posted
Hatrack's greatest success has always been, at least since I started lurking and then posting, its cohesive yet inclusive atmosphere based on certain common features, combined with an inherent appreciation for life which allowed the community to celebrate each member's joys and mourn with each suffering. This stable community has been a safe island amid a sea of troubles, as we looked out on an often frightening world.
These virtues, however, have always come at the price of an unfortunate and persistent level of groupthink. Oh, we disagreed on countless issues, but a general outlook on life was shared among us.
Such a safe-haven could not but attract our jealous and paranoid fears that it would cease to be, like so many have before it, and this fear, I believe, led to a troubling out lash against the "other," we having previously dichotomized the world as is the human will.
When we saw that which was not us enter among us, we rejected it harshly. How many of us have left this communion and how many of been forced off?
I have always been vaguely aware of these problems, but I placed them in a dark and forgotten corner of my mind, as I believe many of us have. However, these thoughts came rushing back to me in a most painful manner as I began to feel myself being pushed out. It is not my desire to leave Hatrack, nothing could be further from my intention, I believe that we can make this community work, if we all agree to disagree in love and not in hatred and to hold certain levels of civility in our interactions.
quote: Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars, until I die. It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles, And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in the old days Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal-temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
And as for me,
quote:We shall live through this together, Excalibur! They, you, and I! And may God have mercy on us all!
posted
An outlook based on humanism and, most especially, the value of the community, this community and communities in general.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
The only people I've ever wanted to push out have been obnoxious people, who speak derisively of those with different opinions. I've certainly never held anybody's newness against him or her, nor even really seen it done by anyone else. On the contrary, over and over again I've seen intelligent, articulate newbies become the flavor of the month. Heck, I remember being that flavor myself.
I also think you're being way overdramatic.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Pel has egg all over his face, and despite numerous attempts to tel him WHY he is perceived as pompous and arrogant he is taking a swan dive from Hatrack.
All the while claiming to be forced out.
Get over yourself, Pel. You aren't even a blip on the screen let alone a divisive force splitting us apart.
Quote Ulysses all you want, it still doesn't make you more intelligent than others here at Hatrack, or make your posts easy to read.
And all the whining, couched in prose or not, won't change that.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Someone please help me understand... Pelegius feels a push to stop contributing because of previous views (and the manner in which they were) posted? And is now airing it out?
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Some people don't like his posting because he used to call anybody who wasn't liberal, including Orson Scott Card, a bigoted idiot. I haven't seen him do that lately, but some people criticize his style because he attempts, with middling success, to sound like a sneering eighteenth century university professor, complete with extraneous phrases in other languages and references to long dead philosophers. So now he's playing the card that many people play when they aren't welcomed with open arms, the "you're mean to me because I'n new" card. (Never mind that he's been here over a year.) Now, the fact is that there are people who have been tolerant of his posting style and hoping to see him be a little less condescending, but he doesn't notice that. It is also quite easy to look through the first couple of pages of threads and see examples that Hatrackers are not unwelcoming to newbies. But everytime someone sounds the "oldbies are mean" trumpet, some people will charge out to distance themselves from that stereotype by agreeing that all newbies are victimized here. It happens every six months or so, and gets pretty tiresome.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I might be chiming in on a subject I should stay away from... but...
I'm new. I've said a few things that people seemed to disagree with. (One that sticks out most is my 'writing style' - I like to use all lowercase - it was explained to me that it's appreciated to use proper grammar - I adapted) That's part of being in a community - it's a give and take learning process.
I didn't register to start a new forum. I registered because I like what was here before and wanted to become a part of it. If I hadn't liked it or had wanted to create something different, I would have started a new forum.
I don't mean to say Pelegius' feelings are or aren't valid. I don't really know much about the issue other than what I've just read. I just mean to point out how I feel as a 'new' member of Hatrack.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
cmc, It is not an issue of "newness," but one of difference and identity. Icarus, who brought "newness" into the discussion has admitted that I am not new, although he still paints my complaints as those of one who is.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: cmc, It is not an issue of "newness," but one of difference and identity. Icarus, who brought "newness" into the discussion has admitted that I am not new, although he still paints my complaints as those of one who is.
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I am posting this here because these problems are more notable on this side.
The first and greatest problem is the degree of cruelty shown to new members by old ones, even after they have stayed for some time. This is, of course, not true of all members, but it is too prevalent to ignore.
The second is the tendency of some members to react immaturely and rudely to people whose views they disagree with. Calling someone a troll, a jackass, or anything similar neither impresses others with your rhetorical skills nor proves your point, quite the opposite in fact. [From the thread "Two Serious Problems with Hatrack," dated January 13th, 2006]
EDIT TO ADD: As was said to you then, people responded to your behavior, not to your newness or "differentness." As was noted then, the mean old established members of Hatrack don't agree on a blessed thing, so the charge of groupthink is absurd.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
We agree that the mean old established members of Hatrack might or might not agree on whether the mean old established members of Hatrack agree on a blessed thing.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The only things I think Hatrackers agree on is that grammar and spelling and good writing is important, being mean is bad, and fluff is at least occaionally a good thing. People who can't discourse in an intelligent and civil manner, and who can't take a joke don't last here that long. In case you're wondering, Pel, you've come under fire for that "good writing and grammar" part.
Also, if you'd ever peeked into a religion, politics, homosexuality, or abortion thread, you'd realize that there are some wildly divergent views here about life, the universe, and everything.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
There are no fewer than four of these whiney threads on the front page right now. I'm tired of them.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Jhai, I am sorry that you feel that way, really. I do not, however, believe that my grammar is exceptionally poor.
Zeugma, there are indeed four threads started by me, two on the subject of youth, one on immigration and one on Hatrack. I would be the first to admit that that any thread started by me tends to quickly deviate from the intended topic, usually into a series of critiques and attacks on me. I can assure you that this is never my intent in starting threads and causes me as much annoyance as it does you.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Not responding to any comment in particular...
This is FUN for me. I enjoy it. It's a way to unwind. It's a way for me to converse with people on a level I haven't been able to find yet in the new place I've moved to.
Maybe sometimes if a critique or attack on you (Pelegius) comes up, speak your peace/piece and then let it alone. The topics seem to change a lot and if you don't perpetuate the replies posted, maybe the attacking sentiment will fade and Hatrack will be more enjoyable?
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Pel - see one of Orinco's posts on page 2 of your Prometheus thread for a very good example of some of the problems with your grammar. I don't think your grammar is "exceptionally poor," but in your haste to write five-line sentences, things often get a bit... confused.
Incidentally, you never replied to my comment on the inaccuracies on the initial post in that thread. If you'd like, we can try to get that conversation back on track, and debate the, well, many issues that your brought up.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Your grammar is not exceptionally poor. There are people on Hatrack with worse grammar. (It is also not good.) You certainly shouldn't be picked on for it. I think people mostly point it out because it is incongruous with the tone you tend to try to take. I do think you could be accepted and liked here; in fact, I think you have made strides in that direction for what it's worth.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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We like you just fine, but you are treating other people as if they are beneath you, and then you come whimpering around like a wounded puppy when people don't take a shine to you.
It's just too much of this and not enough of a real person to interact with.
If we're just an excercise for your over-wrought intellect, where's the fun for us?
First you tried to pass it off as we (and the world in general) just don't "get" young people. But the fact is we have had several young members here for years, they practically grew up here.
And we've had young members who acted like complete jerks and we struggled with them and (some of us) tried to help them become productive members. And one or two of them have done so.
You are obviously intelligent. We'd love to have real conversations with you.
But if you're going, just go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
If you're staying. Stay. And be less of a pompous blowhard and more of a human being.
Take your pick.
Or just keep doing what your doing and more and more of us will just ignore you until finally, you realize you're just talking to yourself anyway.
People are still willing to invest in you. You seem interesting enough. Take it as a compliment. Feel good about yourself. And join in.
Be a part of the community. Sometimes you'll stand out. Sometimes you won't. Sometimes people will praise you or seek you out. Sometimes they'll think you don't have a lot to add on any particular topic.
posted
Hey, you managed to spell "its" without using an apostrophe. That's good grammar by Internet standards.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: And we've had young members who acted like complete jerks and we struggled with them and (some of us) tried to help them become productive members.
And one or two of them have done so.
I think I've come quite a long way, myself. At least, I stopped whining.
Edit:
This was probably not the best time for me to chime in. But I just wanted to clarify that the line "At least, I stopped whining," was not in reference to you, Pelegius, in anyway whatsoever.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Pelegius, on occasion I've posted serious topics that quickly dropped off page one and drifted away into oblivion. Oh well--I guess people just weren't interested in that topic. Most of what I've posted has been fluff, and I've been surprised at how often those silly fluff threads have gone on for pages.
In your case, you have posted topics that provoked a certain response--specifically, negative reactions to your posting style. Understandably, you got a bit defensive. But I've never seen any indication that you were asking, "gee, could there be anything about the way I write/post that is provoking this hostile response?"
Instead, you write further things like this:
quote: Such a safe-haven could not but attract our jealous and paranoid fears that it would cease to be, like so many have before it, and this fear, I believe, led to a troubling out lash against the "other," we having previously dichotomized the world as is the human will.
Just what is the "other"? You can say that you are posting a topic "about Hatrack," but it seems that most everyone here is interpreting it to be "Pelegius's feelings about his experience on Hatrack." Threads such as your "I give up" one, specifically addressing the criticisms you've received on your writing style, lend credence to this.
So, back to "the other." You seem to be saying that we are identifying you and/or your ideas as "the other" and are all turning against you. That you are the object of our paranoid and jealous fears. Well, phooey. You are being criticized because you are going on the offensive after feeling attacked, and because you've said things in a way that people find off-putting.
If people haven't engaged in the type of discussion you were trying to provoke, perhaps it would be better to ask what about your rhetorical style is lacking rather than drawing conclusions about the "groupthink" of the Hatrack community. Hint: this isn't a homogeneous group of shallow people incapable of considering issues from any other viewpoint than that of the "party line." Because there is no party line.
The fact that I'm even posting on this thread does not mean that I've joined the mass "dogpile Pelegius" groupthink message being beamed through cyberspace. There's no vast right- or left-wing conspiracy here. It means that I've read through several threads of you complaining about ill treatment and then going on the defensive and not really listening to anything anyone says in response--and there have been some really clear, well-meant, and helpful explanations that could do you some good. I suspect that there are arenas other than Hatrack where you're misunderstood. If you listen, you might start to understand why.
I, for one, don't want you to bid Hatrack adieu. You obviously spend a lot of time pondering weighty issues. I hope you stay and keep posting and, more importantly, reading. Don't expect us to bow down and admire your great wisdom and insights. Ask questions if you want to be a catalyst for interesting discussions, and make sure your readers understand the central point you want to discuss and the main question you are presenting for debate--don't let it get lost in a sea of words and ideas. (Tom Davidson gave you some great advice about this on the first page of your Prometheus Bound thread.)
And you know, if you don't get the reaction you expect from a post--just let it drop off the page, OK? It's not because Hatrackers are shallow or have something against you.
Edit: Bob Scopatz got to the heart of what I wanted to say, but much more clearly and concisely. He's a great example of how to communicate clearly on a forum.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
SteveRogers, fwiw, I don't remember you being anything but a fairly constructive discussant. Maybe 'cuz it's been more than 2 months and my memory is like Swiss cheese. But, anyway, I don't think of you as being any particular age, and I don't recall thinking that you were annoying or whiney at any point.
And I'm not going to use the search engine to find out if you were.
posted
I wasn't...whiney. But I had a knack for being untruthful. Old habits die hard. But I haven't lied on here...in a long time. Not since the begining.
I'm much better.
Also, what does "fwiw," abbreviate? That's a new one for me, and I'm totally clueless.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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First you tried to pass it off as we (and the world in general) just don't "get" young people. But the fact is we have had several young members here for years, they practically grew up here.
I was seventeen when I joined. That was, goodness, four years ago. I've grown up here. I've largely grown up because of hatrack.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
The grammar thing I could care less about, but the writing style....do you actually talk to people like that? I think many people here on Hatrack would understand you more if you just said what you were thinking....just come right out with it, and don't dress it up in pretty words as if you were writing poetry.
Just talk.
Read what you have written out loud, then ask yourself if you would actually have a conversation with someone that sounds even remotely similar. My guess is your friends and the people you go to school with would look at you as if you had sprouted a second head that was day-glow orange with sky blue polka dots if you spoke to them the way you speak here. I think if you just make it simple, you will be more easily understood, and your interactions with other Hatrackers will be more enjoyable for them and for you.(IMHO)
Posts: 325 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I was truthfully thinking of replying the same - but was going to throw in 'milk' just for fun...
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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