posted
I'm a pretty careful driver, defensive if you will. I don't drive slow in the fast lane, I let people pass, I don't obstruct traffic, but I do make a complete stop at stop signs, follow the rules of right of way, and so on.
I don't know if people consider themselves aggressive drivers, or if they just think they're a good driver, and everyone else sucks. If there are any self-proclaimed aggressive drivers out there, I was wondering if you'd share your reasoning.
For example, I was driving in the right lane of the interstate on my way home, going the speed limit. The car behind me came up fast, passed me, but then had to cut me off, because they had to get off at the exit we were just passing. They nearly caused a 70 mph accident to get to the exit no more than 3 seconds sooner.
I honestly cannot fathom the thinking that must accompany someone driving that way.
If anyone drives like that or know someone who does, I am curious about your motives and thought process.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I have a police friend who says that most people drive beyond their skill level. Sounds like you are the exception. Good job!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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For example, I was driving in the right lane of the interstate on my way home, going the speed limit. The car behind me came up fast, passed me, but then had to cut me off, because they had to get off at the exit we were just passing. They nearly caused a 70 mph accident to get to the exit no more than 3 seconds sooner.
I had exactly the same thing happen to me yesterday. It was terrifying.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I don't understand it either. What is frustrating, is you can do everything right, but because you can't control the other drivers, get in accidents anyway. Take my recent interstate accident. I heard on the radio there was a delay up ahead. I also saw it on those huge electronic signs that go across the interstate and alert you to traffic problems. I saw the cars stopped on the interstate in front of me, slowed down, stopped with plenty of room between me and the guy in front of me.
And got slammed in the rear because some bozo wasn't paying attention and caused a six-car accident. Then, naturally, he was carrying the minimum amount of insurance which wasn't nearly enough to cover the damage he caused, so I wind up paying my insurance deductible to get my car fixed. Which it still hasn't been, I still haven't replaced my bumper because with school starting up I don't exactly have the $500 deductible sitting around nor can I afford to lose the use of my car for a day with all the running around I've got to do.
posted
I was going my usual 5 over when I spotted a car going about 5 under in front of me. I casually got into the left lane to pass the guy. All of a sudden some jerk going about 20 miles over the speed limit came barrelling down the road and tailgated me while flashing his lights at me. All for the less then 30 seconds it took me to pass the really slow guy.
I work in insurance so I hear these stories a lot from customers. I don't understand it, I don't think I ever will. Most of the claims we actually take though are surprisingly from people just running red lights, or ignoring stop signs.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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And got slammed in the rear because some bozo wasn't paying attention and caused a six-car accident. Then, naturally, he was carrying the minimum amount of insurance which wasn't nearly enough to cover the damage he caused, so I wind up paying my insurance deductible to get my car fixed. Which it still hasn't been, I still haven't replaced my bumper because with school starting up I don't exactly have the $500 deductible sitting around nor can I afford to lose the use of my car for a day with all the running around I've got to do.
Do you have a credit card you can throw it on temporarily? In most states your insurance company will subrogate the claim. Meaning they will take the guy through the legal system to try and get their money back, along with your deductible. If that is the case you are out the $500 just temporarily.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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When I was learning how to drive, my father gave me words of wisdom: "A car is not a vehicle. It is a weapon. There are people out there who will kill you with theirs if you aren't careful."
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I definitely consider myself an aggressive driver, but I think we have a different definition of the term. You seem to think that aggressive driving means that I (as an aggressive driver) am also dangerous or that I make stupid decisions. The person you described just sounds like another stupid, dangerous, bad driver.
I consider myself an aggressive driver because I sense, ahead of time, what's going on on the road. I read the body language of other drivers to determine just what the idiots are going to do next. I look far ahead on the road to judge future conditions and to determine my actions several steps ahead of time.
I learned a long time ago, however, that speeding is just not worth it. I got busted too many times for speeding and wasted thousands of dollars on tickets. These days, I go maybe 10 mph over, tops, and that's not very common for me. I used to be 25 over most of the time.
Defensive driving has always seemed too reactive to me.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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My frustrations with driving stem almost exclusively from drivers who just aren't aware enough of their surroundings to be behind the wheel.
These are the people who will ride in your blind spot, pull out of driveways without looking, sit at green lights talking on their cell phone, stop suddenly to turn without signaling, fail to see Yield signs when merging, pull out in front of you on a highway without getting up to the speed limit (sometimes this is a problem of engine power more than anything else, but if you know you have no pick up you should wait for a larger space to pull out into), etc..
The aggressive drivers I see on the Belt Parkway in NY who ride your bumper, weave within inches of cars, pass people on the shoulder, etc... I normally just try to stay out of their way.
The aggressive you can avoid - the oblivious make it much more difficult.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I honestly cannot fathom the thinking that must accompany someone driving that way.
If anyone drives like that or know someone who does, I am curious about your motives and thought process.
I think that it's pretty common, when a person does something fairly dangerous (like piloting a ton or more of metal and glass at 55-70 mph) routinely, for them to baseline the experience and forget how dangerous it actually is. Most of the behavior you're talking about can just be attributed to not thinking, I suspect. Add that to people being late or impatient to get where they're going, and you get people doing very dangerous things for savings of seconds at best.
I have to admit, I get a certain satisfaction when somebody drives like that around me, passing me at unsafe speeds, weaving in and out of traffic, etc, and then I end up directly behind them at the next stoplight.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Most of the claims we actually take though are surprisingly from people just running red lights, or ignoring stop signs.
Yeah, I've seen those accidents first hand often enough. There is a difference between agressive driving and speeding. My view is that speeding doesn't cause accidents by itself, it simply makes the accident worse when it happens. Note: Speeding and "going too fast around a curve" are not the same thing. But speeding and running red lights are associated, because when you're going too fast, you can't stop in time for the light.
I know a guy who brags about tailgating drivers who are only going 10 mph over the speed limit, and passing in the breakdown lane. He seems to have a fully developed rationalization about how going too slow is the real problem, and he's just trying to teach people that they're wrong to drive slowly. He doesn't seem to be able to separate the act of driving fast on an unobstructed straight road from the kind of actions that cause interference between objects.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I've always been of the opinion that cars should be sold with machine guns in a turret on the roof, just so we can punish behaviour like that.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Oh, another thing that bothers me about drivers is that if there is any disruption or distraction in their environment, that becomes the focus of their attention.
Accident on the side of the road? Let's all slow down and watch for the ten seconds as we drive by. Car broken down on the side of the road? Let's watch them change their tire. Person pulled over on the side of the road reading a map? Let's slow down to see what he's doing.
I can understand this of people in the right lane who are slowing down out of safety. But what about people in the left lane? No need to slow down to watch some guy getting something out of his trunk. What about the people on the *other side of the divided highway*? There's no need to slow down to watch a tow truck or ambulance take care of an accident that happened in the opposite direction.
Police can cause this same effect. A police car at the side of the road during rush hour can back up a highway for miles.
It astounds me, but a slight curve in the road can even do this. People slow down so much for maybe a 5-10% curve that it backs traffic up for miles.
Maybe it's just because I live in NJ (NY and CA drivers probably have similar experiences) where the traffic is just so dense. But it drives you crazy to sit in traffic for an hour to find out it's because some dude has a flat tire and everyone was gawking at him.
After sitting for hours in traffic, a friend of mine once said "A car better be flipped over at least, or I'm going to be really pissed." Turned out a cop had pulled someone over on the back side of a curve, which slowed the entire road to a standstill.
Is there some reason people can't just go along their merry way instead of slowing down to be nosy?
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I agree with PC that aggressive driver does not equal bad driver or stupid driver. I also think that the aggression level depends largely on who else is on the road, or where you are.
In my city you pretty much have to be an aggressive driver. If you are on the freeway and put on your blinker well before you change lanes, like you are supposed to do, everyone else will speed up so you can't take their place in line. It is ridiculous, but people do it. So you pretty much have to jump over as soon as there is a space that your vehicle will fit in and hope the guy behind you slows down to let you in. In fact, a lot of driving around here relies on the hope that the people around you are paying enough attention not to hit you. If you are entering a freeway you just have to gun it and hope that someone is forced to make room for you, or you would be driving on the shoulder the entire time.
So yeah, I'm an aggressive driver, but out of necessity. I still pay attention to the road and what is going on around me, I just act quickly and don't wait for anyone to let me do anything, because they never will.]
Edit: for spelling
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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FlyingCow, I know exactly what you mean, and it drives me nuts! (I live on Long Island.) I'm always astonished when an accident that isn't even obstructing traffic at all causes jams across all four (or even more) lanes on the highway, just because of all the people slowing down to stare.
I've even seen accidents stop highway traffic going the opposite direction because, of course, everyone has to crane their necks over the barrier to see what happened.
The police car thing, though, I can sort of understand. They've been getting pretty ticket-happy in my area, so even though everyone usually goes about 70+ on highways (when the limit's 55), if I see a police car that looks like it's waiting to pull someone over, I'll slow down to 60 because I don't want that someone to be me. I've already been caught once, and that was enough. I've never seen it actually stop traffic, though.
I'm normally a pretty laid-back, polite driver with a slight penchant for speeding, but after moving out here, I've had to become more aggressive because I can't count on the consideration of others as much as I could back in rural/suburban Illinois. People are usually too impatient for me to be able to wait for a real pause in traffic to merge, or change lanes, or turn left on a green when I don't have an arrow light. I still wait a little longer than most locals do, but not as long as I used to. And I like to think my Illinois plates protect me from at least some of the honking. Posts: 952 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: I definitely consider myself an aggressive driver, but I think we have a different definition of the term. You seem to think that aggressive driving means that I (as an aggressive driver) am also dangerous or that I make stupid decisions. The person you described just sounds like another stupid, dangerous, bad driver.
I consider myself an aggressive driver because I sense, ahead of time, what's going on on the road. I read the body language of other drivers to determine just what the idiots are going to do next. I look far ahead on the road to judge future conditions and to determine my actions several steps ahead of time.
Actually, I think you may be using the wrong definition. What you described sounds like defensive driving to me, not aggressive. Defensive does NOT mean passive. Check out Wiki Defensive Driving for more info.
One of the best things I did for my defensive driving skills was take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course. The classroom focus is all about driving defensively. Having these skills is really important for just surviving on a motorcycle. Since taking the class, I've also noticed I use better habits in my occasional car driving as well.
Scanning ahead 12 and 4 seconds, keeping a 2 second following distance, checking your mirrors, assuming other drivers can't see you or are going to try to hit you, staying out of blind spots, making sure you're seen, watching the road for obstacles, always having an exit plan, etc all make driving a very mentally and physically demanding task.
On an odd note, I consider speeding at times to be a defensive driving technique. Cars seem to be pack animals. I kind of like to exist in my own pack free zone between groups, so I'll often speed up to get around a group and out into the open where there are a lot less variables.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:I've never seen it actually stop traffic, though.
I did, that one time a car had been pulled over on the backside of a curve on the right side of the road.
People came around the corner doing 70+ in a 65 zone, then immediately hit their brakes when they saw the flashing lights, dropping them to 60-65. Of course, the people behind them had to slow down even more, and the people behind them even more, etc. Then people were rubbernecking the traffic stop, and things just crawled. By the time I got up there, I couldn't believe it was just a routine traffic stop.
I read somewhere once that traffic obeys the laws of fluid dynamics. If one person hits their brake, it flows backwards through traffic like a ripple on water. If lanes merge, it also slows down like water going through a funnel. And if the cars up front get slowed enough, it will act like a dam.
It's like the chaos theory butterfly effect. One person slams on their brakes up front, and there's a major slow down a mile back.
Found a link to the fluid dynamic thing.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:I kind of like to exist in my own pack free zone between groups, so I'll often speed up to get around a group and out into the open where there are a lot less variables.
I'm the same way, Bao... though I often end up creeping up on the next pack anyway.
Also, at night, I'm much more likely to drive in the left lane than the right. It gives me a lot more time to see a deer on the side of the road and react if it decides to bolt out.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I typically try my best to be observant of condition around me while driving but I too am willing to be assertive if I need to be.
When I lived in Hong Kong and you signaled that you were changing lanes, its very congested and many drivers will actually speed up to cut you off in order to prevent you from moving in front of them. There really is only one way to deal with that mentality and its to signal and push your way into the lane. Drivers in Hong Kong are not idiots they are not going to hit you, if you are moving in, they will 99.9999% of the time simply fall back to avoid running into you. If you run into that .0001% who suddenly speeds up, you simply get back into your lane, honk your horn, give them a disapproving look for breaking protocol and push your way behind them.
If you dont you will miss 90% of the turns and lane changes you need to make, because almost nobody is going to courteously slow down to make room for you.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Having lived in NJ as well as driven in NYC a lot I have to agree with what some of the others are saying about aggressive driving. depending on how you define "aggressive" that is. you just cant survive driving in NYC if you're not aggressive. And it's probably more dangerous on the New Jersey highways being "passive" or "defensive". For instance, if you don't get right up on the butt of the car in front of you, you will be cut off constantly. which besides slowing you down, and annoying, is dangerous. so is it less dangerous to tailgate then it is to constantly be cut off?
I consider myself an aggressively defensive driver. Being a motorycle rider I've learned to look very very far ahead at all times and be aware of all traffic around me as second nature, and it carries over to car driving also. But I do alaso drive over the speed limit and pass people. And if i can do it safely(and it's open up enough that it's worth it), i'll weave through traffic.
The thing that annoys me most is people who cruise in the left lane. The left lane is not a travelling lane. It's a passing lane. I don't care if i'm going the speed limit, or 5mph over, or 25 mph over. If i'm going faster than you, and you're blocking the left lane, and you have the ability to move over into the right lane...DO IT. It's only common curtesy. Even while i'm passing people, if someone is coming up behind me moving faster, i move out of their way. And as long as their is space in one of the other lanes i always move over right away after passing traffic. Sure if everything is congested there's no reason for it, but when it isn't, it's infuriating when someone is blocking up the passing lanes, with no one anywhere ahead of them, and there's just a steady stream of cars that have to pass them on the right.
I also have settled out in the past few years. I don't speed nearly as much as i used to. Though i still consider myself aggressive in that i don't just sit in the right lane travelling at the speed limit or slower.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Seems like too many people are treating driving as if they are in a video game. Way too many risks.
I have always made a point, when driving with my kids, to point out those who are driving erratically and how dangerous it is.
Mostly, though I point out those who fly by us speeding, then we see them at the next stoplight or delay and I will say, "See? All that rushing didn't really buy him any extra time, did it? He's gained maybe 50 yards on me total, before traffic shut him down"
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: Seems like too many people are treating driving as if they are in a video game. Way too many risks.
I have always made a point, when driving with my kids, to point out those who are driving erratically and how dangerous it is.
Mostly, though I point out those who fly by us speeding, then we see them at the next stoplight or delay and I will say, "See? All that rushing didn't really buy him any extra time, did it? He's gained maybe 50 yards on me total, before traffic shut him down"
FG
Oh I live in Utah now and as such I do not have to push my way into any lanes like I did in Hong Kong. On freeways I steer clear of the left lane unless I am trying to pass somebody. I dont take uneccesary risks, but I yield when I need to, stop at stop signs completely.
Having said all that I think the only drawback to driving too defensively is when it reaches a point where you are actually making things confusing.
When I reach a 4 way stop at the same time as the person who is to the right of me. You really just make things confusing when I wait for you to go, notice movement out of the corner of my eye and look over to see you waving me along. Its so easy for say another car to be opposite of the person with the right of way who see's you waving your hand but not where you are looking, who then goes out of turn.
I agree with Striders comment about the left lane. The left lane is the passing lane. That does not mean you cannot travel in it, just realize that if a car is coming up behind you, courtesy compels you to get into the middle lane while he passes. I can't stand it when I come up on 3 cars in the 3 freeway lanes and they are all lined up. Being lined up is dangerous as you CANNOT react to your full ability if something compells all three of them to take evasive action.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Actually, I've found NYC drivers to be far more aggressive than NJ drivers. They cut you off more often, close up gaps to avoid lane changes, etc... all the very annoying "you can't get in front of me, buddy" displays.
NJ drivers, on the other hand, are more unaware than NYC drivers. While they may not cut you off, they might easily drift out of their lane into yours by a foot or so before drifting back. It's not cutting you off to be aggressive, but it's probably just as dangerous.
A NY driver will know exactly where you are and decide he can cut in front of you and miss your car by at least 8 inches. A NJ driver may not realize exactly where you are and change lanes obliviously in front of you and miss your car by at least 8 inches.
At least in general. There are plenty of hyper aggressive NJ drivers to disprove the rule, and plenty of unaware NYC drivers - but on the whole, NYC drivers are more aggressive and NJ drivers are more passive/unaware.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I agree that sometimes you have to be very assertive in your lane changing, but you can still signal and merge safely.
What bugs me is the people who drive dangerously, putting themselves and others at risk. The other day a driver went around me in the bike lane because he wanted to drive 45 in a school zone. Of course, at the next stop sign I was right behind him.
My guess is that in his head, he's a safe driver, and he can drive 45 in a 25, because he knows where all the kids are and can stop on a dime.
I don't care if you want to drive 80 in the left lane on a clear, dry highway. I don't care if you pass me legally. Don't endanger me because you feel like you deserve to get where you're going 2 minutes sooner.
That's what bothers me the most, if people though about it, passing 6 cars by driving 60 in the breakdown lane is going to get you about 20 seconds further ahead in line. Is less than a minute really worth risking a dozen lives?
I think people who drive dangerously need to be treated much more severely by the law. I don't know if we need better driving instruction before people can get a license, or more strict enforcement of reckless driving, or something else, but I see entirely too many dangerous drivers on the road.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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FlyingCow, I do agree with you. I'd actually rather drive in NYC than in NJ. New York drivers are more aggressive, but also more aware. NJ drivers are agressive, but unaware. I just seems to me that NJ is filled with drivers who all think they're very important and have to be somewhere very quickly.
NJ drivers mostly haven't heard of curtesy. I remember i was driving down a road once, and saw a car ahead waiting to take a right and turn into the lane i was in. But there was a long steady stream of cars in front of and behind me. So as people do sometimes, I slowed down to let them in ahead of me. They didn't turn. I beeped. I waved. I flashed. They were completly oblivious to what i was doing because they had never seen anything like it before! This type of thing happened a lot. This is just a general observation. I know not all Jersey drivers are like this.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I find that driving in San Francisco is generally easier than driving in Berkeley. There is a lot more traffic in SF, the streets tend to be narrow, steep, sometimes have cable car tracks or buses taking up a lot of room. The drivers tend to be aware of this though, and it's almost like a colony of ants, they let each other squeeze in, they realize that there will be pedestrians jumping into the middle of the street, they know that someone might have to turn across 2 lanes of traffic ahead.
In Berkeley, the drivers seem to be oblivious to anything around them. They don't expect the traffic to be dangerous, so it's actually more dangerous. They talk on their cell phones, they ignore pedestrians right in front of them, they run bikes off the road. They get to a 4-way stop and flip the f out. They seem to have no idea what right of way is, or how to follow basic driving laws.
I much prefer to drive in a busy area filled with good, aware drivers, rather than a seemingly "safer" place, with oblivious, dangerous drivers. In busy areas, the drivers have to be more courteous and aware.
On the other hand, maybe Berkeley drivers are just a bunch of idiots.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think some aggressive driving is due to a kind of tunnel vision. Some people don't see their surroundings passing, only that the cars around them are more are less in their same relative positions; thus, the mind says, they aren't making progress.
I try not to be an aggressive driver, but I do recognize that sometimes its safer to drive faster and get away from people who aren't paying attention- even if it means going over the speed limit- than to stay close to someone who seems determined to remain in other cars' blind spots, or keeps creeping out of their own lane.
I recently spent some time in Seattle, and was reminded of how different the Seattle mindset seems to be in driving. Aggressive doesn't begin to describe it.
...But, then again, I went back to Anchorage Alaska for three weeks a few years ago, and just within that time I was a) tailgated by someone determined to go 60 in a 35 mph zone and b) witnessed someone who decided they couldn't wait for a traffic light and decided to bypass the line and make their right turn on the sidewalk.
(Near a preschool, no less...)
A friend of mine once commented, "Y'know, sometimes, I just don't like people." Some days, driving makes me feel that way.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:They were completly oblivious to what i was doing because they had never seen anything like it before!
Heh. I'm curious where in Jersey you were. I have found that Jersey drivers will accept the offer to go ahead and wave a thanks, whereas NYC drivers will pull out without even a nod more often than not.
I think, while the heights of aggression are equal between NYC and NJ drivers, the quantity of aggression is higher in NYC, though. Take any ten days out of the year on the Belt Parkway v. any ten days out of the year on the Garden State Parkway, and you'll see ten times as many lunatics on the Belt.
And there's no environment in NJ even comparable to Manhattan for driving, just in the number of insane cab drivers you have to compete with to get anywhere.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:If anyone drives like that or know someone who does, I am curious about your motives and thought process.
I won't try to psychoanalyze the motives of aggressive drivers, but usually it's simple things like stress, explosive tempers, situational pressures, and combinations of the three. Many dating and relationship counselers actually have 'aggressive driving' on their lists of Red Flag behaviors that indicate that someone's not worth getting into a relationship with*.
Aggressive driving is, statistically, the best way to be involved with wrecks ever ever. Impatience breeds patterns of driving assumptivity.
*another one of my favorite red flags: people who kick dogs or cats
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Why I will never drive in NY: This was posted in an NY area forum by a motorcycle rider on a forum I frequent:
quote:Why is it this year I've seen more motorcycle accidents than ever before? A friend of mine was killed yesterday on his motorcycle. Yesterday a biker was also killed when a truck decided to cut him off and he hit the truck....why can't people just watch for bikers? They have just as much right as cagers to be out there. Do you really want to say to someone's family "I'm sorry I didn't see them on their bike, I didn't mean to kill them?" It takes two seconds to look and prevent a lifetime of pain.
PLEASE WATCH FOR US!!!! RIDE SAFE EVERYONE!!!
Now some of the responses, each from different person, offensive words edited out:
quote: today come in two basic flavors:
1.)The middle aged crisis on a harley.
2.)The young ****head on a racing bike.
Both similar - these wannabe tough guys prowl the mean suburban streets revving their engines impressing upon everybody (beginning with themselves) of just how truly badass they are. When in actuality they simply suffer from an unoriginal macho bullshit energy disorder.
The next time you read in the paper about one of these alpha males losing a arm or leg or even better dying - Treat yourself to a ice cream cone because its a special day which God has set for you.
quote: this is a public service announcement, QUIT TRYING TO PRETEND YOUR SAFETY IS ANYONE ELSE'S RESPONSIBILITY BUT YOUR OWN!
We car drivers don't have to look out for you or even give a **** about you. You're natural selection waiting to happen, ok? And that's YOUR PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. Nobody made you buy that bike! Nobody forced you to "ride".
Bottom line, kids: YOUR CHOICE, YOUR PROBLEM, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Now, drive safe, and don't dent my car with your spectacular demise
quote: Well la de frikkin da again. You motorcycle people are just Sooo special arent you. What with all your magical clothes and crap. Yaa. Like i'm really gonna ****in try to imagine I may see one of you before I change lanes.
Eileen: all your Smokey Bear safety tips don't mean shit. If you get in my ***ing way I will run you down like its road warrior. People should just be happy if they make it back alive. That's what drivings all about.
Motorcycles suck. You shouldnt have to wear a ****ing helmet to go outside & do stuff unless you're corky the retard. Its not normal.
quote:No, my dim-witted student friend, your road safety is YOUR responsibility, and it's YOUR problem if someone runs your dumb ass over. I know it must make you feel good to have this exciting "us vs. them" thing going on, but it's really very childish and you should grow out of it one of these days.
Nobody made you buy that stupid deathtrap you're so fond of.
Nobody made you ride around on it all day.
Nobody makes you do any of the incredibly stupid things I see motorcyclists do on a constant basis, which sometimes causes them to wipe out spectacularly.
Just in case you're not getting it, nobody gives a **** whether you people live or die, much less whether you want us to give you some kind of "extra special" dispensation on the highways.
Anyway, think about it this way: maybe the human family tree is a little bit better off when some throwback falls off a low branch, you know what I mean? It could be that the gene pool is just a tad cleaner when one of you neandertals decides to leave it. You're a student; you know about Darwin. Consider one of your spectacular wipe-outs a sort of cosmic toilet flush. Every little bit helps!
Seriously, if this is people's mentality on the road, I think I'll stay the heck away from NY.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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That's scary, BQT. But then, I've lived most of the last ten years in places where people were expected to watch for people on non-motorized cycles.
You'd think, especially with fuel prices doing what they've been doing, that people wouldn't have a "it's a car or it's nothing" attitude, let alone feel justified in saying motorcyclists deserve to die.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I almost never had someone let me in while waiting to turn on a heavily trafficed road. i would usually end up having to pull out in front of someone and cut them off. No one ever left a spot for you to pull in. And then traffic would stop, and still no one would let you in.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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You have to drive aggresively in my town to drive. It's crazy. We don't have enough lanes ever for the traffic that is carried. Nobody, seriously nobody, will obey the "slower traffic keep right" rule. When it's very congested, I understand. There is nowhere else to go, and there has to be a different model, but even when the traffic is fairly light, and when it could be helped tremendously by people having the courtesy to move over and let cars around them, nobody does. You are forced to pass on the right, if you can pass at all. Often there are cars going almost the same speed in all three or four lanes.
People will let you in when you're waiting to pull out on traffic congested roads, though. That is nice. Almost anyone whose eye you catch will let you pull over or pull out in front of them. I like that.
In other cities, the people know to sort themselves by speed and stay in the appropriate lanes. and traffic is much saner and smoother. In my city, nobody seems to understand this concept.
There is also (on the highway) always the person whose cruise control is set for .001 mile per hour higher than the person they are passing. They might take 2 or 3 minutes to pass one car, while people back up behind them. It would be so easy for them to slow down briefly and pull behind the car they want to pass, to let people by, then speed up briefly to pull ahead of it quickly, and get back over. It's not vital that you go exactly one speed on the highway. It's okay to have a target speed, but vary from that by 5 miles per hour in either direction as conditions require.
I'm an aggressive driver, but I am alert, aware, skillful, and courteous, so I feel I'm driving as safely as possible in the conditions that exist on our roads.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I try to be as careful as possible of all drivers, but I have to admit, it can be darn tough to see a motorcycle sometimes. I change lanes carefully, I signal, but there have been several times when I've almost flattened a motorcyclist because they've felt the need to try and pass me between lanes, even though I've been signaling the move.
Those people were callous and mean-spirited, but I think you absolutely do take your life into your own hands when you ride a motorcycle on the highway. A motorcyclist's safety margin seems to rely a great deal on their own ability to ride carefully.
I feel the same way when it comes to my car and larger vehicles. If I see a semi or dump truck, even a large SUV, I drive under the assumption that they can't see me, and that if we get into an accident, they're going to win, so I make sure to avoid them.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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A couple of interesting hypotheses I've read include.
1. In the US (and to some extent other parts of the world) getting a drivers license is a right of passages to independence, freedom and mobility. So even though we may not consciously recognize it, when we are in a car we expect freedom and indepence. A part of our brain believes that because we are driving a car, we have the natural right to go where we please. When other cars hinder our movement, we feel it as an violation of our rights.
2. We are taught that going by car is the fastest most convenient way to get places. As a result, when we are stuck behind a slow driver or a long light or can't find a convenient parking place, it violates our preconcieved notion that driving is fast and convenient which causes frustration. When I was teaching at Montana State University, I can't tell you how many times I heard people complain that by the time the battled through campus traffic, found a parking space and then walked to their office or classes, they could have walked faster. They were always adamat that something had to be fixed.
I lived 2 1/2 miles from campus and walked to work year round. Nearly everyone in Bozeman lived as close to campus as I did or closer . What they missed in their rants, was that given the logistics of Bozeman and MSU, walking was simply faster and more convenient than driving a car. But that conclusion violated their deeply held conviction that driving had to be the fasted most convenient way to get from point to point.
I also suffer from this dillusion. I usually bicycle or take the bus to work. Occasionally, when I am really rushed I drive my car because "its faster and more convenient". Yet in the end, by the time I find a parking space and walk to my office, it rarely turns out to be any faster than bicycling. I find myself anxiously tapping my foot at stop lights and angrily hunting for a closer parking space because I'm rushed and driving is by definition supposed to be fast and convenient.
3. Some psychologists see speeding is an addiction. When people are addicted to speed, they resist the idea that speeding is dangerous and immoral, and become hostile and irrational when discussing it. Speed as an addiction attracts to itself rationalizations that are fallacious "It's the slow driver that causes accidents". "I drive fast, but I am more attentive and have better reflex's than most drivers so all in all, my driving style is safer." "I've never been in an accident so my driving can't be that dangerous."
4. In the US (at least) poor driving skills (or even just average driving skills) are viewed as a character flaw. As a result, almost everyone believes that they are a good driver (especially men). If they drive 10 mph over the speed limit, they believe that this is how every responsible driver should behave. They see it the same way if they drive 10 mph under the limit.
5. Most drivers under estimate the risks associated with driving a car. This is because driving gives us a false sense that we are in control because we control the car. The fact that a car is a lethal weapon and that a fraction of a second loss of concentration or control could lead to someones death, gets lost in the feeling of freedom and power or even just "routine" that most people get behind the wheel.
6. For many, driving a car is a kind of "power trip". Traveling down a highway becomes a form of competition. If you let someone in, you are weak. If you pass someone, you are winning.
Almost all of this occurs at a subconscious level. I find it curious that most people are meaner behind the wheel of the car than in anyother situation. They are less likely to show show kindness and consideration for others and more likely to be angry and impatient. Bringing some of our subconscious beliefs about driving to a conscious level can change the way we interact with others in traffic.
[ August 16, 2006, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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2, 5, and 6 are very true, in my experience. I've definitely also seen that three things everyone believes about themself is that (1) they're funny, (2) they have good taste, and (3) they're a good driver.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rabbit, that is one of the most interesting and informative posts of yours that I've read. Thanks for sharing.
quote:I try to be as careful as possible of all drivers, but I have to admit, it can be darn tough to see a motorcycle sometimes. I change lanes carefully, I signal, but there have been several times when I've almost flattened a motorcyclist because they've felt the need to try and pass me between lanes, even though I've been signaling the move.
Those people were callous and mean-spirited, but I think you absolutely do take your life into your own hands when you ride a motorcycle on the highway. A motorcyclist's safety margin seems to rely a great deal on their own ability to ride carefully.
That makes me so mad when motorcyclists make illegal moves like that. It furthers (and sometimes validates) the perception that if one hits a person on a motorcycle, then it's because the motorcyclist was doing something stupid.
Really my pet peeve but sorry, but when did, "I didn't see him" ever become a valid excuse for a motorcycle accident? Would that excuse for a semi truck driver that makes a left hand turn in front of a Dodge Neon be acceptable? If you can't see a motorcycle, bicyclist or pedestrian, you shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.
Those people were not only mean-spirited and callous, but kind of scary anecdotal evidence of aggressive drivers mentality. You mention the risks of motorcycles, but what if these guys are driving 3/4 ton pickup trucks and decide that your daughter, in her Toyota Corolla, deserves to be flattened because she makes an illegal lane change one day? Would you say, oh she knew the risks going out there on the highway in a subcompact?
I understand that due to the nature of the motorcycle, motorcycle riding is inherently more risky than driving in a car. However, a huge unnecessary risk is hostile or inattentive drivers.
Sorry for the long rant, but a I use a motorcycle to commute to work every day (since my wife has the car), so it's kind of personal to me.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I don't think it's inattentiveness. I think, in a lot of cases, it's that bikers are easy to miss.
When I check my blind spot, I'm looking for vehicles. Cars, trucks, and semis. Those three make up the vast majority of what's on the road. But more than that, even the smallest car around is much larger than a bike. And more visible.
I'm conscious that there are motorcycles on the road, and I've yet to not see one, but I can easily see how driving in heavy traffic one could be missed. I don't believe my experience is unique, and I know that means when I get a bike (I've been considering it for the last two years) the burden will be on me to make sure I'm not close enough for someone to miss me when I'm on the road.
See, because if a car and a bike collide, all the indignant "I'm in the right!" posturing won't change the fact that the biker likely will be seriously hurt and the driver likely unhurt. The reverse thought process already runs through my mind when I'm driving around semis. They could run over my tiny Accord and not even notice, so I make sure I give them a wide berth.
On the road is one place I'd rather be alive than be right.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I have to admit, I get a certain satisfaction when somebody drives like that around me, passing me at unsafe speeds, weaving in and out of traffic, etc, and then I end up directly behind them at the next stoplight.
Me too. I once got on the freeway about the same time as another car. I set my cruise control, picked a lane, and pretty much stayed there. The car behind me tailgated me for a while and then finally got frustrated and started changing lanes and pushing ahead. He didn't make very good progress, apparently, because we got off at the same exit.
If you're worrying about how many cars you're passing and how they're all going slow and not getting out of your way, you're going to be frustrated a lot.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I'm always hyper-cautious around motorcycles, because they're so fragile. Driving behind them, I'll leave more extra room than a car because bad road surface or any other disruption can affect them far worse than it would a car. Driving beside them, I try to either fall back or pull ahead because if I have to swerve they have no protection (this is especially the case when two idiot harley drivers ride side by side in the same lane taking up more than a wide car's width). Driving in front of them I feel more comfortable, though I also make sure I leave extra room because if I brake he could go through my trunk.
To me, driving with motorcycles on the road is like playing football with a ten year old. You have to be extra careful.
Now, when there are idiotic motorcyclists on the road (like the aforementioned side-by-side harleys in one lane), who weave between traffic, pass in the breakdown lane, tailgate (possibly the dumbest thing I've seen motorcyclists do), or drive at breakneck speeds, it makes driving even more tense.
As for the "didn't see them" defense, it's perfectly valid if the motorcyclist was a twit. If he was going twenty miles over roadspeed and was passing on the right (which I see them do *all the time*), you could easily put your blinker on, check your blind spot, and move over just as the idiot flies up from behind into the lane you're changing into.
A motorcycle is a vehicle just like a car, and has to obey all the same rules. You don't see two cars riding side by side in a lane, or see cars weaving on the lines between lanes. Tailgating and driving in the breakdown lane are just as risky with a car as a motorbike. And speeding, though far easier on a motorbike, is even more likely to get you dead.
So, all in all, motorcyclists often unnerve me.
And Strider, certain areas of NJ (Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken, Paterson, etc) that are very urban or very close to NYC share the same characteristics as NYC drivers. The other 90% of the state's land area has a different breed of drivers.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I am not a speeder, normally. Sometimes I'll look down and see that I've crept up to 80 and be shocked, because I was just going with the flow of the traffic and sped up without really noticing. Because of that, I try to set my cruise when I'm on the interstate to keep myself legal. I just find it's so much freer to drive without having to worry about police cars. If I see one on the side of the road, so what? I know I'm doing nothing wrong. Speeding causes too much anxiety.
A valuable lesson my grandfather taught me, and one I will repeat with my kids when they are teens, is about how useless most speeding is. I was frantic becuase he was driving me to school and we were only one mile away. I kept insisting he speed up so I wouldn't be late.
That night, he made me put my math skills to test - he made me calculate how many seconds we would have saved if he'd gone 10 mph faster. Then asked me if that would have kept me from being late. Then he hit me with a lot of stats about the wrecks speeding caused and how much speeding tickets cost and basically asked me to do a cost-benefit analysis.
I still remember that lesson vividly, and I never have been much for speeding since then. In fact, I've never, repeat never, received a ticket of any kind.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: I'm always hyper-cautious around motorcycles, because they're so fragile. Driving behind them, I'll leave more extra room than a car because bad road surface or any other disruption can affect them far worse than it would a car. Driving beside them, I try to either fall back or pull ahead because if I have to swerve they have no protection (this is especially the case when two idiot harley drivers ride side by side in the same lane taking up more than a wide car's width). Driving in front of them I feel more comfortable, though I also make sure I leave extra room because if I brake he could go through my trunk.
I like this, and I pretty much try to do the same.
However I do feel uneasy when motorcyclists zoom up the middle portion of stopped traffic: I can just imagine a horrible accident too easily.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Now after saying all that about motorcycles, I do have to agree that percentage wide, motorcyclists do a lot more stupid things than I ever see cars do. It's a bit hypocritical-they want the same respect and awareness that a car receives, but they don't want to follow the same traffic rules as a car.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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A few weeks ago someone tailgated me, then cut around me way too close, and took off at fifteen miles an hour over the speed limit.
We took the same on-ramp onto the highway. I saw him pulled over by a cop two minutes later.
In some ways, I'm more frustrated by the bicyclists I see than the motorcyclists. The motorcyclists at least tend to follow the same rules of the road, barring things like going between vehicles or riding next to one another in the same lane. I see a lot of people on bikes who seem to feel free to choose between sidewalk and road on a moment's notice, showing respect for neither cars nor pedestrians.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Now after saying all that about motorcycles, I do have to agree that percentage wide, motorcyclists do a lot more stupid things than I ever see cars do. It's a bit hypocritical-they want the same respect and awareness that a car receives, but they don't want to follow the same traffic rules as a car.
how difficult is it to get a motorcycle certification on your license bao?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I don't change my driving style for a motorcyclist. I give them the same room and respect I give another car. I shouldn't have to change my habits to accomodate them - if they can't abide by the same traffic laws and share the road with cars without special dispensation, they shouldn't be out there.
The idea that drivers should have to constantly watch out for motorcyclists as if they deserve special dispensation is silly. Like I said, if you can't share the road with me without my having to go an extra mile for you, don't be out there. You're the one choosing to be on a roadway in a vehicle that is patently less safe than a car, any special attention or care should be done by you, not me.
The NY people were incredibly rude, but I can't say I entirely disagree with this sentiment, much as I disagree with the way he expressed it:
quote:No, my dim-witted student friend, your road safety is YOUR responsibility, and it's YOUR problem if someone runs your dumb [expletive removed] over. I know it must make you feel good to have this exciting "us vs. them" thing going on, but it's really very childish and you should grow out of it one of these days.
posted
Well, you can take your bike down to the DMV and take the test, which isn't too bad unless you've got kind of a largish cruiser or a powerful sportsbike that you're new to. I think the skills test varies state to state, but expect low speed maneuverability (like weaving between cones), turns, simulated emergency braking, etc. There is also a written test.
A better route to go is to take a weekend and take the MSF course. It's about 20 hours of instruction, 10 in the classroom and 10 on a bike. If you pass, you get a card. Most state's DMVs will just give you the endorsement if you show them that card. It's also good for insurance discounts.
For the classroom part of MSF it's about 20% motorcycle functionality and about 80% traffic safety/riding habits. For the skills portion of the class they supply small 250 cc bikes for your use. They start out really basic (as in straddling the bike while walking it) and then teach you how to do various manuevers. About 80% of the people in the class had been riding for years without a license, and were taking the class because they tried the test at the DMV on their 1200cc Harley and couldn't pass. The odd thing is that us beginners ended up doing better on the final test- I guess less bad habits or something.
For me personally, the class was very challenging, but I passed the test with flying colors- I got docked 1 point for going one foot too far on the emergency brake test. So it was hard, but doable.
I ride a motorcycle for about 70% economic reasons and 30% fun factor. My bike is a 92 sport bike, but only 500cc. It cost me $950, used. Insurance at 4x's the state minimums (so I could have a couple hundred thousand of uninsured/underinsured motorist protection) was less than $200 for the entire year, I think premiums for state minimums coverage were around $100. It gets 50-55 mpg.
It's really an economical, environmentally friendly, and fun way to get around. The only bummer is safetly. However, just by wearing your gear, not drinking, and taking the MSF course you statistically cut your chances of being in an accident (or seriously injured in one) quite dramatically.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Well, you can take your bike down to the DMV and take the test, which isn't too bad unless you've got kind of a largish cruiser or a powerful sportsbike that you're new to. I think the skills test varies state to state, but expect low speed maneuverability (like weaving between cones), turns, simulated emergency braking, etc. There is also a written test.
A better route to go is to take a weekend and take the MSF course. It's about 20 hours of instruction, 10 in the classroom and 10 on a bike. If you pass, you get a card. Most state's DMVs will just give you the endorsement if you show them that card. It's also good for insurance discounts.
For the classroom part of MSF it's about 20% motorcycle functionality and about 80% traffic safety/riding habits. For the skills portion of the class they supply small 250 cc bikes for your use. They start out really basic (as in straddling the bike while walking it) and then teach you how to do various manuevers. About 80% of the people in the class had been riding for years without a license, and were taking the class because they tried the test at the DMV on their 1200cc Harley and couldn't pass. The odd thing is that us beginners ended up doing better on the final test- I guess less bad habits or something.
For me personally, the class was very challenging, but I passed the test with flying colors- I got docked 1 point for going one foot too far on the emergency brake test. So it was hard, but doable.
I ride a motorcycle for about 70% economic reasons and 30% fun factor. My bike is a 92 sport bike, but only 500cc. It cost me $950, used. Insurance at 4x's the state minimums (so I could have a couple hundred thousand of uninsured/underinsured motorist protection) was less than $200 for the entire year, I think premiums for state minimums coverage were around $100. It gets 50-55 mpg.
It's really an economical, environmentally friendly, and fun way to get around. The only bummer is safetly. However, just by wearing your gear, not drinking, and taking the MSF course you statistically cut your chances of being in an accident (or seriously injured in one) quite dramatically.
I am seriously thinking of getting a motercycle so that my wife can take the car. Even though we both work in the same office, once class starts, our schedules are going nuts. I wish the bus system in Utah was more reliable Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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