quote:I'm standing among Christians, and something falls out of my pocket. Not thinking, I bend down to get it. Get it? That would be a huge desecration of God's Name...
Um, I'm going to have to say, No, I don't get it. Picking up something that has dust on it from the floor of a Christian church (I assume when you say you're standing among Christians you mean in a Church) means you're now guilty of idolatry? Or of desecrating God's name because something in your pocket now has "Christian dust" on it? Can dust possibly have any connection to idolatry? Isn't idolatry in the heart and actions of a person?
... Or am I totally misreading what you mean in saying that you can't drop something, surrounded by Christians, and then pick it back up and put it in your pocket?
I'm not trying to belittle anything, just really trying to understand the reasoning behind this, if there is any. And of course "God told us so" is a perfectly reasonable explanation, if that's all there is.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Well, if someone in a store put up a sign saying, "We Believe God is Almighty" I wouldn't have a problem shopping in the store so long as nobody who worked their starting talking about God to me.
I really don't think I'm a disagreeable person.
Posts: 367 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I read that (and I could be totally wrong) as bending over might give the appearance of genuflecting.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I'm standing among Christians, and something falls out of my pocket. Not thinking, I bend down to get it. Get it? That would be a huge desecration of God's Name...
Um, I'm going to have to say, No, I don't get it. Picking up something that has dust on it from the floor of a Christian church (I assume when you say you're standing among Christians you mean in a Church) means you're now guilty of idolatry?
No, the dust is just a metaphor. Part of the means by which Christians worship involves bowing down. If I were to bow down in a church, even for purposes other than worship, I would be committing an act of idolatry.
Many old monasteries were built with low doors, in order to force those entering to bow down. The act means something even without the intent.
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: Or of desecrating God's name because something in your pocket now has "Christian dust" on it? Can dust possibly have any connection to idolatry? Isn't idolatry in the heart and actions of a person?
Consider the monastery example. The idea isn't unique to Judaism, but yes, Judaism is very strongly built on law. We don't do things that are illegal and excuse them on the basis of intent.
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: I'm not trying to belittle anything, just really trying to understand the reasoning behind this, if there is any. And of course "God told us so" is a perfectly reasonable explanation, if that's all there is.
Maybe I'm not explaining it well. We hold that there are certain actions which are inherently idolatrous, and other actions which are contextually idolatrous. The rabbis give an example of an idol whose worship involved defecation. And the law is that if I were to defecate on a statue of that idol, even if I did so with the intent of showing my contempt for it, I would be transgressing the prohibition against idolatry. Just the way it works.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I suppose there could be an issue with non-Jews getting the wrong idea, but that's not the primary one. If a Jew who doesn't know better sees me apparently eating a cheeseburger, he might conclude that he's allowed to eat a cheeseburger....
So Lisa, if I understand correctly, if a Jew were to see you in a Christian church, he might mistakenly get the idea that you accept Jesus as the Son of God, and therefore it's alright to be Christian. Is this where the concern about idolatry comes in? - that you might lead away your own people into thinking this is okay?
Yes, that's a big part of it. But there's also the legal issue of actually doing things that are, physically speaking, the same as methods of Christian worship in that place.
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I really didn't think of the "genuflecting" aspect of it because we really don't do it at my church. It just never occurred to me.
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1. We don't do a lot of genuflecting, and it's never called that, so the word genuflect reminds me of Tom Lehrer. I'm sorry.
2. It's not uncommon for there to be some things that someone will not do because it resembles something they would never do. I'm uncomfortable with those pretty bottles of sparkling apple cider because I think it looks like "I'd drink alcohol if I could, but I can't." Other people don't think it looks like that, and that's fine, but I think it does for me, so I won't. For that same reason, my mom never let us get the candy cigarettes as a kid.
I figure the Jews avoiding Christian churches is something like the same thing. Is that accurate?
Added: Oops, I missed the second page, so this has been covered a little bit. I think it fits. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Irregardless: Some of the supposed 'offendedness' on this thread seems a little over the top to me.
If I saw a billboard for Burger King that said "Haven't you heard? The Whopper is the best-tasting burger in town!", I would have little reason to take offense, even if I think Wendy's makes a superior product.
As I've said, I wasn't offended, so I assume that part isn't addressed at me.
Indeed, I had Alcon's comment more in mind.
quote:However, advertising a Whopper is quite different from advertising a religion -- in the latter case, the advertiser purports to have the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything, so to speak. In the former case, they're just saying their hamburger is the best one.
Yeah, so? In both cases, the reader is equally free to dismiss the claims and go on about his business.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: You're allowed to go into a mosque, rivka. Ask your rabbi, if you don't believe me.
If it comes up, I will ask. But my understanding is that it is not as universally accepted as you imply.
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: And what's the difference between a foyer and the back of a church, other than a foot of space?
There is inside the sanctuary (which is a space designated for worship, whether consecrated or not), and there is the space outside it.
And . . . my rabbi's initial reaction was that there really ISN'T a whole lot of difference, and that it might be better if I didn't go. And while I am glad that I did, I would be unlikely to do so again.
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: There's also an issue of what we call mar'it ayin, or giving the wrong impression. For example, I could make a soyburger and melt cheese on top of it, and that's completely permissible. A fake cheeseburger. But it's forbidden for me to sit outside and eat that fake cheeseburger, because it would give the impression to those who didn't realize it was a soyburger that I was eating a cheeseburger, and since I'm known to be an Orthodox Jew, that would be a Bad Thing.
Anything that is forbidden for reasons of ma'aris ayin is forbidden b'cheder chadarim -- in complete privacy. A soy cheeseburger that really looked like a meat one is a problem anywhere. Fortunately, most soy burgers really don't look much like meat. And most people are familiar enough with soy products that even if those that are fairly convincing are probably fine.
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Irregardless: That's harder to do when the claim is relevant to something important to you, which is why so many people get riled up by King of Men's posts.
As an aside, while I should have said "addressed to," is "addressed at" still correct? I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be, but for some reason it parses as wrong to me.
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quote:which is why so many people get riled up by King of Men's posts.
Do people still? I thought, for the msot part, we'd finally come to a point of realizing 'Oh, that's just KoM. He always does that.' and moved on.
In some ways it's the same as a church that routinely puts those pithy, sometimes silly, Jesus messages on their billboards by the road. I guess the first time you see it, if it offends you, you go ICK. But after you've driven past that same church 600 times, it's just "Oh that's just them. They always do that."
Back to the original post of this thread: I'd be disappointed in grandparents who were so adamantly atheist they felt they couldn't come see their grandchild in a church play. It's not like their god is telling them that it's idolatry (a concept I strongly respect, though it hadn't occurred to me previous to reading this thread). It's that they're so prejudiced against churches they love their prejudice more than their grandchild. That's how I'd have to interpret it unless they could explain it otherwise.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hang on, hang on. I hereby define the religion of Hatrackism; its worship involves posting on Hatrack. There is no God but Hatrack, and KoM is its prophet! Yea, verily, all the faithful shall post at least thrice a day, lest they be cast into the furnace of Ornery, where there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Have I just prohibited all practising Jews from posting on Hatrack? If not, why not, and how much 'religion-ness' would I need to add to Hatrackism?
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Well, that answers the first question, but I'd like to point out that Hatrackism has a lot of followers, in the sense that there are plenty of people who post thrice a day.
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Regarding mar'it ayin. I am a home care nurse, and I spend my day going from one patient's house to another. I prefer not to ask my patients to use their bathrooms when I am just there for a visit. If I need to use a bathroom, I will stop into a Dunkin' Donuts and use theirs (in New Jersey, we have a Dunkin' Donuts placed conveniently every mile or so -- every town seems to have at least one -- and some of them are even Kosher). Often, I'll even get me a cup of coffee, too.
But today it is Passover. There is nothing at Dunkin' Donuts (not even the coffee) for me. And, of course, I needed to use the bathroom. I made an exception to my policy of not asking my patients to use their bathrooms, because I didn't want anyone seeing an Orthodox Jew going into the Dunkin' Donuts on Pesach. It would just look wrong.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Huh. I would have absolutely NO problem going into a Dunkin' Donuts to use the bathroom during Pesach. I have gone into McDonaldses and Burger Kings to use theirs on occasion -- and I imagine plenty of travelers stop in places just to use the bathroom.
Wild, isn't it? I did a search on lifnei iveir to get the verse, and that came up. I was blown away.
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quote:Part of the means by which Christians worship involves bowing down.
Part of the means by which Christians worship involves respiration and circulation, too.
For the purposes of Jewish law, I think we can let Jewish law determine what's significant and what isn't. Don't you?
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quote:And . . . my rabbi's initial reaction was that there really ISN'T a whole lot of difference, and that it might be better if I didn't go. And while I am glad that I did, I would be unlikely to do so again.
Can you share why not? I understand if it's too personal to share details. Is it because of the building, or the service itself? I.E. Would you attend a Christian wedding that was outside, say, in a park somewhere? Or in a Moose lodge or something?
Would you attend a completely a-religious commitment ceremony of two men?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Regarding mar'it ayin. I am a home care nurse, and I spend my day going from one patient's house to another. I prefer not to ask my patients to use their bathrooms when I am just there for a visit. If I need to use a bathroom, I will stop into a Dunkin' Donuts and use theirs (in New Jersey, we have a Dunkin' Donuts placed conveniently every mile or so -- every town seems to have at least one -- and some of them are even Kosher). Often, I'll even get me a cup of coffee, too.
But today it is Passover. There is nothing at Dunkin' Donuts (not even the coffee) for me. And, of course, I needed to use the bathroom. I made an exception to my policy of not asking my patients to use their bathrooms, because I didn't want anyone seeing an Orthodox Jew going into the Dunkin' Donuts on Pesach. It would just look wrong.
I feel the same way. I mean, my rav once explained that getting a Coke at McDonalds isn't technically a violation of mar'it ayin, but it feels weird, and I imagine that even if it's okay to go into a Dunkin' Donuts during Pesach, I still wouldn't.
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Heh. KarlEd, you're mixing issues. When Havah and I had our commitment ceremony, it was anything but "a-religious", and while many of our friends who were also Orthodox came, some didn't, because they didn't feel comfortable doing so. But that's because of the gay issue, and isn't the same thing.
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Some Mormons should be able to relate to that, starLisa. After all, there are many Mormons who won't drink caffeinated sodas even though they are not explicitly forbidden.
Edit, this was in response to your second post above this one.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Heh. KarlEd, you're mixing issues. When Havah and I had our commitment ceremony, it was anything but "a-religious", and while many of our friends who were also Orthodox came, some didn't, because they didn't feel comfortable doing so. But that's because of the gay issue, and isn't the same thing.
Well, I'm not really so much mixing issues as I am asking separate questions. That's the reason for the new paragraph for the second question.
I guess I could have qualified my question with "is it forbidden" or "advised against", or "is it against Jewish law to", since as the questions stand rivka could respond simply with her personal preference that had nothing to do with being a Jew. So, for the record, I'm asking in terms of Law. Please feel free to answer with personal preference, if you want. I'd just like to know which is which.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Wild, isn't it? I did a search on lifnei iveir to get the verse, and that came up. I was blown away.
Just goes to prove, sooner or later, EVERYTHING ends up on wikipedia. (Heck, my dad even has a page there.)
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Can you share why not? I understand if it's too personal to share details. Is it because of the building, or the service itself? I.E. Would you attend a Christian wedding that was outside, say, in a park somewhere? Or in a Moose lodge or something?
It was the service itself, so probably not.
quote:Would you attend a completely a-religious commitment ceremony of two men?
No. [Edit based on Karl's clarification above: I consider this both a question of Law and my own comfort, but I am not willing to debate this with sL. Again.]
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: . . . it feels weird, and I imagine that even if it's okay to go into a Dunkin' Donuts during Pesach, I still wouldn't.
Which I entirely understand, and there are plenty of things that are perfectly ok that I won't do because they make me uncomfortable. I just distinguish between things I choose not to do and things I may not do.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: I do hope I don't offend anyone with this title. If it does offend you, let me know and I'll change it ASAP. My question shouldn't really be that controversial. It's just something I thought of on my drive home tonight.
Two things spurred this thought. First off, for yesterdays Easter service, my church focused quite a bit on kids. There were numerous musical numbers... it was really very cute. One of my friends had 3 little siblings in the performance, and her parents had asked their parents (grandparents to my friend and the little performers) to come watch the kids. The grandparents are devoutly atheist, and from what I gather, very anti-religious. They didn't come. Secondly, there is this storage facility that I pass on my drive home that has quite a prominent marquee. About 50% of the time, this marquee has blatant Christian messages on it. I thought to myself, "I wonder if they lose any business because of that".
So my question is, how deep do your anti-religious (or anti-Christian) feelings go? If your grandchildren, or really anyone you loved, was performing in a church, would you refuse to go on the sole grounds that it was a church? And if you knew that a business was run by devout Christians, would you not go there solely for that reason?
Yes i would refuse to go, not because it involes going to a church but listening to an hour+ sermon would cause me to go suicidal. If you taped or i only had to go for the part where the relative was perform that'd be fine. My general views on athiesim(is that spelled right?) are that, yes i'm an athiest, i recognise that you're a religous person, that's fine with me, i respect that. But as soon as you start trying to push religion on me we have a a problem. You leave me alone and i'll leave you alone. *shrug*
Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: but listening to an hour+ sermon would cause me to go suicidal.
Fortunately, not too many churches have hour+ sermons. I think that went out with the pilgrims.
I know when i was a kid and my mom would drag me to church(3-4 times a year) they were always at least an hour
Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: There will be* once it's legal for me, so don't hold your breath. But you'll definitely get an invite, Tante.
Whoo Hoo! You know what you've just got to do? Have the two grooms on the top of the cake.
I wouldn't have the bride-and-groom thing on my cake, because my husband uses a wheelchair, and I couldn't find a wheelchair groom. The closest I could find was a groom carrying the bride (over-the-threshhold style), but no bride carrying the groom. We had flowers on the cake.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I wish Hatrack allowed custom titles, and not just that boring 'Member' and 'New Member' stuff. "The Mad Prophet", that's me!
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:There are also many people who breathe. And eat.
But there are also many people who bend over in Christian churches, and not all of them worship Christ.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Wild, isn't it? I did a search on lifnei iveir to get the verse, and that came up. I was blown away.
Just goes to prove, sooner or later, EVERYTHING ends up on wikipedia. (Heck, my dad even has a page there.)
Really? How cool. I'm mentioned in a couple of discussion pages on Wikipedia (Book of Esther and Egyptian Chronology, I think), but thank God, no actual article. Though my rav from when I lived in Israel does have an article on him.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Huh. I would have absolutely NO problem going into a Dunkin' Donuts to use the bathroom during Pesach. I have gone into McDonaldses and Burger Kings to use theirs on occasion -- and I imagine plenty of travelers stop in places just to use the bathroom.
See, I just can't go into a store, use the bathroom, and not buy anything. I feel guilty.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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some of our best artwork and Music was paid for by the church, and was created by athiest artists. I think it's too bad that the church does not support the arts like it once did.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: It's that they're so prejudiced against churches they love their prejudice more than their grandchild.
I think that there could be a lot more to it than that. We know very little about this situation and your conclusion seems a bit presumptuous. See KarlEd's post on the bottom of the second page.
quote:you don't have to pretend to pray to be polite. If you just sit quietly and are not disruptive, that would be even more polite.
kmboots, I am curious about this. When I am around people that are praying, I feel it would be rude to not bow my head. It would be hard to distinguish my bowed head from the bowed head of somebody who was actually praying. Would you prefer that I not bow my head?
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