Admin knew how to do it, so they figured teachers couldn't. That year I had two (supposedly)senior only classes (so yeah 12th graders, Teshi), Government actually had no seniors, and we watched The Hurricane, while discussing court sentences and the like. For speech, we had three underclassmen, and the teacher didn't want to send home a note for those three, and the rest of us were 17 or older, so could go see it on our own. One of those girls (a french exchange student), chose to leave the room, the other girl stayed, and the boy had his 18 year old brother sign a piece of paper saying he could watch the movie. It was Wag the Dog. No neither of these teachers got into trouble for that. But the speech teacher has gotten into much trouble for other things, you'll have to ask JT Stryker about that.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Jeez. My 10th grade history teacher would have been fired like lightening. He showed us "Schindler's List" all the way through and then he showed "Trading Places" to my 12th grad econ class. Heh. To demonstrate the stock market. I love it.
Yeah, he was one of those teachers that didn't do much. But I have had video-showing teachers who really were good. I'm grateful for some of the Shakespeare we watched, it really helped me to appreciate and understand it.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Last year, when my son was in the 8th grade, a teacher showed part of a movie that I felt was inappropriate. I spoke with the teacher, and told him that some parents might have a problem with that, and that in the future, I recommend getting parental permission first. I wouldn't ever try to get anyone fired over such a thing.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
My favorite teacher was the hardest calc teacher I ever had (including 4 college calculuses). He was immensely popular with the guys, not so much with the girls (because he made fun of them).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Xav, I have to agree. This was a well-respected teacher, who was reputedly one of the best. I can see it causing a stink, but to say, "Either resign or you're fired" seems more than extreme.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
All the teachers considered best at my school were not lazy teachers.
The lazy teachers were also discussed, and people took their classes for easy grades, sure, but they were discussed separately.
Friendly teachers were also discussed, and teachers from both of the above categories were so considered in almost all cases.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Fugu is right about my school, since it's the same. My favorite teacher was my orchestra teacher who kept us moving constantly, but in regular classes it was my chem teacher, the hardest class i ever had (I actually also had her for frehsman english), she explained things well, was encouraging, and related chemistry to real life. I did discuss teachers that were easy, but not in the same way.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I've shown films in class, often as a reward for pushing quickly through a lesson (leaving extra time at the end of an elective quarter) or to spark interest. We've also used films as teaching tools - our team showed 13th Warrior during a unit on Beowulf to discuss how the story was modernized and stripped of its fantasy elements. This was in 7th grade.
We always got away with showing PG-13 movies to 11-12 year olds by sending home a reverse permission slip. If you *don't* want your child watching this, please sign and return the following form. You made it very, very clear to the students that if this form wasn't returned, they would be watching the film like everyone else.
Never saw one come back. Whether they didn't make it home, or didn't make it back, I never asked.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I don't think any of our teachers ever showed rated R movies. I did see quite a few movies in school, though. In sixth grade we saw a couple of musicals, like Man of La Mancha, and several WWII movies. In high school, my Spanish teacher showed us El Norte and The Mission, both of which are fantastic.
Usually, teachers would just offer extra credit for students that would watch certain movies at home, like Henry V.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Obviously there's more to this than just what the article says.
For one, most counties in Georgia require that teachers put down on the syllabus all movies they'll be showing if they're PG-13 or R, and it's considered permission when the parent signs the syllabus. Very simple.
And this man has to have been pushing the bar for quite a while or have had some serious issues with the administration before. He may have exaggerated on the "resign or be fired", or there may be far more history here than our sensationalist media likes to report.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
We had a teacher be told to "resign or be fired" after an incedent involving bubbles, but the principal said she had been pushing the bar for quite a while. She went to her union rep, and they got her a job at a different school in the school system.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Technically speaking, it is illegal for anyone under the age of 17 to watch an R-rated movie without a parent or guardian. I don't really think the teacher qualifies as a "guardian" in this case; not if the student's actual legal guardian objects. If they can sign release forms for a student, *that's* a guardian.
So what the teacher did may have technically been illegal. I don't think one incident of this should be grounds for dismissal, but there is usually another side to every issue like this. It could have been the administration being unreasonable, sure; it could also have been the straw that broke the camel's back. No real way to know.
I *do* think that parents absolutely have the right to control what sort of content their children are exposed to by the school. The tendencies of the public schools toward paternalism concerns me greatly, having graduated from high school myself less than five years ago.
On the flip side, I grew up in a very conservative high school where certain vocal parents had made it nearly impossible for teachers to show anything that might even come close to destroying the careful shelter from reality they had constructed around their children, and I found this patently ridiculous. There's got to be a middle ground.
I think that this, like most things, is best discussed and voted on in the best democratic tradition. It would make for a highly contested compromise that doesn't make the extremists on either side happy- and that's what democracy is all about. Compromise within the demos.
Unfortunately, these days it seems like at least two special-interest groups almost immediately get involved in cases like these, and their concerns are magnified so far out of proportion to the number of people they actually represent that the voices of the demos are almost entirely drowned out.
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Don't many states make it illegal for anyone under 17 to buy tickets to or a tape of an R-rated movie?
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: There is no legal force behind the R rating.
Then why do theaters card people? I would think it would greatly boost their revenue if they let anyone in who wanted to. I was under the impression that the government required them to do so, as there doesn't seem to be any sound business reason for it.
I don't think anyone is going to argue for prosecution of an individual who "violates" the R rating; but it does seem inconsistent to apply the "No persons allowed under 17 years of age unless accompanied by a parent or guardian" so stringently to theaters but not to classrooms run by the government itself.
Whether or not it has "legal force" behind it-and I haven't the legal expertise to discuss that-it appears to be a government rule, and as such should be applied by government-run institutions like the public school system.
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I just skimmed the articles, but couldn't find a mention of what grade the class was. If he showed it to seniors they'd all be 17 or 18 anyway and could see R rated movies in theaters without a parent.
From the sound of it though, it sounds like the school had a policy for determining if movies could be shown and he didn't follow it. So it may not be so much that he showed an R movie to kids as that he didn't follow the established rules.
posted
Well, at any job if you don't follow the rules you get in trouble. I don't see why schoolteachers should be any different. Of course, if this was the first incident, firing would seem a massively excessive measure.
Posts: 1631 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
No, the government pressured the movie industry to adopt some ratings system, but the choices in what ratings system is up to the movie industry and how to implement it is up to various theaters, rental stores, retail outlets, and other people involved in movies.
Some theaters follow the R rating recommendation out of a sense of morality, some follow it to avoid criticism from community advocacy groups, some do it because children likely to sneak into R rated movies are likely to cause more mess, some do it because movie companies prefer they do it, and some don't do it.
There is no "government rule" about it.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
(not to mention that the government is not a monolith; its entirely possible for the federal gov't, or part thereof, to hold one position, while state and local governments hold very different positions. In such a case there might be a non-binding "gov't rule" by the federal gov't to do one thing, which states and localities would have no intention of following, something perfectly reasonable.)
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
In my small town we never ever got carded for R rated movies even when we were obviously underage. Only when I went away to school had I even known it was possible to be asked for an ID.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
We always had to get permission for R-rated (and even PG-13) movies. It was district policy, it was in the handbook. If someone hadn't got permission in my school, s/he would have been suspended without pay and sent to teacher training if it was a first offense, or fired for anything after. They took it very seriously.
The guy knew the rules, he should have got the permission slips.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Just in case, I never said "best", I said "popular", which are two entirely different things.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:but thinking back to my own high school experience, the most popular teachers-the ones you could talk to about to other students who weren't in the same class with you-were the ones that were easy on the work-required department.
Not in my experience. But then, I didn't get along with the really "popular" teachers.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
We are absolutely not allowed to show an R-rated movie, regardless of the students' ages.
That said, on at least one occasion I have shown an R-rated movie which I did not realize was R-rated at the time. I'm glad I didn't get caught, but I don't think I would have gotten fired for that alone.
When I taught middle school, we were supposed to get permission slips signed for PG or PG-13 movies. That seems to not be a requirement anymore at the high school level.
(What about copyright? There's a good chance that showing an R-rated movie to high school kids does not qualify as "fair use.")
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Since a student actually likes this guy, he probably does not do much in class anyway.
Although being liked by students does not mean you are a good teacher, I've found as a student that being disliked by all students is a sure sign of an ineffective teacher. In all of the classes I can remember in which the teacher was uniformly disliked, the teacher ended up being a serious drain on learning.
It should also be noted that the correlation between learning and work done in high school probably approaches zero, and could even be negative. Good teachers typically assign useful informative assignments. Poor teachers often have assignments that simply waste a large amount of time without teaching anything. Because of this, good teachers often can assign far less work and yet end up teaching far more. The least effective teachers were usually the ones that wasted students time and effort by forcing them to spend a lot of time doing things that taught them very little of value - and it was for this reason that they were disliked.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Tres, you'll have to excuse Krankykat. He worked at the same evil middle school as I did, and it traumatized us both... heh.
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: It was given the R rating for violence, nudity and sexuality. Youngblood retired from South Gwinnett last year, but returned to teach three classes part-time.
This is from the local news... I think because he was only part time and the movie had nudity in it is why he was let go. He was already retired, and sometimes returning retirees get paid a fortune to come back and teach a few classes.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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BTW Teshi, my fav class in college was History of the Cinema for the reasons you stated:
quote:Some of my favourite and most successful teachers have shown fragments of films, or entire films, in class to illustrate an era, a point, a story, anything related to the class.
posted
Darknight - that makes me feel better, probably because he's part time, he doesn't have all the same protections a full time teacher does, he can probably be fired or let go much easier. I couldn't imagine a tenured teacher being fired for one offense like this.
Not that I think it's right - I agree with many here, I think letting him go is an excessive penalty.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Possibly. Still cheaper than having a media conglomerate lay the smackdown on the school district for copyright violation.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Belle, our district has had a few part timers let go over similar things. Ours have come back as 'consultants' and they have no protections at all really.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
The deal here is that several of the wealthier counties in this area are run by very stupid people. Cobb has banned Harry Potter. Gwinnett fired a guy because a movie he showed to seniors had some incidental nudity, of a sort that appears on broadcast television in most other countries. It's like Nipplegate - let's focus on the sensational, superficial things and nobody will notice the real issues we are not dealing with effectively.
posted
I'm sure they had grounds, no question. I'm just as sure that most of the hard and fast rules that they refuse to bend for any reason, are just a way to hide behind the rules so they evade culpability for anything.
I'm also certain of the profound stupidity I mentioned before. This IS the state where the superintendant of schools tried to get the word "evolution" banned (while still teaching the theory, mind you) as a compromise with the Bible-thumpers. Like she thought they wouldn't notice if we just stopped calling it 'evolution.'
And yeah, I had a school conference today. Don't mind me. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I'm not sure I agree with the firing part but if it was part of the district policy to obtain permission or not show it at all he crossed the line.
That said parents should have the opportunity to give or decline permission for any movie PG-13 or R. And I don't agree with the reverse permission form. The kids should be required to return it signed or not watch it at all. I would be very upset if my kids were allowed to watch something I objected to and was not allowed to revoke permission for. There was a statement I read the other day somewhere (which of course I can't remember right now) where an educator was saying that the schools aren't in the business of teaching morality. If that is so then things like movies should be run by the parents of the students since many parents have moral objections to many movies.
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