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Author Topic: Harry Potter Marked as Equal
MOL 3Earth
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I was reading through some threads elsewhere the other day and I saw one that stated roughly "Harry is marked as Voldemorts equal by the scar". So I think, no the scar can't be what marked him as an equal. In fact there is nothing physical that I can think of that Voldemort marked him with. So either the 'mark him as his equal' criteria is figurative, or I was thinking that harry still has to be marked, so maybe in the last standoff with Voldemort, Harry will be marked with something, or even more mind boggling, what if in the fight, Harry dies, but Voldemort is still stripped of his powers and receives a lighting scar on his forehead. This would be an interesting twist because Voldemort would be powerless and able to be captured and stand trial and whatsuch, but also it would mark Harry as an equal but almost the other way around.

I know it is pretty far-fetched and the 'marked as an equal' thing is probably figurative, i.e. parseltounge, half-blood etc.. but it was a fun thought for me.

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Juxtapose
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quote:
So I think, no the scar can't be what marked him as an equal.
Why not? That's almost exactly how I remember interpreting it.

Welcome to Hatrack, by the way. [Wave]

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MOL 3Earth
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I know, that was what i thought too. But when i read it that time i thought, wait, how does Harry getting a lightning scar mark him as an equal? Voldemort has no such scar. so it might not be an equal marking since it doesnt mean anything. unless we are told more in the 7th book I for the moment am going to say that the lightning scar doesnt mark him as an equal until I hear from Rowling that it does. lol.

well thanks, but i have actually been here for months I just very rarely post.

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Juxtapose
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Ahh, so you have. Should have looked at the post count AND the date registered.

Silly me. [Blushing]

As far as the scar thing, the way I read it, it was almost as though Voldemort made Harry his equal by attacking him and subsequently giving him that scar. Had he not done so, Harry would have not been able to stop him (at least not in the way it happened). At the very least, Voldemort would have had no trouble killing him at the end of Goblet of Fire.

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MOL 3Earth
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No offense taken:)

Yea everyone says that Voldemort MADE Harry his equal with the attack, but that is a figurative equal. giving him the scar, that, as I've said, doesnt make him equal because Voldy has no scar. Harry was able to stop him because of the love his mother shielded him with, Dumbledore believed that. And as for at the end of Goblet, the reason Voldemort couldn't kill Harry is because of the wands being sister wands, when wands like that meet, things go hay-wire and don't work. Dumbledore also explained that.

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Juxtapose
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You're right, giving him the scar didn't MAKE him equal. The crazy love protection interacting with the Avada Kedavra did that. The scar was just the physical manifestation of that, which is all a mark is.

The reason Harry was destined for Voldemort's sister wand is presumably because of the part of Voldemort's soul that's floating around Harry.

Also, you may want to add a spoiler warning to the title. I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't read the books that's going to, but it's still a good idea.

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MOL 3Earth
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i see what your saying and its completely valid but still i have the inkling that it may be a wierd hoax by rowling and she'll pull a twist in the end.

how do i edit the topic title to do that?

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Carrie
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It isn't the scar that makes Harry equal to Voldie; the scar represents that which makes Harry equal to Voldie. When Voldemort attacked the Potters and got the AK backlash, he also (I assume) transferred some powers to Harry (i.e. Parselmouth), which makes the two (supposedly) equal. I doubt it's a hoax, though. I do, however, wonder about "the power he knows not," and I really am hoping it's not love. What a predictable thing that would be.

It's also interesting to note that the two, as a result of the attack and ensuing scar, are equal in regards to their fame. Everyone knows Voldemort, even if the populace can't speak his name - and everyone also knows Harry Potter. I highly doubt that this is the equality of which the prophecy speaks, but it's fun to note. [Smile]

Juxtapose - right on regarding the brother wands. Are you another believer in the Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory?

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Narnia
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I actually just read that whole conversation last night.

quote:

"then -- it might not be me?" said Harry.

"I am afraid,' said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him a great effort, "that there is no doubt that is is you."

"But you said --Neville was born at the end of July, too -- and his mum and dad --"

"You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort...Voldemort himself would mark him as his equal. And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Nevill. he gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse."

"But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!"

"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry: he chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing) but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far -- something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved."

So in response to the query "Has he been marked?" I would say "Yes" based on the above excerpt. But I agree that the scar is only the outer manifestation of much more. Dumbledore explained just how Harry is Voldemort's equal in that last little speech. [Smile]
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Narnia
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Yeah, Carrie summed it all up faster than me. [Smile]
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Anna
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MOL : you can edit your title by editing the first post of the thread (with the button with a pencil and paper)
And I believe Harry was a horcrux, but not anymore since Voldie drank his blood to regain a body. Hence the light of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes when he learns about the drinking blood part.

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Juxtapose
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quote:
Are you another believer in the Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory?
I suppose, as much as I believe any prediction of where Rowling might go in the last book. [Smile]

My only problem with the theory is that, as I understand it, the spells to make a horcrux are amazingly complex and difficult, requiring a great deal of preparation. The Killing Curse is brutally simple, and the Lily's protection elegantly so. Trying to fit the production of a horcrux somewhere in there seems a difficult task to me.

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Narnia
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I agree Justapose. I'd love to believe that all of that was separate and not part of the horcrux plan. But, who knows?
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Carrie
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Maybe it was, like, the "accidental" Horcrux. [ROFL]

I'm only holding to the theory because it seems the best chance for Harry to go all noble-sacrifice on everyone and actually not survive the series.

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Juxtapose
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Very true. This is MAGIC after all. [Big Grin]

EDIT - whoops, that was for Narnia.

Carrie - Actually, my tragedy-loving emo side is also kind of hoping that Harry bites it.

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Anna
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According to my theory he could survive. But he doesn't have to survive or to die. It's all about choices...
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Juxtapose
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Do tell. [Smile]
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Anna
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I did in my post above. Harry was a horcrux since his parent's death, since he has his scar. However he is not one anymore. Voldie got that part of his soul back when he drank Harry's blood to have a new body at the end of HP4. Dumbledore is told to have triumph in his eyes when he hears about the blood part, so that would be an explanation - that Harry is not a horcrux anymore, so he doens't have to die to kill Voldie. However if he doesn't die I think it's likely he will come back very diminished from his last fight, Frodo-style, and probably be very different from the Harry we know.
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Juxtapose
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Sorry I missed your last post. I'm just not on top of things tonight.

That's an interesting theory. I'm gonna have to go back to Half-Blood Prince and read up on horcruxes again.

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Anna
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I should do that too. I have read it only twice I think, that's not enough.
As a matter of fact as we come closer to the end I may as well read the entire series again before the next book.

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Demonstrocity
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My tragedy-loving emo side is hoping that all the good guys die, and Voldemort wins.

My Chemical Romance does the soundtrack. Guest appearances (read: corpse-beatings) by Dashboard Confessional.

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Juxtapose
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Now THAT'S a children's book!
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Demonstrocity
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Given Rowling's original assertion that the books were meant to scale with the age of the readers, a contrived, self-absorbed emofest would be perfect, methinks.

Also, I hope you're waking up for class and not STILL awake.

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Phanto
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What on earth makes you think that Voldy used the avada kedavra on Harry's parents?
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Anna
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I don't have the books here, but doesn't it come from Harry's memory when the Dementors were close to him in book 3?
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BlackBlade
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If drinking the blood did indeed remove Harry's horocrux status why didnt Dumbledore mention that in his listing of both known and alleged Horocruxes to Harry in Book 6? Certainly the news that another horocrux was gone would increase Harry's spirits and confidence, and I don't think I can find a reason for why Dumbledore would not at least suggest the idea to Harry, considering he promised to be totally honest with Harry in Book 6.
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Anna
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Maybe he wasn't sure. Just a hope, you know? But a hope nevertheless. That would also match with the fact that there are no know artifact of Godric Gryffindor outside Hogwarts.
EDIT : maybe he wasn't even sure that Harry was a horcrux and didn't want him to imagine that in case it wasn't true.

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Bean Counter
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I have never liked the idea that a portion of Voldemort's power was "transfered", it seems to say Voldemort was diminished and Harry increased in some way. Better to say a number of Voldemort's abilities where copied into Harry. It then falls to each, using the same repertoire of gifts to fight in an even match where the proving factor will be style and preparation rather then innate gift. Of course Harry has the edge having a 'power' that Voldemort lacks, and that power can only be native to himself.

BC

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Phanto
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Dumbly is never totally honest, imo. Too secretive.
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Phanto:
What on earth makes you think that Voldy used the avada kedavra on Harry's parents?

The duel in the graveyard. Harry's parents emerge - in shadowy form - from Voldie's wand exactly as do Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce, at least the latter of whom we know for a fact died from the AK. Also key are Harry's flashbacks to the Halloween '81; after the "Stand aside, girl!" Voldie gave to Lily, I'm pretty sure there was a flash of green light.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Anna:
Maybe he wasn't sure. Just a hope, you know? But a hope nevertheless. That would also match with the fact that there are no know artifact of Godric Gryffindor outside Hogwarts.
EDIT : maybe he wasn't even sure that Harry was a horcrux and didn't want him to imagine that in case it wasn't true.

Doesnt mesh too well with the "Smile of Triumph" evidence. You'd think Dumbledore would be quite confident of Harry no longer being a horocrux if he was smiling in triumph.

BC: I like the idea that the abilities were copied better than a transfer too.

Heres a horrible idea I came up with. What if Voldemort posesses Ron or Hermione and forces Harry to kill one of them?

Or what if Harry while fighting Voldemort has to choose whether to continue fighting Voldemort while his friends are being killed/tortured by the cruicio curse?

Ill be honest, I do not expect Harry to come out of book 7 alive if he does not learn to start thinking rationally without letting his anger control him at all. He has come out of near death by his wits so often but just as often he has needless lost or almost died because he gets mad far too easily.

I won't be happy if this point is not addressed in book 7 and yet Harry still wins.

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Anna
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Dumbledore wasn't smiling. Harry saw triumph is his eyes. But he dismisses it saying he must have imagined it. Knowing JK Rowling I very much doubt it.
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BlackBlade
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It will be interesting, once the last book is complete, to go over the books and look for loose ends that were not tied up.

In other news M. Night. Shamalayan might be directing either movie 6 or movie 7! [Smile]

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/718/718799p1.html

I know this is slightly older news to some of the more devoted fans but nobody made mention of it.

I would really enjoy seeing his take on a Harry Potter movie, especially as the books approach their dark nadire and triumph. I wonder if he would do movie 6 or movie 7 better. I suppose it all depends on whether 7 ends happily or sadly.

Either way I say give him a crack at it!

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Shawshank
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I like Shamalayan's movies okay- until the end. Because there's always some ridiculous twist that ruins the movie for me. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if he didn't actually write most (or all) of it himself like I think he has his other movies.
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cmc
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In my eyes, Voldemort screwed up with his whole attack on James and Lily... It seems to me that Harry acquired some of his talent while sharing none of his own (especially where he hadn't developed anything). I'm excited to see where JK takes the series... Will he go back to school, won't he? Will one of the two die, or will we be left wondering?

As far as the movies go, they've not (to me) lived up to the potential the books provided. While entertaining, I find myself thankful that I've read the book first after viewing each one...

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Bean Counter
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The movies do little to show Harry'e progress as a Wizard.

BC

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Lalo
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So I finally read The Half-Blood Prince tonight, and... wow. I'd before written off every HP book but 3 and 5 as worthless Harry-has-an-adventure! tripe, but Rowling's really starting to put them all together in cogent form.

R.A.B. must be Sirius' brother. What's more, I think we caught a glimpse of Hufflepuff's goblet, when Harry ran into Mundungus Fletcher in Hogsmeade. I went back and checked, and the only differences between that goblet and Hufflepuff's are that Hufflepuff's is gold with a badger emblem, and Black's is silver with a Black emblem -- both, I assume, easily magicked into alternate forms. The book also mentions that Sirius hated "those goblets," so it could be that Hufflepuff's is still at 12 Grimmauld Place -- presumably, along with the original locket.

So the ring and the diary are both destroyed. The locket, the goblet, the snake, and Voldemort himself remain. The last -- and this is just a guess, but I see others thought of it above -- I think might be Harry. Voldemort has the death of Lily Potter to enable a Horcrux enchantment, and the scar is definitely more a part of Voldemort than a part of Harry; it hurts him, often in response to Voldemort's presence, and has granted extraordinary insight into Voldemort's own mind.

I foresee Harry sacrificing himself to rid the world of Voldemort, after defeating Voldemort himself.

As far as Snape goes... I don't think he's evil. Towards the end, he's careful not to harm Harry at all, screaming that he is not a coward. My guess is he's doing all he can to get close to Voldemort before turning on him, probably when Voldemort's about to kill Harry, then being destroyed himself. This gives Harry the opportunity to battle Voldemort himself, heroically defeating him through some ingenious device before thought unimportant. Then, in horror, discovering he himself is the last Horcrux, and nobly ending himself to end Voldemort.

Or, if that ending's too gruesome, I still have my suspicions about Neville Longbottom. He might exercise some still-unhead-of power through his talent with Herbology (or something) to exorcise Voldemort from Harry, thereby fulfilling the prophecy himself. It's questionable, since I don't think he's been "marked" at Voldemort's equal (unless Voldemort also tortured the Riddle family), but it'd be an interesting, suicide-less way to end the series.

I wonder what Rowling's going to write after this?

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blacwolve
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The scar itself isn't just a symbol, though. It's the scar that hurts when Voldemort's angry. Voldemort gives Harry the vision of Sirius being tortured through the scar. I think the scar is a very real link between them. Everytime Voldemort and Harry interact on a nonphysical level, the scar is the medium through which they interact. Maybe it functions as some sort of antenna that only Voldemort is tuned to?
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Judas
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Wowzers Lalo, you basically voiced all my suspicions and added on to some of them. I only hope that Rowling is genius and played Snape as the 'bad' but probably 'good' character, but turns around and actually makes him evil in the end.. I would be very.. very happy..

I wonder what roles Draco and Whiskers will play in this next one..

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citadel
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quote:
As far as Snape goes... I don't think he's evil. Towards the end, he's careful not to harm Harry at all, screaming that he is not a coward.
Could it be that Snape is evil but also knows that Harry is a Horcrux?

What evidence is there for RAB being Sirius' brother?

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blacwolve
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quote:
Originally posted by citadel:
[QUOTE]
What evidence is there for RAB being Sirius' brother?

1. He's the only person mentioned in the books so far that has the initials R something B.

2. People don't think JKR is going to introduce an important new character this late in the game.

3. It would be incredibly cheap of JKR to throw out that hint if it wasn't something we could potentially figure out.

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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
The scar itself isn't just a symbol, though. It's the scar that hurts when Voldemort's angry. Voldemort gives Harry the vision of Sirius being tortured through the scar. I think the scar is a very real link between them. Everytime Voldemort and Harry interact on a nonphysical level, the scar is the medium through which they interact. Maybe it functions as some sort of antenna that only Voldemort is tuned to?

I agree that the scar's a link, but precisely because Voldemort's soul is imbedded in (or represented by) the scar. Can you imagine a closer bond?

Harry's scar hurt when Voldemort killed the Muggle in book four -- when Dumbledore hypothesized Voldemort split his soul, again, to make Nagini a Horcrux. I guess there's no real pain when a Horcrux is destroyed, though -- Dumbledore said Voldemort wouldn't notice, and Harry didn't record any scar pain when Dumbledore took on the ring. Too bad, that would've been a convenient way to help Harry realize he's a Horcrux, by feeling the snake's pain when he kills Nagini.

Also, I can't believe I didn't mention this before, the title of the sixth book tells us Snape's good -- or, at least, not allied with the Death Eaters. He's a half-blood. What's more, he took some degree of pride in it, wordplaying to call himself the Half-Blood Prince.

He's not Voldemort's ally, he's an assassin. He'll of course fail, but there's no way he'd remain permanently allied with Voldemort -- proving Dumbledore's trust well-founded. Snape'll probably justify his murder as necessary, since Dumbledore was beyond aid and Snape needed to prove himself to Voldemort.

Man. When's the next book coming out?

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human_2.0
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Nodoby knows when the book is coming out.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention is that Voldemort is forcing Harry to be his equal by trying to kill him. If Voldemort would just leave Harry alone, Harry would leave Voldemort alone and probably waste his talent and not improve. The scar is evidence that some of Voldemort's power was given to Harry. And because Harry has some of Voldemort's power, he is capable of fighting Voldemort back where his parents and many others who died at Voldemort's hands didn't have the power to resist.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by human_2.0:
Nodoby knows when the book is coming out.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention is that Voldemort is forcing Harry to be his equal by trying to kill him. If Voldemort would just leave Harry alone, Harry would leave Voldemort alone and probably waste his talent and not improve. The scar is evidence that some of Voldemort's power was given to Harry. And because Harry has some of Voldemort's power, he is capable of fighting Voldemort back where his parents and many others who died at Voldemort's hands didn't have the power to resist.

Does he get his pride and bad temper from Voldemort too? Because those seem to be his biggest adversaries TBH.
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blacwolve
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I don't agree with the Harry as Horcrux theory. Voldemort was trying to kill Harry, you don't imbed someone with part of your soul right before you destoy them, it's sort of pointless. And creating a Horcrux has to take intention, otherwise people would be creating them right and left.

I suppose it's possible that Voldemort was trying to use Harry's death to make a Horcrux and missed, but I find it very unlikely.

Also, the whole idea of using a living being as a Horcrux to me seems incredibly stupid. If your goal is to attain eternal life, why tie part of your soul to something that will die in the normal course of things?

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rivka
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blacwolve, I agree. And very well put!
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
I don't agree with the Harry as Horcrux theory. Voldemort was trying to kill Harry, you don't imbed someone with part of your soul right before you destoy them, it's sort of pointless. And creating a Horcrux has to take intention, otherwise people would be creating them right and left.

I suppose it's possible that Voldemort was trying to use Harry's death to make a Horcrux and missed, but I find it very unlikely.

Also, the whole idea of using a living being as a Horcrux to me seems incredibly stupid. If your goal is to attain eternal life, why tie part of your soul to something that will die in the normal course of things?

Remember Voldemort thought he was preventing a prophecy from taking place. Perhaps he felt the occasion of removing his future nemisis from the picture warranted the creation of a horocrux. Its a bit poetic don't you think? You kill your enemy so that you might live forever?

Though to me I admit that if Harry is in fact a horocrux, I do not think Voldemort intended for him to become one.

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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by blacwolve:
I don't agree with the Harry as Horcrux theory. Voldemort was trying to kill Harry, you don't imbed someone with part of your soul right before you destoy them, it's sort of pointless. And creating a Horcrux has to take intention, otherwise people would be creating them right and left.

I suppose it's possible that Voldemort was trying to use Harry's death to make a Horcrux and missed, but I find it very unlikely.

Also, the whole idea of using a living being as a Horcrux to me seems incredibly stupid. If your goal is to attain eternal life, why tie part of your soul to something that will die in the normal course of things?

I doubt he was trying to make Harry a Horcrux either, at least initially. But he's also the greatest Dark wizard, like, ever -- chances are, he had enough time before being destroyed to quickly imbed what remained of his soul in Harry before Lily Potter's spell took effect.

It'd be an interesting twist, actually. Lily's death saved her son -- and, since her death enabled the Horcrux enchantment, Voldemort as well.

You said it yourself, after all. It would be incredibly cheap of Rowlings to not give us clues to the last Horcrux -- if she decides to introduce Ravenclaw's pen or something in the last book, I'll be really disappointed. As it stands, I have very little doubt Harry's the last Horcrux; particularly since Rowlings can then introduce a nice defeating-the-evil-within moral, a theme she's already introduced with Dumbledore's insistence that Harry's love is the only real difference between him and Voldemort.

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breyerchic04
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Citadel, the other reason people go with that theory is in I think the danish verison of HPB it was RAZ and black starts wtih a Z in that language. Or I may have changed language and letters.
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blacwolve
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quote:
I doubt he was trying to make Harry a Horcrux either, at least initially. But he's also the greatest Dark wizard, like, ever -- chances are, he had enough time before being destroyed to quickly imbed what remained of his soul in Harry before Lily Potter's spell took effect.
I don't buy this. Magic in the Potterverse is not a simple matter of strength and will. There are spells and rituals that must be completed for the magic to work. If creating a horcrux were merely a matter of wanting it bad enough, Voldemort would not have needed to search for the secret to making one for years.

Minor quibble: It was Voldemort's own spell that killed him, Lily Potter didn't cast an active spell on him.

quote:

You said it yourself, after all. It would be incredibly cheap of Rowlings to not give us clues to the last Horcrux -- if she decides to introduce Ravenclaw's pen or something in the last book, I'll be really disappointed.

What I actually said was that it would be really cheap of JKR to not have made it possible for us to guess who R.A.B. is. The reason I think that is because the only possible reason to have the guy not just sign his name is for it to be a mystery. There's no logical reason for it. People in the Potterverse don't normally sign only their initials any more than we do in real life. The only reason for R.A.B. is to force Harry and co., and by extension the fans to find out who he is.

The horcruxes are completely different. The point of the horcruxes is not that their mysterious. Think about Half Blood Prince. We don't even know how Dumbledore found the horcrux at the end. I doubt JKR herself knows how Dumbledore found it. Because finding the Horcux wasn't what was important. The sacrifices required to destroy it, that was important.

Likewise, the actual form of the rest of the Horcuxes isn't important except insofar as it informs us of Voldemort's nature. It's what Harry, Ron, and Hermione will have to go through to find and destroy them that is important.

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