quote:This IS the state where the superintendant of schools tried to get the word "evolution" banned (while still teaching the theory, mind you) as a compromise with the Bible-thumpers. Like she thought they wouldn't notice if we just stopped calling it 'evolution.'
*giggles* That is stupid. What did they suggest calling it, then?
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Icarus: among other things, lots of movie studios give special dispensation to high school/middle school/elementary school teachers to show films in class.
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We once watched (edited, mind) the movie Glory in AP U.S. History, and a couple parents put up a stink, since, edited or no, it was (*gasp*) an R-rated movie! They couldn't show it again. I was mad. That was a great movie, and the edited version had nothing offensive in it beyond the n-word (I really, really loathe that word, but it wasn't used at all gratuitously) used by some of the black soldiers in an argument.
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We watched Sarafina! in 7th grade history. Permission slips had to be returned, and the teacher stood in front of the tv and fast forwarded through the, um, "objectional" parts, then gave us a summary of what had happened so we could follow the rest of the story. Oh, and then we watched both the old and the new Romeo and Juliet in 9th grade English, and had to compare and contrast. Same deal-- permission slips and some fast-forwarding.
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It's not a violation of copyright. Showing a film in class is fair use. Just the same as my Copyright professor was allowed to play copyrighted songs in class.
When I was in high school, we watched a movie version of a Spanish novel we were reading for an advanced Spanish class. I distinctly remember sex. The teacher fast-forwarded through part of it, but not the whole scene. I do believe there was nudity. Also no permission slips. I think I was in tenth grade. As far as I know, no one made a big deal out of it.
How do you guys feel about students reading books with "R-rated" scenes in them for school?
quote:How do you guys feel about students reading books with "R-rated" scenes in them for school?
Same as the movies. Ask the parents. Only they really have the right to control that, at least until their children turn eighteen. Also, warn the kids and let them opt out and read something else if they object. No one should be forced to read something they find offensive. Free speech gives you the right to say something; it doesn't give you the right to force others to hear, or to be paid for it (which, completely off topic, is why I so object to the National Endowment for the Arts). No one should be obligated to listen.
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Does that apply only to sex or to violence as well?
I mean, Jude the Obscure has some pretty disturbing imagery. I can think of many books that are regular high school English fodder that have a disturbing section or two.
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I can't imagine a teacher ever forcing a student to read a book they weren't comfortable reading. I also think if by the time you're in high school you can't be making those decisions for yourself then someone has screwed up your upbringing.
Edit to make slightly less forceful
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quote:Does that apply only to sex or to violence as well?
When in doubt, I don't think it hurts to ask. Especially not in this hyper-sensitive and litigous era.
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quote:I can't imagine a teacher ever forcing a student to read a book they weren't comfortable reading. I also think if by the time you're in high school you can't be making those decisions for yourself then someone has really screwed up your upbringing.
I was forced to read books that made me uncomfortable. Several times.
And just because you want to read or watch something in HS doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you, or that your parents want you reading/watching it, and besides, until they're 18, it's the parents' choice, not the kids'.
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pH: showing an entire film in class is not fair use. As for the songs in class, your university, like nearly every other one in the country, likely has site licenses from the major record labels. Most universities also have site licenses from movie studios.
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Did you go up to your teacher and tell them you weren't comfortable reading it and ask them to assign you another book for that assignment?
I think one of a parent's primary responsibilities is training their children to be adults and be responsible. If, by the time your child is 14 or 15 you can't trust them to make reasonable choices about what they read then you've failed in that responsibility.
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quote:Did you go up to your teacher and tell them you weren't comfortable reading it and ask them to assign you another book for that assignment?
Yes. I was in fifth grade the first time, I explained that I was upset by the book and why, and she said, "The whole class is reading it, if you don't finish it and do the work you won't make better than a C this semester."
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quote:If, by the time your child is 14 or 15 you can't trust them to make reasonable choices about what they read then you've failed in that responsibility.
I don't think so; I think 14 and 15 year olds are still sometimes too immature to know what's good for them. Now, by 16 or 17, it may be another matter.
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quote:I think 14 and 15 year olds are still sometimes too immature to know what's good for them.
But this is just watching a movie... I would think that little things like that should be among the very first things we should them to make their own decisions on.
On that note, at my church we ask kids to be confirmed (formally accept the church) at age 13. I think if they are being asked to judge things like the existence of God, we should at least also trust them to determine what movies they can and cannot watch.
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quote:Did you go up to your teacher and tell them you weren't comfortable reading it and ask them to assign you another book for that assignment?
Yes. I was in fifth grade the first time, I explained that I was upset by the book and why, and she said, "The whole class is reading it, if you don't finish it and do the work you won't make better than a C this semester."
Wow, I've never had a teacher that would do that. For example, when I was in fifth grade we watched "It's a Wonderful Life" in class. I got scared because of the ghosts and asked my teacher if I could sit outside the room instead of watching it. In retrospect, I can't believe how silly that was, but she was totally understanding and just let me leave.
I'm not sure how to phrase this, because to my mind there's a huge difference between a fifth grader and a high schooler. Basically, I would expect a fifth grader's parents to know all of the books they were reading in class, and to take care of any problems like you described before the kid had to take care of the problem themselves. So the parent would remove any objectional material before the child saw it. On the other hand, I would expect the process to work in the opposite direction in high school. I think the teenager would have the responsibility of assessing whether they feel the book is appropriate and talking to the teacher about it, and if the teacher isn't responsive then asking their parents to be more forceful.
I hope that makes sense, I don't feel like it does, but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it.
Tres said everything else I wanted to say far better than I could say it myself.
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quote:I would think that little things like that should be among the very first things we should them to make their own decisions on.
Yes, but, well, some teenagers do things they know aren't good for them, sometimes to spite their parents, sometimes for other reasons.
And blacwolve, another incident occured in Jr. High (age 13) and three in HS (two at age 15, one at 16.) In each case I was told to do the work, drop the class, or take a bad grade. (Well, not in Jr. High-- I didn't have the option to drop that class. And it wasn't really an option in 10th grade English, either, because I would just have had to repeat it that summer, it was a required class to graduate.)
My mother eventually did end up talking to all four teachers. Three wouldn't budge, one ended up allowing me to do independent study for the rest of the semester, and go to the library and do my own special project, but only after intervention from my mom and me pointing out my other problems with her class rather tactlessly.
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Heh. Are you both so knowledgeable that you're going to tell me my own job now?! Impressive!
No, there is no dispensation to show movies in general in schools. And, as you noted, fair use does not automatically extend to entire movies.
To give a specific example, Disney does not want teachers showing videotapes of their movies in class, and aggressively seeks to prevent it, both through information campaigns and threats. Since they make primarily children's films, people pretty much reach straight for their movies when they want to babysit some kids, and basically trample all over their copyright. (I'm not really agreeing with Disney's policy, just explaining their point of view.) Our media center will pretty much not allow us to use a Disney movie, due to the fact that we're in their own back yard, and they're somewhat likely to find out about it if we do.
Now, fair use in education regards sharing an excerpt for a legitimate educational purpose. It would be quite hard, I think, to argue that a film with nudity in it, when such nudity violates district policies, could possible serve a legitimate educational purpose. (Not because I am a prude, but because it violates a policy in place.) Therefore, I believe quite strongly that the teacher was violating copyright when he showed that movie.
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Heh, here's a general clearing house (they specify non-educational purposes, making me think there are separate terms for educational purposes): http://www.movlic.com/k12/license/license.html
Interestingly, there is an exemption set in stone for educational uses, in classrooms, in non-profit schools
quote:Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, the following are not infringements of copyright: (1) performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course of face-to-face teaching activities of a nonprofit educational institution, in a classroom or similar place devoted to instruction, unless, in the case of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, the performance, or the display of individual images, is given by means of a copy that was not lawfully made under this title, and that the person responsible for the performance knew or had reason to believe was not lawfully made;
Of course, the phrasing of this exemption means a case (that might be considered strong in the current climate) could be made that it is rarely if ever part of instruction to show an entire mainstream movie, and that the instructional purpose was fulfilled completely by some subset of the movie.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: That said, on at least one occasion I have shown an R-rated movie which I did not realize was R-rated at the time.
See, Icarus, I don't get what you're saying, if you did it yourself then why do you keep mentioning copyright violations?
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quote:It would be quite hard, I think, to argue that a film with nudity in it, when such nudity violates district policies, could possible serve a legitimate educational purpose.
What if he had fast-forwarded through the nudity? Sarafina!, for instance, had some in it, which we did not see, but we saw the rest of the film, when we were learning about apartheid in South Africa.
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The copyright issue is basically separate from the ratings issue; it may well be his school had a license which would allow him to show the film.
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quote:See, Icarus, I don't get what you're saying, if you did it yourself then why do you keep mentioning copyright violations?
If I see somebody driving 80 miles an hour, I can't point out that it's speeding if I've ever sped in my life?
I can only point out that something is against the law if I have never broken the law? I can only point out that something is unprofessional if I have never been unprofessional? I'm not arguing that he should be fired; I'm pointing out that he should have known better.
Also, Theaca, I'm debating a point, not screaming in outrage.
kq, our district's policy is that R movies are absolutely out. No fast-forwarding, no home-editing, out. I could do it and hope to get away with it, but if I get caught breaking the rules, I can't complain (much) when made to pay the price, can I?
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Oh, okay. But that wasn't the policy in his district, in his, like in mine, you had to get permission. Which he didn't. Which is why I don't see why everyone is making a fuss over him being fired.
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Well, it does seem harsh. I would think a reprimand and an apology are more in order. But, you know, you don't get to pick your punishment when you break the rules.
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Exactly. And the fact that he wasn't a full-time, tenured teacher... Then add to that the "we don't know what he's done in the past or whether this is a first offense" factor, and it seems they exercised a legal option that he knew was a possibility when he broke the rules.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: When I taught middle school, we were supposed to get permission slips signed for PG or PG-13 movies. That seems to not be a requirement anymore at the high school level.
(What about copyright? There's a good chance that showing an R-rated movie to high school kids does not qualify as "fair use.")
Sorry, Ic, I didn't quote enough... I really don't understand your post there. If it is R rated or is by Disney, then it might break copyright, but PG and PG-13 are ok. That's what I took away from your posts. Nevermind. *wanders back out*
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quote: Exactly. And the fact that he wasn't a full-time, tenured teacher... Then add to that the "we don't know what he's done in the past or whether this is a first offense" factor, and it seems they exercised a legal option that he knew was a possibility when he broke the rules.
He retired from full time teaching, in the same county (possibly the same school, though I don't know that) last year. He was a beloved(by students) and fairly well-liked (by everyone else) teacher, from what i have been able to find out.
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Oh, I thought you were implying that because he wasn't a full time, tenured teacher that THEY didn't know about his past. The quotes confused me. It was late. I think I read that he had been named Teacher of the Year a few years ago, butthat may well have been a different Youngblood. Not a terribly common name around here, but it may not have been him.
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Great teachers DO break the rules, because the rules in this country are counter-intuitive to teaching...
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I keep on confusing Krankykat with dkw's mother and it's getting very disturbing.
ketchupqueen- What I'm saying is that kids need to be allowed to make those mistakes, you can't keep them protected forever, and if they make those mistakes in something as minor as what book they read or movie they see then the chances are that much less that they'll make mistakes when it comes to something really important.
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I agree with blacwolve in that they need to be able to make those decisions, for example, when they're at a friend's house and the friend wants to watch a movie that they don't think is ok.
But, like KQ, I think it's an entirely different matter for them to be forced to make those decisions in a public school setting, where it's an authority figure trying to show them something. Until they're 18 the teachers are still accountable to the parents for what they show and teach.
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Thank you, Jenna! That is exactly what I'm trying to say-- that and, no matter what you think they need to do, and I think they need to do, if the parents don't agree, I don't think it's right to allow it in public schools.
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Krankykat, do you live in the US? If so, I shouldn't have to tell you unless it's been a while since you were in school...
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Thank you, Jenna! That is exactly what I'm trying to say-- that and, no matter what you think they need to do, and I think they need to do, if the parents don't agree, I don't think it's right to allow it in public schools.
*blinks* I just want to make it very clear that I'm only talking about books here, I totally agree with everything Jenna is saying as it relates to movies.
What I'm reading you saying here is that you don't think I should have been allowed to read "Catcher in the Rye" in my senior year high school English class. Despite the fact that I picked it out myself from a list of books that were acceptable for the assignment. We'll completely leave aside the fact that although I'm sure my parents knew I was reading it I didn't consult with them on the decision at all. Am I correct in my understanding?
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: No, I'm saying that if your parents told you not to read that book, your teacher shouldn't make you.
Or even ask you to if they were aware of your parents' sentiment on the subject (like if you'd told them.)
We're in total agreement then. I think the idea of teachers forcing a student to read something they or their parents is uncomfortable reading is despicable.
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quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think the idea of teachers forcing a student to read something they or their parents is uncomfortable reading is despicable.
Does the same principle apply to sciences? What if parents are uncomfortable with their children learning about evolution? Should there be an opt-out for biology class? Is there something to be said for teaching hard truths that either parents or students may not want to learn, but are important nonetheless? And, if all material has an opt-out option assiciated, should that be noted somehow?
What I mean is, if I tell a college recruiter I got an "A" in English, but I don't say I skipped 2/3 of the reading material (hypothetical hyperbole there, just for the purposes of elucidation) because it was offensive to my sensibilities, and it's not indicated on my transcript, is that somehow unfair to the student who read all the material and got an "A-"?
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We're not saying that a student should just skip work with no consequences. There are other options-- like doing an alternate assignment/reading an alternate book. Kind of like the law we have here in CA-- if a student is uncomfortable dissecting a frog in Biology class (at least in a public school, I don't know if this applies to a private one), he/she may prepare a report on the anatomy and physiology of a frog instead (or another equivalent project assigned by the teacher.) It's a state law to allow those who are offended by dissecting an animal to not do something they have a moral objection to while still learning the material and doing work.
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Will there always be equivalencies, though? I mean while writing a report is useful, it doesn't teach you how to disect a frog. If the goal of the lesson is to learn how to do that, I don't think the two are equivalent. While if the goal is to learn a frog's anatomy, the two are more equivalent. Which is to say, are there goals (rather than methods) of education that can't be substituted away (thinking again about evolution)? And what can you do if those goals are what a student finds objectionable?
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The goal of a dissection in Biology class is not to learn dissection, it's to learn anatomy and physiology. If you were taking a dissection class, you of course would not be able to have a real equivalent. But I'm assuming people with that moral objection would not take dissection, while Biology is a required part of the coursework for a college-prep track in many high schools.
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I haven't seen Elizabeth, but it seems eminently appropriate, in its subject matter, for an English literature class. It's also a film the students are unlikely to have seen.
He should have gotten a permission form, but forcing him to resign is way over the top -- like expelling a student for not doing his homework, say.
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But, kq, could there be aspects of coursework for a college-prep track that are a) objectionable and b) not conducive to substitution. If so, how can the situation be resolved? Either the student is forced to participate in an offensive activity, or the teacher is forced to give credit for completion to a student who has not, in fact, completed the necessary core.
Posit that Johnny is a religous flat-earther bound for college where he wants to study literature. In his high school Physics class there is a module on how the earth is round. Johnny is asked to do an assignment on proofs of why the earth is round. He says, "I can't do this; it violates my code of morality." Should he be allowed to substitute some other assignment? And is it fair to the college that accepts him not to note that Johnny never learned why the earth is round?
I realize this is all absurd, and maybe it's my love of abstraction over pragmatism, but I find the issue interesting philosophically. Is a teacher's primary obligation to teach truth as they know it to be, or is it to supply desired knowledge at the student/parent's request? This is straying significantly from the particulars of this case, but that's just the way my mind works Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I knew a girl in college who wrote her Sophomore Lit paper on why a Christian college should not require its students to read any Homer. Because even acknowledging that ancient Greeks worshipped different Gods could undermine our faith, or something.
Maybe she had a point, seeing as I'm all heathen-y now. However, if the only way to keep your faith is to pretend no one ever thinks differently (or assign motives to them without ever asking), then I'd really rather not. Hermetically sealing your children is a great way to set them up for simply spectacular young adulthood adjustment traumas, when they do actually encounter the wide world.
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quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Hermetically sealing your children is a great way to set them up for simply spectacular young adulthood adjustment traumas, when they do actually encounter the wide world.
Agreed, but who has the right to decide when to inform children of uncomfortable truths: parents or educators (speaking not only of teachers but school boards, superintendants, etc.). And how do you resolve conflicts? Should teachers always defer to parents? Vice versa? Arm wrestle and the winner gets their way?
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