The short of it is, a Muslim in Britain noticed that the lid on BK's ice cream cones (ice cream cones have lids?) featured a swirled-cone design that, when turned 90 degrees CCW, resembles the arabic word for Allah. Initiate apology and recall.
posted
I think it's crazy that ice cream cones have lids to begin with. Why would an ice cream cone have a lid? That's just wrong. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Maybe Muslims should re-design their Allah script so that it doesn't look so much like random swirls that people might draw Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Makes good business sense to just change the design. Why antagonize an entire faith over something so small?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
It might make good business sense, but it's still ridiculous that it caused offense. It wasn't THAT similar, it was obviously not intentional, and it's a freakin' swirl. I doodle things like that all the time, maybe they should boycott me. But I don't sell anything.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I just showed the picture of the cone (without the script next to it) to my Muslim friend from Saudi Arabia and asked her what she thought. She immediately said it resembled the word for Allah. Of course, she said there are a whole lot of words and symbols which resemble the word for Allah, so it's not too surprising. She did think it was kind of weird that it was on an ice cream cone, but not sacriligeous.
By the way, the reason the cone has a lid is that it comes pre-wrapped in a little package. Burger King is apparently too cheap to pay for soft-serve machines in Britain.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Our university uses a bank/company for disbursing the loan refunds to students that's called "Higher One." Maybe all of us who believe in God, or a Higher One, should boycott THEM. That seems to be a definite sacrilegious violation, much moreso than a swirl.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Not quite quoting the Pixiest or Swampjedi:
quote: Be wary as you walk throughout your life for the hidden little landmines of Judaism.
I'm tired of bending over backwards for these people and they haven't even instituted Jewish law here yet. I mean, we're the freakin' majority here, not them. If They get offended by something I do that I can easily and painlessly change, then it's Their problem, not mine. Who are They to tell me what I'm doing is offensive to their culture.
OK, I know it's an extreme example comparing apples and oranges, but I'm trying to make a point. Why can't we simply respect another culture's religious beliefs so as to live in harmony with them rather than saying in effect: "their particular belief is silly, so why should I make an effort to offend them"?
I'm not talking about forcing our women to wear veils because a particular minority is offended by the sight of a woman's face. I'm not even talking about forcing Burger King to change it's cone design because it offends someone--if they wanted to institute a new ad campaign featuring a crucifix bathed in urine, I wouldn't favor the government banning it. What I am talking about is people getting all up in arms about changing certain behaviors in non-lifestyle-altering ways in order to be better neighbors. It's this Us vs. Them mentality that drives me nuts.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I'm also alittle put off by people who insist of comparing values of differing faiths. I hear alot of "I wouldn't be offended, so they shouldn't be either." The religions are not the same and the points of emphasis are different. The image of Christ and an image of Mohammad are not regarded with similar attitudes and therefore it is not the place of a Christian to deem what Muslims may or may not be offended by. And this extends to all faiths.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Brian, Your argument would hold water if they were polite about it instead of going ape caca and throwing murderous riots over every little thing... There were no riots, much less murderous ones about "Piss Christ" just a bunch of grousing from the christians.
My comment went beyond the icecream incident. It has nothing to do with who's the majority. It's simply the muslim world acting like petulent children over and over again.
I don't appriciate your fake quote. I know how you meant it and I appriciate the disclaimer at the top, but for someone who doesn't read it carefully it really looks like I said that. (and there are a lot of people who don't read carefully on the internet...)
There's such a thing as being too sensitive, and I think this is definitely a case of that. It seems like the Muslim community is constantly overreacting to this kind of stuff, I just don't know if it's because they want to prove how afraid everyone is of them when they make threats, or if they are really that fanatical. Not all Muslims obviously, but it's a very loud percentage.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
For the record, I can read Arabic and when I first saw the cone, I immediately thought it referred to Allah. It even has the vowels! Just saying.
However: one crazy attention-seeking man does not a Muslim community/world make. It would be racist and essentializing to think his actions representative of any larger affiliation.
This sort of thing happens in America all the time--remember the lady urging a boycott of McDonald's because their coffee scaled her when she was driving with it between her thighs?
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Exactly Kristen. And if Burger King wants to sell this cone cover in Arabic countries than they should respect the people and customs of that country. Everyone is saying how the muslim world is making people jump but its being sold in an arabic country. If that cone lid had been sold in say france and a bunch of Muslims got angry then i could see it being an overreaction. Just my thoughts.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kristen: This sort of thing happens in America all the time--remember the lady urging a boycott of McDonald's because their coffee scaled her when she was driving with it between her thighs?
People seem to recall both the details and the main point of that case in variant and odd ways.
Perhaps this works better as an example of media misrepresentation or urban folklore variation from the source material?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I guess I'm still steamed over the cartoon scandal. I don't care what Muslim sensitivities are, murderous riots kinda make me utterly non-compliant.
Now that I think about it and bypass the gut reaction, I admire the man for doing what he did. Instead of killing people or inciting violence, he acted as a civic-minded person should. Of course, this assumes that his call for jihad wasn't a call for violence.
I feel like a hypocrite, honestly. What this fellow did is what I'd do, in his shoes.
****
pH, how many Christian murderous rampages can you mention in the last year? How many people have mobs of Christians injured?
I don't have a problem with Muslims. I have a problem with crazy people who want me to believe as they do or die, regardless of their 'religion' or lack of it. I think I can say I loathe the 'Protestant' KKK with just as much passion as I do the radical Islamics.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
O in Britian. Didn't notice that the first time... Well then I am a little more annoyed about the whole thing.
And as to radical christians. I am sure there are some somewhere in the world. Killing and rampaging around. It went on in, was i scotland or ireland? Well the protestants and Catholics were killing eachother in droves. Is that all over now? I hope so...
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:I don't care what Muslim sensitivities are, murderous riots kinda make me utterly non-compliant.
It's important to remember that the people involved in those murderous riots represent only a tiny fraction of the Muslim world. To condemn all Muslims and to discount all Muslim concerns because of the egregious behavior of a small percent of Muslims is by definition racist.
I've been appalled at how easily people in the west are willing to justify our racist attitudes.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: pH, how many Christian murderous rampages can you mention in the last year? How many people have mobs of Christians injured?
I don't have a problem with Muslims. I have a problem with crazy people who want me to believe as they do or die, regardless of their 'religion' or lack of it. I think I can say I loathe the 'Protestant' KKK with just as much passion as I do the radical Islamics.
What about within the past two thousand years? Crusades, anyone? Forced conversion of natives when the Catholics "discovered" South and Central America?
Arguably, many Christians believe that everyone should do as they do or die.
Oh, and don't even get me started on Katrina being a righteous punishment from God on all the "sinners" of New Orleans. Yeah, all those people just got what they had coming. Especially the gays. Because otherwise, why would the hurricane have hit on the weekend of Southern Decadence (aka Gay Mardi Gras)?
quote:It's important to remember that the people involved in those murderous riots represent only a tiny fraction of the Muslim world. To condemn all Muslims and to discount all Muslim concerns because of the egregious behavior of a small percent of Muslims is by definition racist.
In this case, it's one individual.
I don't like the term 'racist' because it really doesn't take into account that people from all races are Muslim. Anti-arabism, maybe?
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Oh, and don't even get me started on Katrina being a righteous punishment from God on all the "sinners" of New Orleans. Yeah, all those people just got what they had coming. Especially the gays. Because otherwise, why would the hurricane have hit on the weekend of Southern Decadence (aka Gay Mardi Gras)?
Please tell me this was an example and not your personal opinion. Because I find that that a scary concept. Scary in the "I can't believe people think that way," not scary in the "i think God is going to smite me way."
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Anti-arabism would be wrong to since most Muslims are not Arab. But even more, anti-islamism or anti-semitism are specific terms and I was seeking for a broad term. Perhaps the term "bigoted" would be more accurate but I still prefer the term racists. Webster dictionary defines race as "2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics". By that definition, it is justifiable to refer to Islam or Judaism or Mormonism as races even though they are genetically diverse groups.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Arguably, many Christians believe that everyone should do as they do or die.
Show me those people. Show me the ones that say such a thing - I want to see proof. You have a big burden of proof too, to cover your use of the word "many."
Christian belief is exactly the opposite - we want people to live. We want them to live eternally. That's our goal, that's what we work toward that's what our God commands us to do - go out and make disciples of all nations not so people can die, but so they can live. That's a very far way away from "everyone should do as we do or die."
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
But what happens if people don't become Christians and follow Christian ideals?
Eternal damnation.
There are plenty of religions who have that same viewpoint.
All I'm saying is that "Everybody who is not Our Religion X, which is the Only True Religion, is going to be killed/punished/damned/smited (smitten?) by Thor's Hammer" is not unique to Islam.
I agree with you that of course it is. But we certainly can't claim that Christians, as a group, have always acted that way. We have been quite as guilty of the "believe as we do or die" as any religion.
And it is perhaps even more egregious, as that attitude is so clearly contrary to how we are supposed to act.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I suppose the part where I said I had a problem with Muslim extremists was ignored. Sheesh. Lemme repeat it again - I have no problems with Muslims who don't want to kill me or subject me unwillingly to their laws.
pH, only God knows what the point of Katrina was. Anyone who claims otherwise (glares at Pat Robertson) needs to shut up. I find the people who claim it was punishment to be pious simpletons, myself.
Also, I think there's quite a difference in "if you chose that path, you'll die then get damnation" and "if you don't chose our way, we'll kill you and send you to hell." Quite a bit of difference. I don't have a problem with the first. After all, lots of people think the same about me.
Yes, Christians have had issues. Horrible things have been done in the name of Christ. How long ago has that been? Do we need to be constantly crucified for what happened all those years ago? I'm criticizing extreme Islam for what is happening now. Not 500 years ago, not 1000 years ago. Now. I don't hold folks accountable for the sins of their fathers. "You did the same thing when you were little" sounds like a pathetic excuse from a teenager, trying to guilt trip his parents.
I really think you need to be more careful reading posts. I don't appreciate having words stuck in my mouth again. Please don't use me as a focus for whatever animosity you may have toward this subject.
quote:Yes, Christians have had issues. Horrible things have been done in the name of Christ. How long ago has that been?
How long since when. The crusades ended about 900 years ago? The spanish inquisition was over 500 years ago? Witch hunts ended around 400 years ago. Legal persecution of Mormons ended about a century ago. Prohibition of Native American religions ended less than half a century ago. Mass execution of Jews, JWs and gypsies hasn't happened for 60 years? The most recent IRA bombings were less than 5 years ago. The most recent bombing of an abortion clinic was less than a year ago.
But no, Christians shouldn't be condemned for these acts. The reason its wrong to condemn Christians for these acts isn't because they are all long past but because they all represent the acts of only a subset (and often a very tiny subset) of Christians. It's wrong to condemn all of Christianity for what only some Christians do. That's the point and it is why we bring this up when people start condemning Islam for the current violence.
The point isn't that we did the same thing when we were little. It is that similar things have happened and are happening in our culture right now. Those who want us to believe that violence is a problem unique to Islam are simply wrong. Yes some Muslims use the Koran to justify violent acts. Some Christians use the Bible to justify wars and some Jews use the Torah to justify terrible things. This is a problem of humanity and not the problem of one religion.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Thats just dumb. The letter on the far right is connected to the one on it's left, making it an "l" and not an "a". What that swirly says is more "leleleh" than "allah". Silly people and their reading stuff wrong.
The fact that people are overly aware of Muslim sensitivities comes second to the fact that THE ICE CREAM SPELLS GIBBERISH!
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
My deepest apologies, rivka. I removed it. I can assure you, it won't happen again. [Edit: something tells me there's an object lesson in that. ]
Rabbit, if you'll look, I've been very careful numerous times now to specify that it's extreme people who are the problem. Extreme folks in any group. Any group. Please, please read carefully before posting in the heat of the moment - because I completely agree with you.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I also find it interesting how quickly BK responds to its Muslim customers yet still doesn't provide sufficient healthy and vegetarian food for its Western customers.
Granted, I'm not going to start a jihad over it... Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: Yes, Christians have had issues. Horrible things have been done in the name of Christ. How long ago has that been? Do we need to be constantly crucified for what happened all those years ago? I'm criticizing extreme Islam for what is happening now. Not 500 years ago, not 1000 years ago. Now. I don't hold folks accountable for the sins of their fathers. "You did the same thing when you were little" sounds like a pathetic excuse from a teenager, trying to guilt trip his parents.
I really think you need to be more careful reading posts. I don't appreciate having words stuck in my mouth again. Please don't use me as a focus for whatever animosity you may have toward this subject.
Well, I find blaming people for a natural disaster and claiming that they don't "deserve" to be helped because they brought it upon themselves to be a horrible thing, and that certainly WAS done in the name of Christ. I can criticize Christianity plenty for things that are being done "now" as opposed to things that happened, say, in the 20th century, since those "don't count."
I don't appreciate you assuming that I had some personal vendetta against you in my posts, and I CERTAINLY don't appreciate you telling me that I'm not reading carefully enough. Believe it or not, the fact that I disagree with what you're saying doesn't mean that I'm not reading what you're saying. And the fact that I'm disagreeing with a sentiment that you as well as a few other people hold doesn't mean that I'm singling you or anyone else out. In fact, my first post on this thread was in direct response to something that The Pixiest said, not you. Believe it or not, I have better things to do with my day than cruise around Hatrack and look for ways to deliberately misread your posts and "use [you] as a focus toward whatever animosity [I] have toward this subject."
You seem to think that I have some sort of terrible, vengeful agenda against Christianity, and that most assuredly is not true.
But don't be surprised if I focus more directly (and negatively) on YOUR posts from now on. Whether or not that's the "mature" thing to do, it certainly is the HUMAN thing to do, given the attitude that you've now displayed towards me. Believe it or not, I don't appreciate you putting words and attitudes into my mouth in the exact same manner as you're accusing me of doing. It's sad, really. I kind of liked you.
quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: Once again, I'm sorry.
No need to apologize again. I am quite aware that it does not occur to many Christians that there are people who view the Pharisees (I would say Prushim) as beloved and wise ancestors. (aka ChaZaL)
I'm not offended, and I appreciate your consideration of my sensibilities. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I read what you said quite careful and posted in a calm considered manner not in the heat of the moment. I know you said your problem was only with Muslim extremists. My response was most specifically to your inference that Christian violence was different than Islam violence because Christian violence was all ancient history. It isn't. My point was not to condemn you, Islam or Christianity but that if we honestly looked at our own culture we would find more similarity with some of these angry Islamic extremist than we are wont to admit.
Why do you consider it important to mention the religion of the extremists at all? Why does it matter? Violence is an inappropriate way to address problems. Period. It doesn't matter whether you are a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Marxist, an Anarchist, a Republican, a Democrat or a Chicago Bulls fan. Violence is not ethical. You don't have to look very hard to see that no one group is more violent than the others.
The problem in the world today is that far too many people on everyside have a double standard. One standard to justify their own actions and another for the actions of others. We condemn the use of violence by terrorists, but condone the use of much greater violence by our own countries. International laws that say its OK for countries to bomb but not OK for rebels to bomb have no ethical justification beyond protect those who already have power. That double standard is at the root of many problems.
The recent riots in many parts of the world were not a simple response to a few mean spirited cartoons. They were a reflection of wide spread fears that our "war on terror" is really a war on Islam.
People have been far to quick to condemn people as irrational zealots and far to slow to look at the whole environment that leads to these events.
The Piss Christ didn't lead to Christian's rioting in the streets because no Christians were seriously worried that laws might be passed that restrict their right to worship. No Christians were worried that their homes might be bombed and their children shot. No Christians were worried that they might disappear into a secret prison. When the Piss Christ was made, there no one was seriously calling for an all out war on Christianity.
But these things are happening, at least on a small scale, to Muslims right now. Is it any wonder in the current environment that many Muslim people are scared?
When people are scared, they over react, and they often react with violence. This isn't a tenet of Islam nor is it unique to Muslims. It is a human character trait. If we recognized that perhaps we would do more to promote better understanding rather than throwing more fuel on the fire.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Ouch . I'm sorry that I've come off that way. I absolutely don't think that you have any vendetta against me. It just seemed to me that I said something that hit one of your pet peeves. I do that sometimes - heck, I did it here. Like being misunderstood. I stated several times that I was against Christian abortion clinic bombers and KKK members just as much as Muslim rioters, and still the criticism kept coming up.
I wonder how many times I'll apologize on this thread. I do like to argue passionately, but I don't want to make people mad. I'm sorry I've done that to you. You're welcome to focus negatively on my posts if you want - I deserve that.
Now, to focus on your points -
You're right. Pat Robertson, among others, claims all sorts of stuff in the name of Christ. Nothing makes me madder. I would love to root out all of the unChristlike behavior in Christians everywhere - but I can only do that in myself. [Of course, as my post above shows, I am not the best at that.]
However, I still see that as very different from what some radical Muslims are doing. Robertson claimed some natural event as the hand of God. Radical Muslims will act as the hand of God, and destroy the city and kill the people themselves. That's a huge difference.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Rabbit - agreed. Christian violence and stupidity is worse to me, because it angers me that people could twist the Bible that way. My only point was just because members of "my group" were/are bad doesn't mean I can't criticize members of "their group" for something similar.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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