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Everyone is talking about the gay marriage vote this week. But that is definitely not the only controversial vote to be held in Congress. Though I never plan on burning my nation's flag in protest, it really bothers me that it could be banned. It seems like such a blatant violation of the first amendment.
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I still don't get the desire for a flag-burning amendment. It makes no sense beyond blatant jingoism
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Looks like it's time for me to roll out my patented non-flammable exploding flags! After numerous attempts at lighting them a chemical reaction occurs that causes the nitrocellulose to flare up...and BANG! No ammendment needed once enough people have lost fingers...
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I'm not so bothered of burning US flags in the US, that's the natural right to protest. But when you burn Mexican flags, or Iraki flags... That's not cool.
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Has that started to become common here Robin? I haven't heard of it, but to be honest, I've kind of been in a 'tune-out the news' period for the last couple months.
Also, I would assume that it would not be cool when they burn US flags in Iran (although perfectly within their rights of course).
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I can't remember which government building it was in Iran, or if it was an Iranian embassy somewhere, but some Iranian government building had a giant American flag draped over the floor of the lobby to enter the building. Thus, anyone who wanted to get into or out of the building had to walk over the flag to get in and out.
Ignore Robin, he/she is the new crazy guy on the corner trying to sell fish hooks and peg legs. Says some crazy stuff, but mostly it's either gibberish or a lure.
The whole debate over flag burning seems less like an argument over free speech than an argument over a definition of patriotism. Is the flag a sacred icon of patriotism, such that it cannot be burned and is considered sacrosanct? I find our worshipping of the flag to border on disturbing. Or is it an icon of freedom, such that it can be burned to protest what might be a violation of the very things the flag is supposed to stand for?
In any case, I think the argument, considering what else is before us, and what else is wrong with this country, is so ridiculous, it borders on irresponsible.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ignore Robin, he/she is the new crazy guy on the corner trying to sell fish hooks and peg legs. Says some crazy stuff, but mostly it's either gibberish or a lure.
In any case, I think the argument, considering what else is before us, and what else is wrong with this country, is so ridiculous, it borders on irresponsible.
I agree with you on both points. Stupid election year theatrics.
I told myself that I wouldn't respond to Robin any more, I outta slap my knuckles with a ruler.
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Why do people call it election year theatrics when its next year that the real campaigning takes place?
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I'd rather they try to pass this amendment than the anti-gay marriage one. It has less chance of passing and would significantly impact fewer people's lives even if it did.
Of course, I'd rather they drastically slash the size and power of the federal government, but I've pretty much given up on that. They'll just grow it *slightly* slower than the dems.
Guess I'll go buy an Island and set up my own country. Pixtopia. Who's with me?
I believe all 50 state legislatures have passed resolutions calling for Congress to propose the amendment for ratification. It's likely that the 38 states needed for passage will be easy to come by.
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the first day I burn an American flag in protest is the day on which they make it illegal to do so.
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quote:Of course, I'd rather they drastically slash the size and power of the federal government, but I've pretty much given up on that.
I'd go for that.
The first thing I'd do to reduce the size and power of the federal government: Destroy all programs like No Child Left Behind that consist of the federal government taxing the citizens, and then handing that money back to the states if only the states will toe the line and do what the federal government wants.
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quote:Destroy all programs like No Child Left Behind that consist of the federal government taxing the citizens, and then handing that money back to the states if only the states will toe the line and do what the federal government wants.
An astonishing number of federal handouts come with strings attached. And because the federal government perceives a benefit to the strings, the pain of eliminating these programs would cut both ways.
But, yes, I agree that it's absolutely necessary.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It seems that most flag-burning is done to be seen, with plenty of witnesses.
Yeah, but do they count the stars and stripes before it's put to the torch? Usually it's not spread out - just kind of hanging off a pole, with only about a third of the surface visible.
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Surely the point of any flag-burning demonstration is that it is recognisably the American Flag being burned. The exact number of stripes cannot matter! The question, surely, must be whether the witnesses recognised the intent of the burner. And really, if you're going to burn a flag as a protest, then it would be pretty stupid to claim afterwards that it wasn't the 'real' flag. If it wasn't, why the devil were you burning it, anyway?
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the first day I burn an American flag in protest is the day on which they make it illegal to do so.
Let me know, and I'll burn one with you.
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Do I hear the sounds of a BurnCon being made?
quote:Fish hooks and peg legs?
The point is, which you sort of caught and sort of missed, that it's gibberish, which is what constitutes most of your posts.
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quote:Surely the point of any flag-burning demonstration is that it is recognisably the American Flag being burned. The exact number of stripes cannot matter! The question, surely, must be whether the witnesses recognised the intent of the burner.
I'd love to see someone draft a law that overcomes the vagueness issue but punishes based on "similarity" to the flag.
Not to mention that the amendment as worded speaks of the flag. Most likely, the justices will interpret it very narrowly, such that the Constitution only allows banning of actual flags.
quote:And really, if you're going to burn a flag as a protest, then it would be pretty stupid to claim afterwards that it wasn't the 'real' flag. If it wasn't, why the devil were you burning it, anyway?
Because it's all about the symbolism, and they can stick it to the man one more time.
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quote:Destroy all programs like No Child Left Behind that consist of the federal government taxing the citizens, and then handing that money back to the states if only the states will toe the line and do what the federal government wants..
I was thinking about this last night, and, while I'd love for the government to be about a third the size it currently is, and hand that power back to the states, the fact is that the government is a huge employer. So doing something like what I'd like to see could have downright disastrous effects on the economy and job market.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the first day I burn an American flag in protest is the day on which they make it illegal to do so.
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I have burned an American flag in order to retire it. We first removed the shield from the flag, and then respectfully burned it. I wonder if the wording would criminalize acts like that.
I can also envision people cashing in on such a law and selling flags specifically to be turned which are recognizably American, but which are different enough that they are not technically American flags. Maybe the red and white could be reversed, or maybe one too few or many stripes or stars.
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I hope the thing passes if only so it can be seen who the idiots are that will burn flags in spite.
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I am not a supporter of such an ammendment.
I think that the flag is somwhat a sacred icon.
I think it is shameful for any American patriot to burn or disrespect the American flag, even if it's to protest such a law.
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I'm against a flag burning amendment... but god.. I couldn't burn a flag... not even to protest the law. I can't even tell you guys to knock yourselves out and have fun.
Regardless of what the flag means to you guys, to me it means more than just America. It means freedom in general. And I can't burn that.
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Yes, but part of that freedom (a very important part, I might add), is freedom of expression. Flag burning, whether or not people like it, is an expression, and while I can't ever conceive of a scenario under which I personally would burn a flag I think it's important that we have that choice.
Part of the first amendment is allowing others even speech you might find offensive.
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JT: That's exactly why I'm against the amendment. But I'm not going to endorse flag burning either.
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Yeah, halfway through my post I realized that we were in total agreement. But I had to much inertia to stop.
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I have a very strong feeling that this amendment is going to pass the Senate. Have the days of protesting from the 60s and 70s come to an end? Will anyone bother to try and stand up for the first amendment?
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I think that burning a flag (not rowdily, but not as an act of disposal) in protest of an attempt to amend the constitution to make such an act illegal is an act of respect.
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quote:Regardless of what the flag means to you guys, to me it means more than just America. It means freedom in general.
It will mean "freedom" to me only as long as we remain free to burn it.
The day this country becomes so self-reverent that it codifies venerance for its symbols into the law, to remove our right to disrespect it if necessary or even desired, the flag will no longer mean "freedom" any more than AMERICAN will mean "free."
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Apparently, the Republicans are only going to allow the American flag to be burned when it's wrapped around married homosexuals.
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<derailment> Veneration- 1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person 2 : the act of venerating
I couldn't find a definition for venerance. Is that something you need to get checked out at a clinic? </derailment>
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Tom: I think you should have the right to burn it. I just really really really wish you wouldn't.
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Like I said, it won't be an issue unless they're dumb enough to make it illegal. And then I pretty much have to burn one, no matter how bad I'd feel about it. It'd dishonor the country to honor the flag, by that point.
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If you HAVE to, you're not free to choose not to. Your lack of choice to burn the flag is what you're protesting. This seems self defeating to me. (good luck on parsing that...)
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Pix: think of it like being in a situation where you love someone so much you have to let him or her go.
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