posted
I do hope I don't offend anyone with this title. If it does offend you, let me know and I'll change it ASAP. My question shouldn't really be that controversial. It's just something I thought of on my drive home tonight.
Two things spurred this thought. First off, for yesterdays Easter service, my church focused quite a bit on kids. There were numerous musical numbers... it was really very cute. One of my friends had 3 little siblings in the performance, and her parents had asked their parents (grandparents to my friend and the little performers) to come watch the kids. The grandparents are devoutly atheist, and from what I gather, very anti-religious. They didn't come. Secondly, there is this storage facility that I pass on my drive home that has quite a prominent marquee. About 50% of the time, this marquee has blatant Christian messages on it. I thought to myself, "I wonder if they lose any business because of that".
So my question is, how deep do your anti-religious (or anti-Christian) feelings go? If your grandchildren, or really anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church? And if you knew that a business was run by devout Christians, would you not go there solely for that reason?
quote:If . . . anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church?
Yes, but not for the reason you are implying. My refusal to enter churches, or any houses of worship other than those of my own religion, is not anti-religious -- it's pro MY religion.
But I can fully understand someone who believes in no religion being equally uncomfortable in a house of worship.
quote:And if you knew that a business was run by devout Christians, would you not go there solely for that reason?
No, not unless I was I was being proselytized at just by opening the door (and I have been in places like that).
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posted
I'm not a fan of organized religion, not really anyway. I was raised semi-Catholic, but my parents never really hammered it home like a lot of religious families do, and it didn't stick.
However, I am rather spiritual, after a fashion. It's the organized part of religion I don't buy into, not the higher power aspect.
But, I think that is a very personal decision. I don't judge others for being religious, I judge their actions. Thus, I would not punish a business for being pro-religious, or a politician. Likely, a politician's religiousity will have little or nothing to do with my vote, but if he supports policies that I don't like, and that just happen to be religious philosophies, then I won't vote for him, but it's not because of his religion (at least not directly).
Likewise, I would attend any event at a church, be it a cousin singing in an Easter show, or going to the wedding of a close friend. Just so long as they don't try and push it on me, I have zero problem with it.
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quote:If . . . anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church?
Yes, but not for the reason you are implying. My refusal to enter churches, or any houses of worship other than those of my own religion, is not anti-religious -- it's pro MY religion.
I have to say, I don't understand the reasoning behind that. If you had a close friend or relative that was getting married in a church you wouldn't go, as a show of support for your own religion? How does a boycott make you a better Jew?
Is this a common Jewish thing?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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So you know where I'm coming from - I'm an atheist, if that's the right short hand term for someone who absolutely does not believe in God. Personally, I prefer 'heathen' . I'm not questioning, not looking for religion, although in the course of coming to the conclusions I have about religion, I have learned a great deal about other's beliefs and read the bible cover-to-cover more than once. I have many problems with the concept of organised religion, especially when it is imposed on me, as it was while I was at school.
But I don't see the need to be disrespectful to other people's beliefs. I live with devout Christians and they know what I believe and pretty much accept it, as I do their beliefs. Does it bother me that they believe that I'm damned? Yeah, maybe a little.
I'm not anti-religious, in the sense that I believe that I have the right to tell people they are wrong. As far as I'm concerned, as long as a person isn't hurting someone else with their beliefs, that's fine by me.
But I suppose what I do feel a lot of the time is as is I belong to a slightly different ethnicity - I just don't see churches, holy days, etc as being connected to my life. As for setting foot in a church if a friend was performing - well, despite my beliefs I used to be in a gospel choir. So no, and I think it's a shame that these grandparents are missing out on these experinces. To me that sound like a control issue, that they're disappointed with their kids for having different belief than they do and are trying to punish them.
But it does bother me a little when people tell me that in order to be acceptable to society I should 'pretend to pray' in certain social situations. To me, if I were religious that would be the worst sort of blasphemy. So I'd totally go to church, but I would act, respectfully, as a non-participatory visitor - probably just as you would in a mosque.
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Lyrhawn, it's not a "boycott." And it's not a "show of support."
I am forbidden to enter places of worship of other religions. Period. It is not a place that I belong. I'm fine with that -- why aren't you?
And yes, most (if not all) Orthodox Jews will behave similarly. (In fact, I got very odd looks from my rabbi when I asked him about being in the foyer of a church (outside the sanctuary) so I could sort-of attend a wedding last year.)
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Bella Bee, sounds like we agree quite a bit on our views of organized religion. The main difference being, of course, that I am a Christian .
I thought to myself when considering this question, if my best friend were Muslim, and they were performing in a mosque, would I not go simply because it was in a mosque? And likewise, if I knew for a fact that my storage facility was owned by Muslims, would I leave? To both questions I answered "Of course not!". It doesn't make much sense to me (though I can understand, rivka, that as a tradition or rule or whatever, it doesn't have to make sense, it just is. I respect that).
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rivka, it's not a matter of my being fine with it. It doesn't matter if I am fine with it. It's your religion.
I'm curious as to the wording of "a place that I belong" though. When I go to a concert, it's not necessarily a place that I "belong," it's a place that I choose to be for a specific reason. But since I assume there are doctrinal issues for why you can't be in another house of worship, I won't bother discussing diction, I don't know enough about Orthodox Judaism.
Just strikes me as odd, that's all. It wouldn't bother me unless I was getting married and I wanted to invite you to my wedding and you couldn't/wouldn't attend. But I don't know you well enough for a wedding invite (though if you want to send a present someday, I'll probably be registered at Best Buy when I do get married ).
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But I think this may come from a basic difference between Judaism and some other religions. We don't try to convert people (we actively discourage conversion) because we believe that both Jews and non-Jews have important roles in the world. That men and women have different tasks. That cohanim (priests), levi'im (Levites), and Yisraelim (Jews who are neither of the above) all have different jobs. (Of course, there are some tasks that overlap between groups, or that EVERYONE has.)
As a Jewish woman, there are places I belong, and places I do not. I do not belong in the middle of the middle of the Mir. And I don't belong in a church.
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1) I'd go. Even if the performance itself was overtly religious, I'd still go. But I'd be grumpy as hell with the parents for making their kids go through it. And I'd of course try and make heathens out of the grandkids
2) I would not patronize the business. They have every right to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean I have to give em my money. I find that sort of religious advertising to be extremely distasteful. Now if I knew they were devout christians, but they didn't feel the need to advertise it like in the example you mentioned, then sure I'd patronize it. They've done nothing to me by believing what they believe. It's only when they feel the need to shove it in my face that I get grumpy.
Generally, I'm extremely anti-organized religion. Simply becuase organized religion generally leads to very very bad things. But I'm not at all anti-religious people. If they don't shove their beliefs in my face, I don't shove mine in theirs. I believe in live and let live. And really, if people want to gather together at one church or another to practice their beliefs, that's fine by me. It's only when said religious organization starts attempting to use its to a) aggressively recruit new members (ie loud religious advertising of the sort I strongly dislike) or b) foist its particular religion or view of morality on others (from billboard to political pressure, it all makes me grumpy) that I start to get very, very mean. And unfortunately, this very well describes a lot of christian organizations.
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posted
Well, attending a wedding does give you a good opportunity to scope out the supports and such. You don't want to waste your dynamite on walls that aren't load-bearing.
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quote:Well, attending a wedding does give you a good opportunity to scope out the supports and such. You don't want to waste your dynamite on walls that aren't load-bearing.
and one for you.
1) Of course I'd go; family's too important. In my opinion grandparents exist to a) spoil the grandkids, and b) incite mischief as a form of revenge against their children. That's hard to accomplish if you're not building rapport with the grandkids.
2) It really depends. I think the most important question for me is how the owners respond when/if they find out I'm an atheist. If there are any persistant conversion attempts, you can bet I won't be going back.
Christian themed stores just creep me out. Religion and consumerism make for strange bedfellows.
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quote:If your grandchildren, or really anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church?
I'd go, especially if they really wanted me there. I would not, however, participate in any of the rituals.
quote:And if you knew that a business was run by devout Christians, would you not go there solely for that reason?
It depends on the nature of the posted slogans. When I drive down the street here I see one or two signs that say things like "Prepare to Meet Thy God." If such a sign were outside a store I would definitely avoid buying stuff there. When I was in university, every term for four years I saw signs everywhere that said "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God!" With a meeting time and place for a Christian group at the bottom. Finally I got sick of it and one night in my final year I went to campus late at night armed with a stapler and a set of homemade posters that read: "Do you not know? Have you not heard? God does not exist!" And then, at the bottom: "Don't care? Great -- neither do we! A message from AWE -- Apatheists of Waterloo Engineering."
So evangelism, in the negative sense, irritates me. If, on the other hand, the signs posted outside the hypothetical store showed one of the many positive Christian messages (loving thy neighbour and the like), that'd be fine.
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There was this church in my hometown that had a big sign over it that said, "Jesus Christ - Coming Soon." I always thought it deserved some response like, "WHEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNN!?!?!?" Nothing I could think of ever lived up to the sign itself though. Some things come with the best possible joke already included.
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I don't recall any more...that would have been back in...'94? There might have been some indication, but I seem to remember having to ask what it was all about.
I wish that had been the year I actually enrolled, rather than just coming to investigate the school. Harding is one of my church's schools and I'd have liked to have seen the students' reaction, but it was a break period or something, and most people were gone.
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quote:If . . . anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church?
Yes, but not for the reason you are implying. My refusal to enter churches, or any houses of worship other than those of my own religion, is not anti-religious -- it's pro MY religion.
I have to say, I don't understand the reasoning behind that. If you had a close friend or relative that was getting married in a church you wouldn't go, as a show of support for your own religion? How does a boycott make you a better Jew?
Is this a common Jewish thing?
Yup. We're not allowed to go into places that would be idolatry for us. Note: I'm not saying that Christianity is idolatry for non-Jews. But it is for Jews.
I'd go into a mosque. Whatever issues I have with Islam, that isn't one of them.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Lyrhawn, it's not a "boycott." And it's not a "show of support."
I am forbidden to enter places of worship of other religions. Period. It is not a place that I belong. I'm fine with that -- why aren't you?
And yes, most (if not all) Orthodox Jews will behave similarly. (In fact, I got very odd looks from my rabbi when I asked him about being in the foyer of a church (outside the sanctuary) so I could sort-of attend a wedding last year.)
You're allowed to go into a mosque, rivka. Ask your rabbi, if you don't believe me.
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posted
I disagree with the idea that you should stay away from places of worship if they are for a religion you don't believe in. Similarly, I disagree with the idea that places of worship should try to exclude people who don't believe. A place of worship is just a place - it is not the thing being worshipped, and shouldn't be confused with that. I don't think being there means anything unless you choose to make it mean something by worshipping.
quote:When I drive down the street here I see one or two signs that say things like "Prepare to Meet Thy God." If such a sign were outside a store I would definitely avoid buying stuff there. When I was in university, every term for four years I saw signs everywhere that said "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God!" With a meeting time and place for a Christian group at the bottom. Finally I got sick of it and one night in my final year I went to campus late at night armed with a stapler and a set of homemade posters that read: "Do you not know? Have you not heard? God does not exist!" And then, at the bottom: "Don't care? Great -- neither do we! A message from AWE -- Apatheists of Waterloo Engineering."
Oh come on... even McDonald's has more pushy advertising than that. How would you want them to advertise? "God may or may not exist - but come to Bible Study just in case!" Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Juxtapose, I assume it's because of the lack of iconography depicting God in mosques.
quote:Yes, but not for the reason you are implying. My refusal to enter churches, or any houses of worship other than those of my own religion, is not anti-religious -- it's pro MY religion.
::knows where he'll hide if rivka is ever out to murder him::
But seriously, what about the interfaith worship rooms that they have in hospitals and airports? Are those off limits too?
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And why idolatry? Would it imply you were worshipping idols?
I mean I KNOW that idolatry is wrong ... but simply being in a place where people worship differently than you doesn't make you worship that way. I'm curious where this restriction got its start?
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1. I'd attend a church social function if I were invited. I would probably politely refuse a sermon or mass where the primary purpose was to "hear the word". However, if a relative or very close friend wanted me to come to a wedding, baptism, first communion, or something like that, I'd attend as a spectator, but not as a participant in the ritual itself.
2. I avoid places that advertise their Christianity. The only time I think it's appropriate is when the service or store is catering specifically to Christians, as in a Christian bookstore. In that case, it just makes sense. When businesses unnecessarily advertise their piety, it tends to raise my hackles. It's like they're saying "Shop here. We're Christian", implying that those who aren't are somehow inferior. I think it's important to note that I felt this way even when I considered myself religious, and for much the same reasons.
Rivka, I was surprised to learn that Orthodox Jews are forbidden to enter other places of worship. Is that for any reason? Could you not, for example, take a tour of the National Cathedral in DC? And what was the answer to the "foyer" question?
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I'm also curious if the restriction would extend to, say, the ruins of a temple of Zeus, or an Aztec pyramid.
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The type of signs this business puts up are those "clever" religious slogan type things. This weeks is "1 cross + 3 nails = 4given. Happy Easter!". Stuff like that. Never any of the hellfire and damnation stuff. I mean, they also have weeks where they have "Man who runs in front of car gets tired, man who runs behind car gets exhausted". So that's the thing, I don't get the impression they are pushy people. I can completely understand not wanting to go somewhere where you are preached to. That severly detracts from the enjoyability of ... whatever. And yes, these grandparents have been invited to just normal church services, and refused, which is understandable I suppose, again coming back to the fact that it simply wouldn't be enjoyable to be preached at, but when that lack of enjoyability outweighs the positive feelings you get from seeing your grandkids look absolutely adorable (and they really did. It was soo cute), that ... baffles me.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I disagree with the idea that you should stay away from places of worship if they are for a religion you don't believe in.
I don't think that's what rivka's saying -- if the prohibition in Orthodox Judaism is against idolatry and depictions of god are therefore inappropriate, then depictions of Jesus by members of a religion that claims he is the son of god would be idolatrous to Orthodox Jews, no?
quote:Oh come on... even McDonald's has more pushy advertising than that. How would you want them to advertise? "God may or may not exist - but come to Bible Study just in case!"
What's wrong with "Bible study group meets weekly at time X?"
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posted
I think there's something different between, "Bible study group meets weekly at time X" and, essentially, "Did you know that my beliefs are correct and yours are not?"
Don't you see the difference?
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posted
Given that I don't believe in god, it's false advertising.
Are you asking if I think there was something morally wrong with it, if it was against school regulations, or why I didn't like it? Those are three separate questions.
Added: As to question three, Chungwa's got it. Added 2: The answer to both of the first two questions is "no."
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posted
I'm not sure how accurately the "anti" religious title fits me or many that have posted on this thread. When I think anti-religion, I think KOM or other people that act agressively against religion. I think that non-religious is probably a better title for me and the way that I perceive many who have posted.
quote:If your grandchildren, or really anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church?
I wouldn't refuse to go. When my niece was being blessed, my sister asked me to attend and so I did. The entire family, on both sides, was coming and she wanted me to be there. I did not in any way feel that she was trying to convert me. My dad, on the other hand, frequently invites me to church events and his intent to convert is crystal clear. I can't imagine that any event would make me accept his invitation.
quote:And if you knew that a business was run by devout Christians, would you not go there solely for that reason?
As others have said, it would depend on how obnoxious they were about it. From what you described, I would have no problem.
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quote:I think there's something different between, "Bible study group meets weekly at time X" and, essentially, "Did you know that my beliefs are correct and yours are not?" Don't you see the difference?
It seems to me that you dislike people stating beliefs in their advertising that you disagree with. Although, by merely stating "God exists" one is certainly also including the thought "and those who don't believe that God exists are wrong," the same can be said of any statement of belief.
"Did you know that my beliefs are correct and yours are not?" is not the same as "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God!" The only way "yours are not" is included in that statement is because stating any positive belief carries an implicit statement that other beliefs inconsistent with the stated one are wrong.
It seems like your criticism, as stated, could be applied to any positive statement of belief.
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I don't agree. "The Lord is the everlasting God!" on its own would have been quite tolerable. The "Do you not know? Have you not heard?" is condescending, and is the irritant (for me, at least). That's why I replicated that part verbatim in my parody.
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Dag... how in the hell can you not see how that statement could be extremely offensive to someone who doesn't believe in god.
Just as his response was extremely offensive to anyone who does believe in god. The tone in that statement: "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God!" is basically "What, are you a moron? God exists! And he's your lord!"
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quote:I don't agree. "The Lord is the everlasting God!" on its own would have been quite tolerable. The "Do you not know? Have you not heard?" is condescending, and is the irritant (for me, at least). That's why I replicated that part verbatim in my parody.
Why, exactly? That's what I'm not getting here.
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quote:Dag... how in the hell can you not see how that statement could be extremely offensive to someone who doesn't believe in god.
Whoa, there, sparky. I've asked why it could be offensive. That should pretty clearly indicate that I don't see how it could be offensive.
You've also moved it up to "extremely offensive" with this response.
quote:Just as his response was extremely offensive to anyone who does believe in god. The tone in that statement: "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God!" is basically "What, are you a moron? God exists! And he's your lord!"
No, it's using evocative phrases from scripture.
I'm confused as to how "Did you not know" becomes "you moron."
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posted
I'm pretty sure the words are written that way because they are the direct lyrics of a song (and also directly taken from the Bible? Not sure, but I think so...) - presumably something that the target audience of that poster would recognize.
It's also a way of speaking that sounds very Biblical - sound of like saying "Thou Shalt".
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posted
Just FYI, that advertising was probably meant for exisitng Christians, not to convert anyone. The question/affirmation format is quite common, particularly around Easter. (Have you not heard? Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed!) They probably didn't even consider how it would sound to someone not familiar with the tradition.
(And now I've been delayed by a phone call and this post is probably way later. )
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I am an atheist but I often perform religious songs in Churches with choirs. I like them because often they are quite beautiful buildings with candles and stained-glass-windows and really great acoustics. I've been only once to a proper church service- to sing in a choir.
I suppose it doesn't bother me that much because I went to a church school when I was younger and (although I never was religious) I was taught by my parents to go along with it so I did spend some time learning about Christianity. We had a lovely old large medieval church nearby and on special occaisions we'd go as a school. Not to the service but for a school function. Anyway, the result was I learnt to appreciate churches in a secular way and so entering them in a secular capacity usually doesn't bother me. I do however, feel very uncomfortable at a religious service.
I also feel very uncomfortable when religion enters in to an otherwise secular environment, e.g. someone adding "God bless you" or something more non-denominational, especially since most of the time there are non-Christians present.
I guess my view of religion is that I'm in the middle of all religions. Organized religions are around the edges like the pointy bits on the circumfrence of a drawn sun. I suppose I don't feel that I would be as offended as other religions because I'm in the middle of them all by having none.
As for businesses, unless they were actively obnoxiously advertising, I don't care what religion they are. I would probably be somewhat wary of a place with signs and pictures everywhere just because it's not exactly open to anyone but whatever religion the advertisement is for. I would never work in an overtly religious environment.
I'm not Anti-Religion, and churches are lovely buildings and very useful for musical performances, but I don't like having religion publicized and advertised in my face. I also don't like people trying to convert me.
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Twinky, does the fact that the entire phrase, including the "Do you not know, have you not heard" part is a direct Bible quote make any difference? It's not just something the person making the posters made up to say "hey you dummies, what's wrong with you?"
Also, I think you didn't quite catch rivka's meaning in your explanation. I'm pretty sure it's considering Jesus divine in the first place that's the problem, not images (which most Protestant churches don't have anyway.) If you don't accept the premise that the One and Only God became flesh, then worshiping Jesus would be worshiping something other than said One and Only God. Hence, idolatry.
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You should keep in mind that when Christians say something like "Do you not know?", they are thinking of spreading their religious beliefs as literally telling "good news". It's "Do you not know?" as in "Do you not know? You just won the lottery!" The implication is not supposed to be that you are an idiot. The implication is supposed to be that they are excited to bring you such good news.
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posted
The fact that it uses phrases from scripture in a format Christians are familiar with doesn't change my opinion, no.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not that interested in what their intent was. My point in producing the parody was to demonstrate how the quote parses to anyone who is not immediately familiar with it -- which, I'm willing to guess, is the vast majority of the engineering student population attending UW.
To such a person, the implication of "Do you not know? Have you not heard?" is that the only ways you might not already believe in their religion are (1) you just haven't heard about it yet, or (2) you're some sort of heathen. The suggestion, then, is that both of these regrettable situations can be rectified with a quick visit to their meeting.
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But how do they know where to draw the line? If someone were to come into my house, there might be some rosaries and a crucifix or two around the living room. Maybe. Go to an interfaith area and there might be Jewish symbols and Christian symbols there(actually I have no idea if that could happen) or maybe the room is used for Christian prayer 12 hours a week and the rest of the time it is merely an empty room. And what's the difference between a foyer and the back of a church, other than a foot of space?
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quote:I'm not sure how accurately the "anti" religious title fits me or many that have posted on this thread.
Count me with Amanecer. I meant to bring this up in my previous post, but forgot. I don't consider myself "anti-religious" although I'm very much non-religious.
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quote:My point in producing the parody was to demonstrate how the quote parses to anyone who is not immediately familiar with it
An intent which probably failed, because those who are familiar with it probably thought you were simply altering scripture to spread your own message, which is very different from the way you interpreted it.
quote:To such a person, the implication of "Do you not know? Have you not heard?" is that the only ways you might not already believe in their religion are (1) you just haven't heard about it yet, or (2) you're some sort of heathen. The suggestion, then, is that both of these regrettable situations can be rectified with a quick visit to their meeting.
Only if you're reading a LOT into the questions.
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quote:To be perfectly honest, I'm not that interested in what their intent was.
Maybe, but you should be, if you are getting offended. If they are intentionally insulting you, then shame on them. If you are finding offense where there is none intended, and getting angry at them as a result, then shame on you.
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posted
I never said I was offended. I said I was irritated enough, over a period of four years, to produce a parody.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:To such a person, the implication of "Do you not know? Have you not heard?" is that the only ways you might not already believe in their religion are (1) you just haven't heard about it yet, or (2) you're some sort of heathen. The suggestion, then, is that both of these regrettable situations can be rectified with a quick visit to their meeting.
Only if you're reading a LOT into the questions.
I disagree completely. I think this is the natural implication to a native English speaker who is unfamiliar with the Bible.
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