posted
My 11 year old sister is currently going to sixth grade at a local charter school.
Their reading assignments go like this: for every single page they read in any book that they read have to write a "prediction" or a "connection" or an "observation". Technically, they were supposed to do two of those per page, but the teacher thought that was too difficult. Not too mention the multitude of book reports and analyses and what have you.
I can't believe it. That method is just...too stupid for words. I think nearly every kid who goes into that kind of system will either come out hating books or liking them less than they did before. Luckily my sister already loves reading.
I hope that they don't take that away from her.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Your sister shouldn't do it. She should just take an F and not do it. If she were my sister, I would encourage her not to do it.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
God that is aggrivating. I would call the teacher and complain about it- explain how unproductive the assignment is, as you see it.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
So many people hate reading because of English class? Or because they're asked to think about what they read? I did plenty of analyses in English class, and I loved to read, and I still love to read. If thinking about reading makes a person hate reading, then I think that person didn't really love it to begin with.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
There's a difference between "thinking about what you read" and "choking every last ounce of enjoyment out of reading", and having an 11 year old child stop reading at the end of every page to do a homework assignment is clearly, in my mind, the latter.
And yeah, while I very much appreciate the writing and critical thinking skills I learned from my intense English classes in high school (by "intense" I mean at one point I wrote 73 pages in three days analyzing King Lear), by the end of them I had completely stopped reading on my own. Seven years later, I still have trouble picking up a book and "just reading". Either I decide immediately that the author doesn't know crap about writing and toss it aside in disgust, or I trudge through it with a little voice in my head critiquing every run-on sentence or poorly-phrased idea. Fun. :-P
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I was helping my friend do that in his senior year of highschool. He was reading things such as "The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner" and "Beowulf", but I found the entire concept repulsive. Once again, I'm incredibly glad I was homeschooled.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by aragorn64: Their reading assignments go like this: for every single page they read in any book that they read have to write a "prediction" or a "connection" or an "observation".
If you had a printer that would print on a continuous feed instead of on individual sheets, you could find an electronic copy of the story and print her a scroll. Technically it'd only be a single page.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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It might be interesting to find out more about this technique before concluding that it will make kids hate reading. Maybe there's a point to it that you haven't been made privy to. Also, when you say "every reading assignment" could you be more explicit? The school year is young. Has this happened three or four times? 8 ir 9? Is it intended to last the entire term?
Surely the suggestion isn't that reading assignments in school should be purely for enjoyment? Perhaps students for whom this is their only exposure to reading might come away hating reading. But a kid who reads a lot ion her own is more likely to dislike this process, than to come away thinking reading is bad...
posted
I had a similar assignment, and what I did was read with a pencil, and whenever something seemed even vaguely interesting, I'd underline it and write a word or two to remind me what I wanted to say about it. That way, I didn't have to stop reading altogether every time I wanted to make a note. I'd just shorthand it and go back and write them out later to hand in.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I can see the theory behind this assignment, but it definitely does seem like overkill. Studies have shown that readers who automatically make connections to their own lives and predictions about the outcome as they read understand far more of what they read than do those that don't. We who read well do it all the time: we think, "Oh, yeah, I hate that feeling when you . . . " or "I'll bet he's the murderer and he . . . " or even, "I'll bet Petra becomes friends with Ender later on."
Some people don't actually do this, and they are considered very poor readers. If a teacher can teach these students what the good readers automatically do, that teacher will give them the gift of understanding what they read.
So the reasoning is sound. But . . . there are a lot of ways to teach these things that don't also kill the desire to read.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Now there's an interesting thought... if a child doesn't naturally empathize with characters in books, could an assignment like this teach them to? I was almost sent home from school the day I finished Bridge to Terabithia, I was crying so hard. But I don't think that was anything I was taught, not that I remember.... hmm...
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Repulsive indeed. I dislike English teachers who forget what is important. The philosophy of the author is important, the prose is important, the characters are important, the plot is mildly important (but much less so than the characters or the writing.) The rest is silence.
Nobody wants to look at every single simile in any given opus. That is just obnoxious. Students should read more books, write more essays and fewer "summaries."
If the teacher wants to know what happens without reading the book, may I suggest SparkNotes?
I am cruel, but I can never understand why a woman with an M.A. in literature feels obliged to make her students summarize ever scene from Marlowe. Goodness knows her professors didn't make her do it at Princeton. Passing a test generally suggests having read the material, writing a good essay does so even more.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
That's so weird. Maybe at the end of a chapter this would make sense, but writing a prediction every thirty seconds to a minute (depending on her reading speed) seems like watching a movie in thirty-second increments! No one would ever do that!
quote:I am cruel, but I can never understand why a woman with an M.A. in literature feels obliged to make her students summarize ever scene from Marlowe.
I've had a professor who purely summarized. You sit there, wondering if it was worth reading the book to hear it all spewed back at you.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Passing a test generally suggests having read the material, writing a good essay does so even more.
Once, my roommate was supposed to write a paper on Brothers Karamazov. He read one chapter in the book the night before, wrote a paper on it, and was given an A with the comment "Nice Focus".
That guy got away with everything. Both his girlfriend and I were waiting to watch him finally go down in flames. We were dissapointed. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm no teacher, and I've never conducted any sorts of studies on the subject.
But come on -- doing one of these every single page is absolutely ridiculous. Like Teshi said, I could see one every chapter. Book reports are acceptable, I suppose. But getting to the point where you have to stop, write a stupid "connection" or "prediction" every time you finish a page will, I think, actually kill your ability to make those predictions and connections naturally. I mean come on, how many kids are going to make 150-200 of those seriously? Eventually they're just going to start making junk up, and who can blame them?
And besides, another major point I meant to bring up is the second people see reading as this huge amount of work, it'll suck every bit of enjoyment out of it (maybe forever, even). In a sense they've been told that reading is merely work (which it definitely is, sometimes) and ought to be avoided at all costs. Case in point: in my high school English classes I'd say only about 1/3 of the students ever actually read anything they assign. (The rest either take bad scores on the assigments, or use SparkNotes.) Most of them will -- and I'm serious here -- brag about how they haven't ever read a single thing of their own volition.
*shrugs* This is all just a layman's opinion, of course.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
It does seem like overkill to me. Stopping the flow every minute or so seems like a good way to break someone out of the spell.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Okay, look, any sentence that starts that way means you aren't qualified to render an opinion on the pedagogic value of the technique. To then say "it's absolutely ridiculous" is, well...absolutely ridiculous -- as in deserving of ridicule.
Here's a thought:
1) Find out what the method is supposed to acccomplish.
2) Find out whether advanced readers who demonstrate excellent comprehension early in the term are likely to have to continue with it.
3) Remember that English language class, and reading assignments have a purpose in a school environment that is not the same as "here's a good book to enjoy."
I'm not saying that this is a great way to accomplish whatever goal, but this just seems like a lame complaint unless you're going to at least find out what the aim of the exercise is. And you still haven't given us details of the "every reading assignment" statement. If this really is on every single thing that this teacher assigns as reading, it does seem like a weird thing to do. If this is assigned on things like character-based fiction in order to assess whether kids are demonstrating good reading comprehension, and maybe use it as a tool to help those with poor comprehension, then that's another matter entirely.
Look...
All I'm saying is ask a few questions first before blasting the teacher and the method. I'm betting this isn't nearly so bad as it's sounding in your posts.
Maybe this teacher only intends to do this for a few assignments early in the term. Maybe she's got a grant and has to do it the kids all year. Maybe this is some stupid thing she made up and is bound and determined to see it through even if every kid in the class hates life. You are making some HUGE assumptions about the teacher, the method, and the attitude of the kids. You have little basis other than your own opinion for making any of those judgements.
I think it's worth spending a little time trying to get information first.
I might agree that this is a bizarre form of torture once I see the answers to a few obvious questions.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Assignments like that are what have driven me away from more classic works. I remember in 9th grade we had to read A Tale of Two Cities and every time a character entered or left the scene we had to write it down. We also had to write down quotes that corresponded to each character, as well as several other things. I know by about a quarter of the way through the book I had over 30 pages of stufff written. It was ridiculous. Needless to say, I began to hate the book, didn't want to read it (as I didn't want to have to do the work attached to the reading), and ended up just cutting corners on the entire last half of the book. A real shame. I'm glad most of my other G/T and AP English classes in high school avoided that stuff for the most part. It really takes any fun out of reading.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Read the classics for fun on your own. That's what I did. I avoided as many reading assignments as possible in high-school and college. In undergrad, I worked hard to get into alternative tracks that didn't have me sitting there reading the classics and writing book reports. I didn't get out of everything, but I managed to avoid English Lit and criticism for the most part. Then, I read them all later on just for fun.
I have to say that anyone who lets a junior-high school experience spoil their enjoyment of great literature for the rest of their life, really only has themself to blame.
Go to B&N, by the cheap-press version of something, and read it. There's no law against reading this stuff for fun.
And much of it IS fun.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
My Hon. Modern Epic prof tried to get us to read Gravity's Rainbow my first year of college.
I hate that book. I refused to read it. And since the whole book is pretty much Pynchon playing a practical joke on intellectuals, I could make up random crap in class discussions, and it worked just fine.
quote:I have to say that anyone who lets a junior-high school experience spoil their enjoyment of great literature for the rest of their life, really only has themself to blame.
I completely disagree with this. If a large percentage of a class come out of it hating reading, I'm going to say that the teacher and system have a responsibility for this. If the techniques the teacher uses are or are similar to ones that have been established through careful research to encourage antipathy for the material, then I think they bear a responsibility.
It's very easy to blame the individual for everything, but I think we need to acknowledge the responsibility of those who influence the person, especially those whose responsibility it is to influence the person.
In addition, the logic of looking at a class where let's say 80% come out with negative feelings for reading and saying "It's their fault." escapes me. If a system is constantly failing, I honestly don't care where the blame lies. Assigning blame isn't going to ameliorate this failure. If there is a different way to do things that has a higher success rate, then that's what we should be using.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Blech! How about having them make a single "connection" or "observation" when they finish a chapter...or better yet, a BOOK?
WHY, WHY, WHY would any teacher agree to turn something as wonderful and fun as reading into a MINDLESS DRUDGERY? Not to mention, encouraging kids to interrupt their flow in a good book to write a stupid, pointless sentence on a piece of paper. I can understand that it's meant to check on reading comprehension, but you can do single-page assignments for that kind of stuff. Sheesh.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:I have to say that anyone who lets a junior-high school experience spoil their enjoyment of great literature for the rest of their life, really only has themself to blame.
I completely disagree with this. If a large percentage of a class come out of it hating reading, I'm going to say that the teacher and system have a responsibility for this. If the techniques the teacher uses are or are similar to ones that have been established through careful research to encourage antipathy for the material, then I think they bear a responsibility.
It's very easy to blame the individual for everything, but I think we need to acknowledge the responsibility of those who influence the person, especially those whose responsibility it is to influence the person.
In addition, the logic of looking at a class where let's say 80% come out with negative feelings for reading and saying "It's their fault." escapes me. If a system is constantly failing, I honestly don't care where the blame lies. Assigning blame isn't going to ameliorate this failure. If there is a different way to do things that has a higher success rate, then that's what we should be using.
Any one want to assert that anywhere near 80% of kids come out of this experience scarred for life?
C'mon. You're all just reacting to this as if it were a present-day assignment for YOU, not a bunch of 11 year olds.
Get a grip, people.
And, yes, if you as an adult have an antipathy for the classics because of some junior high teacher, shame on you.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Libbie: Blech! How about having them make a single "connection" or "observation" when they finish a chapter...or better yet, a BOOK?
WHY, WHY, WHY would any teacher agree to turn something as wonderful and fun as reading into a MINDLESS DRUDGERY? Not to mention, encouraging kids to interrupt their flow in a good book to write a stupid, pointless sentence on a piece of paper. I can understand that it's meant to check on reading comprehension, but you can do single-page assignments for that kind of stuff. Sheesh.
No...mindless drudgery would be copying the words at random.
Thinking about each page before you go on...well, it's not the style of reading I would elect on my own, but, again, if there's a pedagogic reason for it, maybe we should find that out before all turning up our noses.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Bob, I know that if I read a book in school and didn't like it, I wouldn't be inclined to try to read it again. I look at this from a different perspective, though. At that age, I was starting to have severe problems with whether or not I had read something "right," so I would read and re-read paragraph after paragraph. An assignment like this really would have made me lose my mind. I really don't see how it serves any purpose, either. Reading is so much more fun when you can just READ and worry about the analysis or the paper or the whatever later. I think kids need to learn how to read a BOOK, not a bunch of pages.
posted
I always resented it when my teacher punished me because I read ahead. I think it my teacher had tried to make me stop every page, I would have either not done the assignment and been resentful, or read the whole book, then just re-read the chapter and done the assignment later. That's what I usually did. I developed the ability at a very early age to make reasonable hypotheses and observations about what was happening in a chapter even though I knew what was going to happen because I had usually already read the book, or else got caught up the first day it was assigned (they usually were pretty good books) and read the whole thing that night-- and like I said, my teachers usually punished me if they caught me "reading ahead."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Based on the information proffered, this seems like an incredibly lousy technique.
Worse, it sounds like a technique that was more devised to insure that the students were actually reading the book than actually increase their understanding of it. I'm wondering if perhaps the teacher is leery of his or her students turning in book reports they obtained off the internet.
Unless they're reading some kind of student editions, books are not organized as "one coherent thought per page" or "one character introduction per page" or "one grand overriding concept per page". An analysis per chapter or, as some have suggested, for the whole book, would seem to make more sense.
This technique seems like it would create reader fatigue, slow down reading (not necessarily in a good way) and quite possibly cause a reader to end up with fists full of mini-analyses but no particular understanding of the book as a whole- the "forest for the trees" effect.
You are correct, Bob, that I don't know the overall lesson plan, the intent of the method, or whether better readers can opt out. But based on what we've been told, it sounds like something meant to obtain a broad, easily measurable goal (insuring the students have read the book slowly and carefully, perhaps) while failing or even confounding the development of more useful and worthwhile skills (reading and absorbing of long sections, understanding of stories and themes as a whole.)
And while the purpose of a reading assignment may not be the joy of the book, to leech the joy that might be gained out of the reading of it would be a poor decision. And if there is no inherent joy to be gleaned from reading it, I'd have to say in many cases the selection of the book itself must be questionable.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Any one want to assert that anywhere near 80% of kids come out of this experience scarred for life?
I'd ssert that there are several prominent school districts that were studied during the 90s that (edit: consistently) had kids coming out with negative opinions of reading in the range of 80%. I don't know that I'd say that they were necessarily scarred for life, but I would say that this indicates a problem with the way they were educated that goes beyond "shame on them."
quote:Okay, look, any sentence that starts that way means you aren't qualified to render an opinion on the pedagogic value of the technique. To then say "it's absolutely ridiculous" is, well...absolutely ridiculous -- as in deserving of ridicule.
I will admit that a person with less specialization in a subject will not have the same level of understanding and insight on it.
I apologize for not knowing more about the method before hand. I don't know the teacher, and I don't know the studies, blah blah blah. (And yes, I asked my sister and she says that it's a standard method that their school requires for every reading assignment.)
Maybe I was jumping to conclusions; but I'll stand by my assertion that this method is more harmful than helpful.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Okay, look, any sentence that starts that way means you aren't qualified to render an opinion on the pedagogic value of the technique. To then say "it's absolutely ridiculous" is, well...absolutely ridiculous -- as in deserving of ridicule.
What? So you can't have an opinion on the value of something unless you are trained, somehow, in that specific thing?
We all have experience as students, and therefore any one of us is perfectly qualified to form an opinion on the value of the effectiveness of certain teaching methods, don't you think?
I don't necessarily think a student has to understand the theory behind *why* a teacher is using a specific method in order to understand whether or not it is working.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Libbie: Blech! How about having them make a single "connection" or "observation" when they finish a chapter...or better yet, a BOOK?
WHY, WHY, WHY would any teacher agree to turn something as wonderful and fun as reading into a MINDLESS DRUDGERY? Not to mention, encouraging kids to interrupt their flow in a good book to write a stupid, pointless sentence on a piece of paper. I can understand that it's meant to check on reading comprehension, but you can do single-page assignments for that kind of stuff. Sheesh.
No...mindless drudgery would be copying the words at random.
Thinking about each page before you go on...well, it's not the style of reading I would elect on my own, but, again, if there's a pedagogic reason for it, maybe we should find that out before all turning up our noses.
It sounds dull and boring to 26-year-old me. How much more dull and boring would it sound to 11-year-old me? Would YOU want to do this assignment as an eleven-year-old, Bob? Would you feel excited about reading if your teacher made you stop every few paragraphs to write a bunch of stuff down?
Like I said, at the end of a chapter, dandy. At the end of a page? It seems like ridiculous overkill. How many predictions or connections can you make every five paragraphs...in an ENTIRE BOOK?
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Any one want to assert that anywhere near 80% of kids come out of this experience scarred for life?
I'd ssert that there are several prominent school districts that were studied during the 90s that (edit: consistently) had kids coming out with negative opinions of reading in the range of 80%. I don't know that I'd say that they were necessarily scarred for life, but I would say that this indicates a problem with the way they were educated that goes beyond "shame on them."
I know with very few exceptions, my reading instruction in elementary school was bland at best, and frustrating at worst. The only reason I like reading as well as I do is because my mother taught me to read early. Very early. I read Charlotte's Web to her at age three.
The reason why my mom taught me to read as a baby: All of her experiences in reading came from the way she was taught in elementary school. Even today, at age fifty, she can barely finish a fairly simple novel in six months. She just HATES reading. Her only explanation is that she "doesn't understand how to do it right." She got through four very grueling years of pre-med and OT school, so she is obviously literate. I believe what she means is that she doesn't understand - and never learned - how to string the flow of a story together in her mind. She gets so caught up in taking things "one paragraph at a time" that the entire story becomes a blur to her. It makes me a little sad to realize that once I get something published, my mom probably won't even be able to read it - or at least, she won't really comprehend it as a complete story, just as a series of paragraphs that sort of seem to go together.
I think the teaching of reading hasn't changed that much since my mom was in elementary school, and that's a damn shame.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I think it's pretty telling that almost every person criticizing this technique is saying things like "I don't see what purpose it serves..." or something like that. Exactly...you don't. But it's okay to criticize in ignorance, right?
All I've been saying is find out BEFORE you criticize. Sure, it seems like a bad way to teach a reading assignment, but maybe that's not the purpose of the lesson. I don't know. None of us do. I've seen at least two possible explanations (reading comprehension exercises and "making sure the kids actually read the assignments") that could provide at least some motivation for the exercise.
Something tells me that there may be another factor at work. If this really is a "school-wide" style, I start to suspect that the school or district admins obtained a teaching grant and/or have made this school part of some pilot implementation of a new technique. I think some of the teachers on this forum could vouch for the fact that schools sometimes adopt new techniques or curriculae in exchange for funds, or because they are otherwise part of some study that the state has put together. Often, the teachers really hate this stuff because it ties their hands and makes them adopt techniques that they had no hand in developing -- essentially turning them into technique deliverers rather than educators.
I don't know if that's what going on here, but if I were a parent of a child exposed to this, here's what I would do:
1) I'd have already talked to the teacher to find out what was the aim of this technique and what made them think it was better than other obvious methods that seem to have worked in the past.
2) If my child was showing signs of diminshed interest in English language arts and reading, I'd make that fact known to the teacher and ask for a plan on how to address the problem in the school setting.
3) If I was still unsatisfied, I would escalate to the Principal and discuss the matter in frank and honest terms regarding what I wanted to see different, and to ask if there was a different track that my child could participate in -- again, assuming I felt like this particular method was crap.
4) If that didn't work, I would appeal to the district to change the policy or transfer my child out of that school.
5) If that didn't work, I'd take my kid out of the school system either by home-schooling or finding a private school that taught things the way I thought was best for my child.
But...first and foremost, I'd ask a lot of questions. I wouldn't just automatically label this -- call it "the reason people hate reading" issue pronouncements about busy-work, or what have you.
If you have kids, you have to decide if the public school system is right for your child or not. You can ignore things or gripe about them without understanding them, or you can find out and participate.
Finally...I have zero sympathy for any adult who blames their teachers for their current lack of interest in the classics. Seriously...so you had a bad teacher...if you want to read a book, read it. If you don't, then don't. It's your choice, not some person 20 years in your past (or whatever).
I'm not "blaming" anyone. I just don't think a crummy teacher is a good excuse for something like "I don't want to read Dickens." Bad teachers can turn you off to a subject, but if you express an interest in reading something and don't read it...well...who loses? And who is stopping you? Suddenly you have a mental block against the classics and can't pick one up without palpitations?
quote:Originally posted by Libbie: Blech! How about having them make a single "connection" or "observation" when they finish a chapter...or better yet, a BOOK?
WHY, WHY, WHY would any teacher agree to turn something as wonderful and fun as reading into a MINDLESS DRUDGERY? Not to mention, encouraging kids to interrupt their flow in a good book to write a stupid, pointless sentence on a piece of paper. I can understand that it's meant to check on reading comprehension, but you can do single-page assignments for that kind of stuff. Sheesh.
No...mindless drudgery would be copying the words at random.
Thinking about each page before you go on...well, it's not the style of reading I would elect on my own, but, again, if there's a pedagogic reason for it, maybe we should find that out before all turning up our noses.
It sounds dull and boring to 26-year-old me. How much more dull and boring would it sound to 11-year-old me? Would YOU want to do this assignment as an eleven-year-old, Bob? Would you feel excited about reading if your teacher made you stop every few paragraphs to write a bunch of stuff down?
Like I said, at the end of a chapter, dandy. At the end of a page? It seems like ridiculous overkill. How many predictions or connections can you make every five paragraphs...in an ENTIRE BOOK?
I haven't said once that I would choose this technique. I just have to ask what my feelings about it have to do with the main question which is: does it have pedagogic value?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Isn't it interesting that the people who ARE interested in reading got that way because of their parents, not their school. And it started way before school age.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I don't necessarily think a student has to understand the theory behind *why* a teacher is using a specific method in order to understand whether or not it is working.
Any response to this?
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think it depends on what you mean by the theory. You certainly need to know what the method is trying to do to know if it's working, though I suppose you don't necessarily have to know how.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:You certainly need to know what the method is trying to do to know if it's working, though I suppose you don't necessarily have to know how.
Do you need to know what the method is trying to do to know whether or not you are learning anything, or to know whether or not it is making you miserable?
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
That wasn't the original question. The question I answered is "Does a student have to understand the theory behind why a teacher is using a specific method in order to understand whether or not it is working". To answer your next question (or at least address it) I don't think whether or not it is making you miserable is necessarily the point. Learning something and enjoying something are not always the same thing. Obviously you don't need to know what the method is to know whether it is making you miserable. And since the point of a specific method may or may not be about trying to get students to learn (making sure they are doing the assignment in the first place could in fact be the point), I think knowing what the point is is important simply to know whether the student is supposed to be learning anything.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Bob, If I take a kid and condition him by pairing the color green with noxious stimuli, whose fault is it that he hates broccoli?
Many of the explanations for the failure of contemporary educational techniques rest partially on processes on the level of associative conditioning that sap motivation and create reactions to the taught things as noxious. These can be overcome, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's only the person's fault if they aren't.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Your analogy to conditioning theory is ridiculous.
quote:Many of the explanations for the failure of contemporary educational techniques rest partially on processes on the level of associative conditioning that sap motivation and create reactions to the taught things as noxious.
Really?
quote:These can be overcome, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's only the person's fault if they aren't.
That might be precisely why I didn't ascribe blame. I objected to the attitude of blaming a past teacher. I didn't say anything about blaming the individual. I said, repeatedly, that if you want to read something, you should, and that if want to read it and don't, shame on you -- don't blame a bad teacher.
Question: Why, in a thread ABOUT reading comprehension, am I having to explain points I've made quite clear?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I don't necessarily think a student has to understand the theory behind *why* a teacher is using a specific method in order to understand whether or not it is working.
Any response to this?
In some cases, knowing the theory behind why a teacher is using a specific method might actually render the method ineffective.
But to answer your larger question, measures of effectiveness can exist in absence of understanding. I didn't see anyone offering any measures of effectiveness. I saw a lot of judgements about the effectiveness of what people thought the method was, and I saw a lot of people projecting their current selves into a situation that has been presented by an 11 year old to her brother and then to us.
We don't have any details about what the method is, how it is really being applied, OR what the theory is.
But let's all call it horrible and say that it's killing the "love of reading" that some kids have!
I say we burn the schools, and then find out what this was all about!!!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Bob, Do you know any of the research surrounding this issue?
Because, from my reading, which is pretty extensive, my analogy isn't ridiculous, nor is it completely an analogy. I'm reasonably sure I've established myself as someone who can generally be trusted to have a pretty good idea of what he's taking about when he represents himself as knowledgeable. I don't believe I deserve to be dismissed so cavalierly.
Also, perhaps we have different interpretations of what it means to say "shame on you". To me this carries a very stong element of blaming the person, of saying that it is their fault. If they are not to blame and if it isn't their fauly, I don't see how it's fair to think they should have shame over it.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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MrSquicky. Link to research surrounding this issue?
Put up or shut up. I'm pretty well versed in conditioning theory and, frankly, while I've seen people in the education realm totally misuse the terminology and concept from experimental psychology before, I am finding it difficult to imagine that your analogy is really something in the mainstream of educational research. In particular, I'd like to see the concept of "associative conditioning" laid out in an article from a contemporary education theorist and then linked to a particular pedagogic technique. It need not necessarily be the one we've been discussing here, but let's see something on "noxious stimuli" and associative conditioning, please.
As for "shame on you." You said something about ONLY the person being to blame. I never said that. I said if an adult stops themselves from reading something and blames their junior high English teacher, then shame on them. As in -- it's a shame they don't just go do what they obviously want to do. There's nobody stopping them, and to blame some fool teacher from their past is not healthy or productive. So, yes, it's a shame -- shame on them.
What else should I call it when adults play the victim for something they have complete control over in their lives? Is it society's fault that they can't bring themselves to go to a library and take out a book? Seriously? Should they be allowed to sue their prior teacher for the lost potential in their lives?
Is blame productive or useful in this instance? I'm not blaming them. I'm suggesting they go do something about it. If you want to read something, go read it. If you want to read it and don't, then don't whine about it. You have every opportunity to do what you want with respect to reading material. If you choose not to avail yourself of the freely available resources at your disposal, then that's your choice. It's not the fault of some person in your past.
GAh! You're talking like they strap kids down and shock them.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Bob and Icarus are right; we don't know what the goal here is. I have a friend who teaches at a school in Boston where they take incoming ninth-graders who are functioning at a fourth grade level and graduate them in four years ready for college. Do they use intensive methods like this? You better believe it. They are teaching the kids to PROCESS.
Do I read for entertainment this way? No. Who would? (Except for House of Leaves.) But, um. They are not reading for entertainment in the classroom, either. Should they be?? Not that learning can't be enjoyable, not that reading isn't pleasurable for its own sake. But that is not the only goal, any more than the only goal of running a race is the joy of taking in deep breaths of air and feeling the smack of the pavement traveling rhythmically through our muscles. Sometimes running is part of a system of physical fitness, sometimes it is running for your life, sometimes for a medal, sometimes for the sheer joy of running in the autumn. (That's my limping analogy.)
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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Do you really think you have enough info to say this?
Meh. In my experience, over half of the work in high school is really busy work, so it's not that big a deal to say that this is probably busy work as well, especially since it looks like busy work.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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