quote:Originally posted by starLisa: (1) Muslims believe they should force the entire world to follow Islamic law. (2) The cartoons are just an excuse. In today's environment, any excuse for violent eruptions will do. [/QB]
Gee, there you go, pretending to do that mind-reading trick again.
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I have personal issues with Mark Steyn. But I can't argue with his latest column about this issue. Have a look.Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Muslims do not all believe they should force the entire world to follow Islamic law. But there are a lot.
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What I really have a problem with is the idea that all the world has to follow an Islamic command. I'm not Moslem. The prohibition of drawing Mohammed does not apply to me.
I'm a Reformed Christian who tries to live my life according to my own set of beliefs. I don't expect the rest of the world to recognize every one of those beliefs and be forced to live according to them too. In fact, I should have compassion for those that don't agree with me, if I'm following the teachings of my faith.
If Islam wants to be perceived as a faith of peace and love it needs to look at something like this and say "Well, the people who drew that cartoon haven't seen the light, so we must have patience and compassion for them." They should not expect the entire world to bend down and follow Islamic law, yet it seems they do. They want tolerance and respect for their own faith but won't show any for anyone else's.
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Oddly enough, going down the top ten list of countries with high muslim populations, we see that none of the top five (in order: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey) are particularly known for Muslims who want to force the entire world to follow Islamic law. Quite the opposite for some of them, in fact.
Of the top ten Muslim population countries in the world, those make up about 75% of the Muslim population. That's about a third to two fifths of the entire Muslim population of the world in countries not known for efforts in their Muslim population to force everyone in the world to follow Islamic law, in some cases known for their support of secular law (India, for instance).
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99.99% of all Christians would never dream of bombing an abortion clinic, but the .01% that do give my faith a bad name and I denounce them.
You'll also find many Christians standing up and denying that those who do so are true representatives of our faith. While I do see some encouraging signs of Muslim's calling for peaceful protest, not violence, I do not see people who are standing up and saying "These people are not true representatives of the Islamic faith. We denounce them and want no part of them." Now if I've missed that, point me to where it's being said.
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Some links have already been provided to that effect in this thread, actually. Here's one that Storm Saxon posted back on page two, from my home and native land. There are plenty of other examples if you look, but the condemnations and peaceful protests aren't getting as much press time as the violence.
On a broader note, I think people are still ignoring the fact that this is all symptomatic of a deeper issue.
If Muslims around the world constantly stage violent protests at the drop of a hat, then why were there no violent protests last October? J-P originally ran the cartoons on September 30th, 2005. There was a peaceful demonstration in Denmark in October, but violent demonstrations didn't begin until January 2006. Why would anyone who felt that insulted wait until January or February to get mad? It isn't because Arabs hadn't seen them -- an Egyptian newspaper reprinted some of them in November 2005 and there were no protests. A lot of the discussion in this thread seems to be oversimplifying by drawing a straight causal link: cartoons->violence. The time delay alone is enough to invalidate that, but if you take a closer look at it there is obviously much more going on here. Violent protests in the Middle East didn't begin in earnest until two things happened:
(1) A group of radical Danish Muslim clerics put together a "dossier" that grouped the 12 published cartoons together with at least three vastly more offensive fakes, and then met with various political and religious leaders throughout the Middle East;
(2) European newspapers began reprinting some or all of the cartoons in a show of solidarity with the original Danish paper.
Storm Saxon's links on page 5 are a good starting point. If you look through them you'll find a good timeline of events from September 30th of last year up to now, but you have to go back five or six years before you begin to get a good feel for how the relationship between Denmark and its immigrant and first-generation Muslim population has been developing.
To reiterate some of my previous posts to this thread, this is primarily about the larger question of how Denmark (and Europe in general) deals with its Muslim population. There is blame to be laid at the feet of both groups.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Muslims do not all believe they should force the entire world to follow Islamic law. But there are a lot.
True. But all the death-cultists (and their supporters) do, and a disturbingly large number of the rest do as well.
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quote:Originally posted by twinky: Some links have already been provided to that effect in this thread, actually. Here's one that Storm Saxon posted back on page two, from my home and native land. There are plenty of other examples if you look, but the condemnations and peaceful protests aren't getting as much press time as the violence.
No offense, Twinky, but that article does not even come close to doing what Belle is talking about. She wrote:
quote: do not see people who are standing up and saying "These people are not true representatives of the Islamic faith. We denounce them and want no part of them." Now if I've missed that, point me to where it's being said.
That article does nothing of the sort. Beyond that, the first Muslim quoted in the article compares those cartoons to Der Sturmer type cartoons of Jews, and that's beyond despicable. These cartoons are a reaction to incessant atrocities that are claimed by the perpetrators to be Allah's will. If you want to object to tarring a group with the misdeeds of some of that group's members, that's one thing. But the Nazi cartoons depicted Jews as vermin to be exterminated. To draw the comparison demonstrates an utter lack of any moral sense on the part of this Tarek Fatah character.
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quote: But the Nazi cartoons depicted Jews as vermin to be exterminated.
Ironic thing for you to be angry about, given how often you refer to Muslims as mindless murdering barbarians.
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quote: But the Nazi cartoons depicted Jews as vermin to be exterminated.
Ironic thing for you to be angry about, given how often you refer to Muslims as mindless murdering barbarians.
Er. No. Lisa's condemned what she calls the "death cultist" faction of Islam, not Muslims in general. And that's not exactly undeserved, given this fundamentalist faction has committed and supported murder many thousands of times against Westerners of European, Israeli, and American nationalities.
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Lalo, don't bother. He's going to keep going with the nastiness regardless. I think he's hoping for a reaction.
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Have you heard how she's talked about Muslims over, and over, and over again in other threads? She rarely makes a distinction between various groups of Muslims, and rarely elevates them above the level of beasts in her eyes.
I don't know how you could even try and defend her if you'd have read everything she's written about them over the past few months.
Edit to add:
starLisa-
Of course I'm hoping for a reaction, but God willing, a positive one from you. I'm hoping one day you'll realize that your intractable, hate filled point of view is never going to solve the problem, and that often you sound dangerously like the very thing you oppose. I'm not trolling for some vicious outburst from you, I don't have to! You do it all by yourself. I'm just continually surprised that you don't see the irony in a lot of what you say. But then, I think a lot of what you say is intentional trolling anyway.
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An article from the LA Times that focuses on Danish people's reactions the what's going on. A couple of quotes:
quote: "A lot of Danes have problems understanding what is going on and why people in those countries reacted this way," said Morton Rixen, a philosophy student, looking out his window at a city awhirl in angst and snow. "We're used to seeing American flags and pictures of George Bush being burned, but we've always seen ourselves as a more tolerant nation. We're in shock to now be in the center of this."
quote: Danes suspect that the furor over the cartoons has been co-opted by the wider anti-Western agenda of Middle East extremism. Yet they believe the media images of fury over the drawings have cracked the veneer of their nation and exacerbated a debate about immigration, freedom of expression, religious tolerance and a vaunted perception of racial harmony often disputed by immigrants.
quote: Some worry that anti-immigrant political parties are exploiting the burning of Danish embassies in Lebanon, Syria and Iran to promote a xenophobic agenda. "Racism is suddenly popping up in this country," said Merete Ronnow, a nurse who worked in Danish relief efforts in Lebanon and Afghanistan. "I'm stunned by this. It's like now Danes can express exactly what they feel. My colleagues are saying, 'Look, this is how a Muslim acts. This is what a Muslim does.' "
And they interviewed one of the Danish Muslims who took the cartoons to the Middle East.
quote: Akkari said he traveled to the Middle East because Denmark's institutions and right-of-center government had ignored the concerns of the Islamic community. "Nobody listened to us," said Akkari, a spokesman for 27 Muslim organizations. "We are not saying censorship of the press…. But there must be limits on the freedom of speech when dealing with some things."
The son of a political refugee who fled Lebanon in the 1970s, Akkari was raised and educated in Denmark. He said the Danes think of themselves as tolerant but that minorities here encounter subtle discrimination and a "national pride" that often feels threatened by immigrants.
When asked about the Jyllands-Posten's right to publish the cartoons, Akkari said the paper should practice equality and publish derogatory caricatures of the Pope and a rabbi. "Then we will be satisfied," he said.
But these days Akkari is more worried that Middle East violence will create a backlash in Europe over integration. "It's hurting our case," he said. "It's turning the picture completely."
That answers some of my questions. . . this guy, at least, seems to have gotten more than he expected out of the decision to push those cartoons.
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I respect the rights to free speach as much as any man or woman here, but I also believe that people show now go out of their way to do something known to be highly offensive to a great portion of the world.
By publishing these pictures in papers throughout Europe, they are doing far more than supporting the rights of a Danish newspaper, they are telling the muslim community that they view one of their most important guidelines to life as unimportant in comparison to their wanting to make a social statement, it is fine to speak out in support of the Danish newspaper, I see no reason why that should be offensive, but to republish the articles, is simply impassive, rude, and boorish.
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quote:Er. No. Lisa's condemned what she calls the "death cultist" faction of Islam, not Muslims in general. And that's not exactly undeserved, given this fundamentalist faction has committed and supported murder many thousands of times against Westerners of European, Israeli, and American nationalities.
Incidently, "death cultist" is not a very fair term. Can't we just call them Muslim extremists? Or, if it has to be something ultra-biased against them, how about "The Legion of Doom"?
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*shrug* For a suicide bomber, frankly, 'death cultist' does not seem unfair. Showy and deliberately chosen to be inflammatory, yes-but not unfair.
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Thanks for the links, ElJay . It would appear that Akkari, at least, is guilty of stupidity and frankly not understanding his own people-or at least, other Muslims, if that term is more appropriate.
Frankly rioting and destruction is not so surprising, in my opinion. The duration and intensity is surprising, I think, but not that it happened at all.
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Where do they get the flags? Slate addresses the question of where all the Danish flags that are being burned are coming from. Some people have said the governments must have stockpiled them and staged the protests. The article links to close up pictures that show that many of them are obviously homemade, and interviews a flag shop owner who ordered large amounts of cheap copies from China as soon as he noticed people beginning to get upset.
quote: At first, the agitation was limited to Denmark. Ahmed Akkari, 28, a Lebanese-born Dane, acts as the spokesman for the European Committee for Honoring the Prophet, an umbrella group formed by 27 Danish Muslim organizations to press the Danish government into action over the cartoons.
Akkari said the group had worked for more than two months in Denmark without eliciting any response.
"We collected 17,000 signatures and delivered them to the office of the prime minister, we saw the minister of culture, we talked to the editor of the Jyllands-Posten, we took many steps within Denmark, but could get no action," Akkari said, referring to the newspaper that published the cartoons.
He added that the prime minister's office did not even respond to the petition.
Frustrated, he said the group had turned to the ambassadors of Muslim countries in Denmark and asked them to speak to the prime minister on their behalf. He dismissed them too, Akkari said. "Then the case moved to a new stage," he recalled. "We decided then that to be heard, it must come from influential people in the Muslim world."
The group put together a 43-page dossier on the case, including the offending cartoons and three more images, considered to be shocking, that had been sent to Danish Muslims who had spoken out against the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.
Akkari denied that the three additional offending images had contributed to the violent reaction, saying that the images, received in the mail by Muslims who complained about the cartoons, were included to show the response that Muslims got when they spoke out in Denmark.
quote: Akkari concedes that there were misunderstandings along the way.
In Cairo, for example, the group spoke at a news conference about a proposal from Denmark's far-right Danish People's Party to ban the Koran in Denmark because of some 200 verses that allegedly encourage violence.
Several newspapers then ran articles claiming that Denmark planned to issue a censored version of the Koran. The delegation returned to Denmark, but the dossier continued to make waves in the Middle East.
quote: On Jan. 10, as anti-Danish pressure built, a Norwegian newspaper published the caricatures in an act of solidarity with the Danes, leading many Muslims to believe that a real campaign against them had begun.
On Jan. 26, in a key move, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark and Libya followed suit. Saudi clerics began sounding the call for a boycott, and within a day, most Danish products were pulled off supermarket shelves.
"The Saudis did this because they have to score against Islamic fundamentalists," explained Said, the Cairo political scientist. The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of its anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege.
quote: The wave swept up many in the region. Sheik Muhammed Abu Zaid, an imam from the Lebanese town of Saida, said he began hearing of the caricatures from several Palestinian friends visiting from Denmark in December but made little of it.
"For me, honestly, this didn't seem so important," Abu Zaid said, comparing the drawings to those made of Jesus in Christian countries.
"I thought, I know that this is something typical in such countries," he recalled.
Then he started to hear that ambassadors of Arab countries had tried to meet with the prime minister of Denmark and had been snubbed and he began to feel differently.
"It started to seem that this way of thinking was an insult to us," he said.
"It is fine to say, 'This is our freedom, this is our way of thinking.' But we began to believe that their freedom was something that hurts us."
quote: It was just two days after a similar attack occurred on the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus.
"In the demonstration, I believe 99 percent of the people were good and peaceful, but I could hear people saying, 'We don't want to demonstrate peacefully; we want to burn,"' the sheik said.
I'm certainly not posting any of this to excuse anyone's actions. But this is the kind of information I was looking for yesterday -- why would they do it? How does something like this happen? With this article I can see how someone could be feeling ignored and marginalized, and think that stirring up dissent in the wider Muslim world is the next logical step. Like a kid who's getting picked on running to get his big brother who's on the high school football team. To say "Look, you don't realize who you're messing with, you're treating us like nothing but we've got some power you don't know about and you're gonna regret ignoring us!"
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quote:Er. No. Lisa's condemned what she calls the "death cultist" faction of Islam, not Muslims in general. And that's not exactly undeserved, given this fundamentalist faction has committed and supported murder many thousands of times against Westerners of European, Israeli, and American nationalities.
Incidently, "death cultist" is not a very fair term. Can't we just call them Muslim extremists? Or, if it has to be something ultra-biased against them, how about "The Legion of Doom"?
"Fair"? You're actually concerned about what would be a "fair term" to use for animals who deliberately murder innocents?
Some people were kvetching about me lumping all Muslims into one category. Lyrhawn, with his difficulties in reading comprehension, still thinks I'm doing that. So I decided to make a distinction. I've divided Muslims up into these categories (in no particular order):
Death-cultists who plan and/or perpetrate the atrocities that have made Islam a household word around the world
Those who aid and support the death cultists
Those who don't get involved personally, but are glad that the death cultists are working for such a noble end
Those who think it's a bad idea, because it makes people hate Muslims, but realize that if they speak up and the death cultists actually win, they're going to be catfood, so they stay silent
Those who speak out against the violence of the death cultists, but add the caveat that the Jews are just as bad if not worse
Those who bemoan the violence of the death cultists, say that it's not the way they see Islam, but won't actually write the death cultists out
Those who speak out loudly and clearly against the death cultists, and say that the death cultists are no part of Islam
Of course, I have yet to hear of anyone in that last category, but I include it as a theoretical category.
As far as being fair goes, I've had several close calls. A bus from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv was driven off a cliff when a death cultists jumped up and grabbed the wheel. I was on the same bus, the same time, the day before. The number 14 bus to Talpiot in Jerusalem was blown up, and a good friend of mine murdered in the process, when a death cultist became a "holy martyr". I used to ride that bus with my partner and our daughter every day. Fair would be to take all of the death cultists, and all who support them, and to execute them.
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See, the thing is...they don't have the degree of power they think they do. That's what they've got to realize. If the little ignored Muslim kid goes to get his brothers on the high school football team, well...we can always (and frequently do) get our big brothers on the pro football team. And they're bigger and meaner and better at violence.
The Muslim world seems incapable of making the leap of long-term thinking that is required to truly overcome their problems with Israel and the United States: nonviolent resistance. It worked in the USA, it worked in India, and it could work in much of the Muslim world.
I'm not sure if it's because the culture is different, or the religion. African-Americans in the USA certainly had a religious recourse to overcoming injustice in Christianity, and the leap from Christianity to nonviolent resistance is certainly much shorter than from Islam to nonviolent resistance.
I just wish they'd figure it out. I'm not particularly fond of the ceaseless cycle of violence and oppression they've locked themselves into now, mostly on their own, but with our help as well.
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Lisa, perhaps the people you so loudly criticize for not "writing them out" don't believe they have the authority to declare who is and isn’t a part of Islam, any more than you have the authority to decide that someone who isn’t a properly practicing Jew isn’t Jewish.
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But Rakeesh, in this case, they're not protesting against us. And an economic boycott against Danish goods by the entire Muslim world is at least powerful enough to be getting noticed. I think that's the power the Danish clerics were looking for. So far the people dying are protesters getting caught up in the riots.
Now, if there is a suicide bombing in Denmark, then European and possibly our militaries will get involved. But the boycott of Danish goods could be the first step towards the leap you're looking for.
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quote:"Fair"? You're actually concerned about what would be a "fair term" to use for animals who deliberately murder innocents?
No, I'm concerned about what would be a fair term to use for PEOPLE who believe the killing of innocents is an acceptable means to the end they consider so important. After all, would you want to use the term "The Occupiers" instead of Israel from now on? It would be fairly accurate, technically speaking, but it would probably be a quite unfairly biased way of looking at Israel.
quote:Fair would be to take all of the death cultists, and all who support them, and to execute them.
Do you too believe in killing innocents? Or is it that you, like the Muslim extremists, believe that people lose their innocence and right to life merely be supporting such wrongful actions?
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I won't say they lose their right to life, but they certainly lose their innocence by supporting (and I'm talking just speaking out in support of) suicide bombers.
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quote:I have yet to hear of anyone in that last category, but I include it as a theoretical category.
Just for the record, I heard people in the last category, including some rsponsible of the muslim cult in France.
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Belle, I don't think you're going to see any Muslims speaking out in exactly the way you say you're looking for. I think moderate Muslims would prefer to bring radical Muslims back into the proverbial fold rather than attempting to ostracize them and create another schism. What has been happening in Europe in recent years has exascerbated the feeling that many Arabs and Muslims have that the West suffers from what basically amounts to Islamophobia or Arabophobia (justifiably so or otherwise). I think there's a sense among Muslims and Arabs that they (and we, though I was baptized Anglican in the River Jordan [added 3: and am now an atheist]) need to try to unite, not remain fractured into dozens or hundreds of different groups and subgroups.
In some ways, I think it's a religious resurgence of Arab nationalism. It's also partly cultural, I think, but I need to mull that aspect of it over a bit more.
Added:
ElJay, a note about one of your links:
quote:The group put together a 43-page dossier on the case, including the offending cartoons and three more images, considered to be shocking, that had been sent to Danish Muslims who had spoken out against the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.
This is what they claimed, but the truth of the statement is in question. It is equally likely, in my opinion, that they fabricated the three additional images.
Added 2:
It's also worth noting that in 2004 a European human rights organization (the European Network Against Racism) released a report concluding that the Danish press devotes a "disproportionate" amount of editorial space to negative reporting on ethnic minorities.
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I know that it has been debated that what Islam needs is to go through a Reformation of its own. The reason, if I can remember correctly, is that when Christendom went through it's reformation is was a bloody and painful process. But enough people suffered and/or died (cf, 30 years war) that at one point all sides finally learned to leave each other alone. Yes, I know that statement is a huge oversimplification. It wasn't instantaneous nor unanimous. But for the most part, a 'live and let live' philosophy was adopted. That doesn't mean they learned to like each other or agree or that some don't think the others are wrong and may be going to hell. But the endless killing for Catholocism over Protestantism (and vice-versa) largly ended (with some left-over for the Britain-Ireland conflict, which was not simply about religion). Again, this is speaking a large scale. Obviously, LDS history also includes such acts perpetrated against them, as do many other religous groups.
So the reasoning is that Islam has never had such internal strife like the reformation, at least not to the point to make most parties just kind of realize that killing someone for believing something so similar and yet so different from you is stupid (which is the first step. The next is, you don't kill anyone who simply doesn't believe what you do, similar or not). You don't FORCE someone to worship your God. He can take care of his own 'vengeance' and punishment for 'insults' against him.
I sort of buy it. But there might be somethings I'm not considering.
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quote:Originally posted by twinky: ElJay, a note about one of your links:
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This is what they claimed, but the truth of the statement is in question. It is equally likely, in my opinion, that they fabricated the three additional images.
I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility. But I also don't discount the possibility that they're telling the truth, based on some of the other "reaction" cartoons I've seen. There seem to be plenty of people out there who have said the equivilent of "You think that's offensive? I'll show you offensive!" and gone gleefully off drawing ever worse depravities.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: The Muslim world seems incapable of making the leap of long-term thinking that is required to truly overcome their problems with Israel and the United States: nonviolent resistance. It worked in the USA, it worked in India, and it could work in much of the Muslim world.
I'm not sure if it's because the culture is different, or the religion. African-Americans in the USA certainly had a religious recourse to overcoming injustice in Christianity, and the leap from Christianity to nonviolent resistance is certainly much shorter than from Islam to nonviolent resistance.
I just wish they'd figure it out. I'm not particularly fond of the ceaseless cycle of violence and oppression they've locked themselves into now, mostly on their own, but with our help as well.
It's not a matter of them not being able to figure it out. I know you didn't mean it in a condescending way, but consider that this isn't something you know and they don't, but something where they disagree on the basic premises.
In a culture where justice and peace require one side to win and the other to lose, compromise can never be anything but a temporary means to an end.
The Danish clerics who went around waving the cartoons and stirring all of this up did so because it was effective. That's what you do when the important thing is winning. They said it themselves. Non-violent protest didn't achieve their goals. Now, non-violent protest against, say, abortion, doesn't result in the closing down of abortion clinics. That makes some people furious. And there's a tiny fringe that gets violent about it. And they get roundly condemned for it. The rest... well, they find other ways to try and achieve their goals, but without blowing people up.
The same people in a Muslim framework see no reason whatsoever not to blow people up. If it'll work, why not? That's the important thing, right?
Is this an issue of maturity? Maybe. From a Western point of view, maybe it is. But from their point of view, if they don't get what they want, they lose. If they don't want to lose, they have to do whatever is necessary to get what they want. Settling for something inbetween just isn't even on the radar.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: Lisa, perhaps the people you so loudly criticize for not "writing them out" don't believe they have the authority to declare who is and isn’t a part of Islam, any more than you have the authority to decide that someone who isn’t a properly practicing Jew isn’t Jewish.
If a Jew eats a pork chop, I may not be able to say that he isn't Jewish, but I can certainly say that what he is doing is absolutely out of bounds for Judaism, and that he is acting against Judaism by doing it.
But be that as it may. Where are the imams who are saying this? Forget the rank and file. Let them hide behind a lack of authority.
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quote:"Fair"? You're actually concerned about what would be a "fair term" to use for animals who deliberately murder innocents?
No, I'm concerned about what would be a fair term to use for PEOPLE who believe the killing of innocents is an acceptable means to the end they consider so important. After all, would you want to use the term "The Occupiers" instead of Israel from now on? It would be fairly accurate, technically speaking, but it would probably be a quite unfairly biased way of looking at Israel.
It would not be accurate. But it could be argued. Murder is murder.
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Thanks for proving a couple of my points starLisa, you make arguing against you so much easier when you debase your own position with your rhetoric.
quote: In Malaysia's biggest protest against the caricatures, some 3,000 demonstrators called for the destruction of Denmark, Israel and the United States as they marched in a steady rain from a mosque to the Danish Embassy in Kuala Lumpur, AP reported.
"Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America," some of the protesters shouted.
This I just find amusing. It's like they're so used to calling for the destruction of Bush and America, and Israel, that they just toss us on the end of their argument automatically. What's even more amusing is that Bush/America seems to be the only Western country even against the cartoons. Talk about burning bridges.
quote: At a nearby conference, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi spoke of a "huge chasm that has emerged between the West and Islam" and said many Westerners see a Muslim as "a congenital terrorist."
He said Muslims were particularly frustrated at Western policies toward Iraq, Afghanistan and the Palestinians. He did not mention the Mohammed cartoons.
"They think Osama bin Laden speaks for the religion and its followers," AP quoted Abdullah as saying. "The demonization of Islam and the vilification of Muslims, there is no denying, is widespread within mainstream Western society."
Well at least they realize the problem. Now friggin do something about it. Why is it our responsibility to figure out the differences between the extremists and the REAL Muslims? It strikes me as ridiculous that they put the burden on the West, when the Islamic world is the one in confusion and disarray.
quote: In Rome, Italy, a funeral was being held for an Italian priest shot to death in Turkey, allegedly by a Muslim teenager angered by the cartoons. The Rev. Andrea Santoro, 60, was killed Sunday while praying in his Black Sea coast church. Turkish media, citing unnamed police officials, said the 16-year-old suspect told interrogators he killed Santoro to avenge the publication of the drawings.
And what exactly did he think he was accomplishing here? Their main argument is against Denmark, how does killing an Italian priest serve any purpose except to confirm Western anger against thoughtless Islamic brutality?
They need to get their house in order.
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quote:My argument with Tom was not a matter of a simple disagreement. He flat out called me a racist, and I'm sorry, but I find that offensive, and to be honest, stupid. If he isn't stupid, which I believe, then he's just being inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory, which makes him ten times the troll I've ever been, or probably ever will be.
As for starLisa, I wouldn't even know where to start, but she's shown the uncanny ability to throw invective and sarcasm in the fact of reason more times than I can count. And on several occasions when I and others have lobbed hypotheticals in her direction to try and prove a point, she has responded disrespectfully, sarcastically, and in a manner that could be likened to the word "idiot."
It's very much NOT trolling, and not idle name calling. And I'd hope that most people here would agree that I usually don't resort to something so petty. But I'm also sick of direct provocation. [/qb]
Seemed kind of silly to me in the first place since there isn't a monoculture in Islam. Islam exists in Asia, Africa, South America, North America and Europe and people from all ethnic and cultural backgrounds have subscribed to it. Seemed a bizarre concept to me in the first place, maybe "religiously bigoted" would have been a better word and even that is a stretch since it serves no purpose considering pulling out the race or bigot card simply retards any chance at honest dialogue. Odd considering in all my readings of Tom's posts he's normally come across as a voice of reason rather than passion, even when I disagree with him. Anyway, interesting thread, hope it keeps going.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Do you have any on the work of Bat Ye'or, or Andrew Bostom's "Legacy of Jihad"? Both writers kind of predicted directly, or indirectly in each case what's been happening.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
This is something I posted in another forum (I've added links where needed and cleared up a bit of dialog) in reply to a plea to 'avoid demonizing all Muslims.' I include it because StarLisa was complaining (with some justification) that there is a silence from those who oppose the evil things that are done in Islam's name. In this post I mention several who may be of interest.
Here it is: Oh, please. Where have I demonized all Muslims? Where has TED? Where has anyone demonized all Muslims in these forums? We've been bending over backwards to make clear that our concerns are not with people like Big Pharaoh, Sandmonkey, Sam the Mesopatamian, the ITM brothers, the Free Muslim Council, (I'll add Freedom for Egyptians here, too) or the rest. Our concerns are with the jack-ass who added a bunch of inflammatory 'filler' to a package so he would ignite a firestorm where there had been no firestorm....EVEN AFTER THE ORIGINAL 12 PICTURES HAD BEEN PUBLISHED IN EGYPT!!! Our concerns are with the hundreds of thousands who blindly follow this guy and his cohorts into acts of violence and threats of brutality.
I've said this before: we get it. Not all Muslims are extremists. How many freaking times do you need us to say it? WE GET IT. What you continue to try to do is completely understate the role that the perversion of Islam has to play in the larger conflict. And that role is CENTRAL. It isn't an interesting bit of useless trivia. It isn't something that is optional to know. IT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF AND THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE CONFLICT.
Refusing to face the cause for the conflict squarely and honestly will result in the confrontation being drawn out longer. Stop refusing to face it. Look it in the eye, instead, and then help the rest of us defeat it.
And that's the end of it. Not a great work, in any case, but I'll stand by it.
I also would like to point out that I agree with the above comment, they do need to get their house in order.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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On the contrary, I recall hearing about American targets being attacked or burned or protested against recently, and for these drawings, in fact...but it was only a brief mention on NPR. I'll have to look awhile to find it, I think.
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starLisa,
quote:It's not a matter of them not being able to figure it out. I know you didn't mean it in a condescending way, but consider that this isn't something you know and they don't, but something where they disagree on the basic premises.
On the contrary, I did mean it in a condescending way. While I can understand and empathize with the Arabic and Muslim world's frustration and anger against the West and Israel, I think they're incredibly stupid not to realize that if they actually want to do something about it, then direct violence such as suicide bombers is doomed to failure, due to the moral and political situations involved.
quote:The same people in a Muslim framework see no reason whatsoever not to blow people up. If it'll work, why not? That's the important thing, right?
There are other reasons. One of those reasons is tied to the belief by Muslims that if you're doing just about anything in the name of Allah when you die, you ascend straight to Paradise. That's an oversimplification, I know, but it's the core of the belief as I understand it. In fact this belief has a lot in common with the attitude among Christians during much of the Crusades-go on Crusade and you can do whatever you want to those heathens and you're forgiven.
The other reason is that unlike Christianity or Hinduism and Buddhism (the two other religions that helped motivate two of the most famous and successful uprisings in the past century, within India and the USA), Islam doesn't have an idea that you should either turn the other cheek when an abuser attacks you, or that all violence is to be condemned period.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: EVEN AFTER THE ORIGINAL 12 PICTURES HAD BEEN PUBLISHED IN EGYPT!!!
Actually, the Egyptian paper only printed [edit: six] of them.
Added: I originally said two, off the top of my head, but I just checked my facts and it was apparently six. I only saw photos of two of the reprints.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: EVEN AFTER THE ORIGINAL 12 PICTURES HAD BEEN PUBLISHED IN EGYPT!!!
Actually, the Egyptian paper only printed [edit: six] of them.
Added: I originally said two, off the top of my head, but I just checked my facts and it was apparently six. I only saw photos of two of the reprints.
Hmmm, you corrected as I was going to post. HERE is a link that shows all six. This includes the most offensive of the twelve original cartoons, by the way, with the possible exception of the one where a cartoonist is fearfully drawing a bearded man. Which is probably the most appropriate of the lot. Given how things went.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Thanks for the link. I mentioned the Egyptian printing on page six, but didn't specify a number.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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[rant on] I think the reaction of the Muslim world to the Danish cartoon is utterly ridiculous. Can we say blown out of proportion?? Now we have boycotts and the Ambassadors called home? Stupid! The most unbalanced response to anything I’ve ever seen. [rant off]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Where is there Islamic doctrine that forbids the depiction of Mohammed? Does it specify how grievous a sin it is to depict him? Is it written down or just repeated verbally?
Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Joe, IIRC, the prohibition against depicting Allah is in the Koran. But the prohibition against depicting Mohammad is Islamic tradition and not in the Koran.
But I could be wrong.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
There have been many Imams in Sri Lanka who've spoken out against the violence as well, but that was in the print papers. I may not be able to find a link. I also saw reports of Imams from other countries in south & south east Asia speaking out against the violence as well. They instead supported peaceful demonstrations (if anything at all) and tolerance and understanding for other people's beliefs.
I'll see if I can find links.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
There are plenty of other examples if you look, but the condemnations and peaceful protests aren't getting as much press time as the violence. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
