posted
I had to do something like that last year. For every page we had to write down two 3 sentence thoughts on what was going on. At the end of the marking period we needed to have 200 of those. I didn't see the point in it so I ended up doing 3 before I stopped. I hate English class mainly because of stupid assignments like this. Everybody else in the class did them, only to find out that the teacher didn't even count them as a grade. I thought it was pretty funny but everyone else didn't think so.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Bob, I'll ask again, are you familiar with the research?
Here's a book that addresses the issue from a this perspective. Here's an interview with the author.
quote:for something they have complete control over in their lives
And here's our point of contention. Ultimately, I believe that assigning blame is almost always counter- or at least non-productive, but we're talking about this is a context where how kids are currently getting taught and will be taught is relevant. As I said, when we're getting numbers like 80% of them coming out regarding reading negatively, I think this indicates serious problems with how they are being taught.
It's easy to say shame on you. We've had some huge blow ups around here recently because people are saying "Shame on you for being fat." And yet, for some reason, this one is different. To mirror that other conversation, I would regard people who don't like reading as less attractive both romantically and for friendships and I anticipate none of the attacks and accusations I got for the same statement about obese people.
I honestly don't know how much negative effect certain styles of teaching have on people. And, as I said, focusing on who to blame in terms of how to get them to read now isn't useful. But I'm pretty darn sure that they are not in complete control and that they way they were taught has some effect.
I don't tell fat people "shame on you." And in the same way, I don't tell people who don't like reading "shame on you." I'm not comfortable making the judgements involved. What I can do is try to encourage them to do otherwise.
edit: One thing that, looking back, I realize I haven't made clear is that the primary obstacle I see to people reading is that they really do't find it enjoyable. They canread, but they're going to derive very little pleasure from it. This can be gotten around, but, not, I think, by the person saying "I'm going to read this book and enjoy it."
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: MrSquicky,
Your analogy to conditioning theory is ridiculous.
quote:Many of the explanations for the failure of contemporary educational techniques rest partially on processes on the level of associative conditioning that sap motivation and create reactions to the taught things as noxious.
Really?
quote:These can be overcome, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's only the person's fault if they aren't.
That might be precisely why I didn't ascribe blame. I objected to the attitude of blaming a past teacher. I didn't say anything about blaming the individual. I said, repeatedly, that if you want to read something, you should, and that if want to read it and don't, shame on you -- don't blame a bad teacher.
Question: Why, in a thread ABOUT reading comprehension, am I having to explain points I've made quite clear?
Bob,
You are so very abrasive.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I love when people who've been here a couple months make judgment calls about people that have been valuable members of this community for years.
In other words, Libbie, maybe you don't know Bob well enough to say that, do you think that's possible?
If you have something to say about what Bob has posted, then say it, along the lines of "Wow, Bob, that was an abrasive post."
But you honestly shouldn't be calling HIM abrasive because, well, he's not. Personal attacks aren't really welcome here. Criticize the idea or the posting style - that's fine, but don't attack or insult the person.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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In response to the title/ first post - I would say that's not necessarily why people hate reading, it's why they hate school, homework, their teachers, etc. It may also prevent people from learning to enjoy reading since they associate it with busy work which the majority of people find unproductive. However, an assignment like this might have been useful for me when I was doing things like reading Faust in German, since it's not my first language and one page can take a bit of time to get through. Maybe also an ok idea for short chapter books when students are at that reading level. *shrug*
Anyway, I would have failed that class based on the fact that I have better things to do with my life. If it's making her crazy, I would try to drop that class in favor of another one or do independent study or something.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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A link to a book that no-one can actually access without purchasing is not sufficient to make your point. Judging from the title, the book has to do with artificial incentives. What that has to do with the original post, and your analogy about broccoli is escaping me at the moment.
Libbie. I'm upset. I read the thread title. Then I read the first post. Then I read a bunch of posts basically saying that the teacher doesn't know how to teach and that this will ruin every kid's love of reading.
I tried to make a simple point which was (and still is) that we don't know what anything about this method except what an 11 year old told her brother and then he translated to post here. I, personally, find the current vogue of blaming teachers for the ills of the world to be repugnant. I come from a long line of teachers and I know what they go through to prepare a class and to help their students to learn. I don't mind if people have something specific to back up their claims -- data, details, ...something... But I will admit to getting really upset when people just start going off on how BAD something is without asking even the most basic of questions.
And then we have people start throwing "research" around without producing ANY of it...and asking me if I'm "aware of the current research..." I've asked twice -- link to it. And what do I get? A link to Amazon where I can buy a book that apparently has nothing to do with this discussion, but instead talks about "competition."
I have a problem with having to repeat myself, yes, when people are getting upset about "reading comprehension." I think it's tragically ironic that people can get so upset about a teacher doing something they don't understand, but can't take the time to understand the contrary point of view enough to stop misinterpreting it.
And Mr. Squicky has finally agreed with me that Blame is useless (a thing I have said at least 4 times) and then told me that I don't understand that.
Libbie, from my perspective, several of the people on this thread are being purposefully dense and abrasive. I was forceful in my responses to them because I think they are talking without having anything like real information either about this specific case or about education in general.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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I think where people are talking past each other here is missing the part of Bob's posts where he says if people want to read something and don't, then shame on them. He's not saying if people don't like to read, shame on them. Not enjoying reading could be linked to bad teaching, or not being read to growing up, or too short of an attention span, or just personal taste. But for someone who does enjoy reading to saying they've always wanted to read the classics but don't based on a bad experience in high school? Meh, I don't feel much sympathy.
I'll also note that's different from saying "I've always wanted to read the classics to see what the big deal was about (or to feel more well-rounded, or whatever) but I've tried and I just can't get through them, they're too dry." That's admitting you don't like something, which is perfectly valid. Not trying to blame your dislike on a teacher from a couple of decades ago.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Certainly, Bob is being no more "abrasive" than most of the posts commenting negatively about the assignment.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I think where the confusion may be happening, ElJay, is that some of us may be thinking of people who don't enjoy reading, for whatever reason, possibly bad school experiences, but wish they had read the classics (or had read more of them, or actually remembered them rather than having had them analyzed to death and shoved down their throats but they were such a bad experience that they were forgotten two months later) in order to get the allusions people make, or whatever, but dislike reading so much that they can't get through them.
I used to want to go rock climbing, but had a pretty bad fear of heights which kept me from ever being successful at it.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Yeah, kq. . . that's why I thought the clarification was in order.
No problem, Bob. That's what I thought you said, too, but it certainly didn't seem to be what some people were responding to. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:I love when people who've been here a couple months make judgment calls about people that have been valuable members of this community for years.
I'm uncomfortable with treating somebody's posts differently because of how long they have or have not been a member of the forum.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Actually, I agree with mph on this. I was (briefly) on a board where the long time folks were given much more leeway than any newbies or infrequent posters and it was a lot like bullying. The typical response if someone complained was "Oh that's just his way." Essentially telling the injured party to get over their hurt feelings.
I would not want to be party to bullying of that sort.
If I came on too strong re: the first post, I do apologize. My only excuse is that I do NOT like people complaining about teachers without having their facts first. And I really felt like we don't have nearly enough information to make any but obvious personal comments about this particular teaching technique.
I think there's almost no-one who would choose to read a book that way. I also think that there's not a teacher on the planet who would personally choose to read a book that way, or think that anyone else would want to read a book that way. Given that, I'm willing to assume that there's at least the possibility that the teacher had some goal in mind in using that technique.
Whether it worked or not is, to me, an open question. So far, all we really know is:
1) none of us would like it, and, 2) an 11-year-old with strong reading skills doesn't like it.
I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with people saying they wouldn't like it. I'd be amazed to hear anyone saying they would enjoy this.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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So I assume you are all for the idea of just calling the teacher and complaining. Maybe the teacher will actually convince him that she/he is right and its a good assignment. My personal prediction is that the teacher did it without giving it enough thought, is new, or subscribes to some ill-concieved method of teaching which conveniently creates paperwork "proof" that the class is learning. I remember these teachers from my elementary school days- my tedious homework assignments (like drawing a picture of every chapter in a book ) were touted as products of my education on parent night. That's just my prediction based on experience.
I'd like to see you go a little further Bob, and tell us why you think the assignment might be useful. Just curious, but I am trying to imagine the teacher's stated reasons for this idea, and they just seem pretty lame. What are your thoughts?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:So I assume you are all for the idea of just calling the teacher and complaining.
From what I can tell, that not what he's suggesting at all. It seems to me the suggestion is to call and ask why the work was assigned and what it was supposed to accomplish. Find out the facts first, and then if it seemed necessary, say something about it.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I'm not saying posts should be treated differently based on how long you've been here. I was simply trying to make the point that Libbie couldn't possibly know Bob well enough to make a judgment about him. Likewise, I don't think I know Libbie well enough to make a judgment about her because she's only been here a couple of months.
I do think I know Bob's posting style and personality well enough to say that he's not normally an abrasive person, though, because I've been interacting with Bob for years. Libbie doesn't have that amount of experience with him so she shouldn't be making that type of statement.
That's all I was trying to say. This seems to be the thread for having to explain yourself. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Orincoro, On page 1 of this thread you'll find a detailed outline of what I would do if I were a parent of a child in this class and was concerned about the impact it was having on my child. My stance hasn't changed since then.
As for why this assignment "might" be useful, I hesistate to speculate because I really don't know the kids or the concern of the teacher. Anything I say would be pure speculation. Someone earlier mentioned that it might be a method aimed at artificially stimulating the readers' reading comprehension -- I think it was something about building empathy with the characters...I don't know.
Also, someone mentioned using this as a technique to ensure that the children read the entire assignment.
Both of those alternatives sound like they might be "useful" in certain settings and, one hopes, as temporary techniques either to identify the kids who need additional help or to teach the children not to skip assignments.
But I didn't come up with those ideas and I would love to hear what this teacher was hoping to accomplish.
And, as I said earlier, if I had a child in this class, I would call the teacher and make sure I understood what the purpose is before deciding what (if anything) to do beyond that.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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If the kids aren't learning anything, at least they've been kept busy.
OK, I am jumping in here as The Guilty Party.
What the teacher is having her students do is something called Guided Reading. As far as I have seen in my classroom, no child's brain has ever been harmed by it.
There are a few assumptions I see floating around here.
The first assumption is that the reading assignment is meant to generate pleasure. It is not. It is designed to internalize a process which many readers can already do automatically, but which many young readers cannot.
A second assumption is that the reading done in school is all literature. Reading assignments should be more focused toward nonfiction than fiction, and selections should be taken from all core subjects, even math. I firmly believe that students are failing state math tests not becasue of the math as much as the reading of the questions. (most reading of literature is done in the language arts class, not the reading class)
Another assumption is that this teacher is heinous and is just creating busywork to save her skin. And this makes me laugh heartily! Ha ha!(imagine a hearty laugh) Do you really think I give these assignments to create busywork, so that the busywork, multiplied by however many students I have, comes crashing down on my head when I have to correct it? Remember, it is the beginning of the year. We do not know our students yet. We are still in the process of figuring out what strengths and weaknesses they have.
Some students come to me "fully formed" as readers. I let them go at their own pace. They love to read, and zip through guided reading assignments without complaint. It is clear to me that they do not need this activity.
Some students, though, cannot read. They need to learn specific strategies that are not natural to them. They may not use all of them, but the bigger their bag of tricks, the better.
So, remember, a teacher does not wake up in the morning, drag him or herself out of bed, rub her hands together, and whisper(a la Peter Lorrie): "He he, how shall I make the children's learning more unenjoyable today..."
Disclaimer: I have not read every post. I skipped through the vitriol. I apologize if I have repeated stuff.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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As for children loving to read, I have not seen any practice or curriculum in twenty years of teaching which ensures a child will love reading. Some people love it, some people don't. Most of us on this forum are here because we love the writing of a particular author. We love to read.
I was the child who hated to put down a book. I loved to read anything, I loved to answer questions about the reading, I loved to talk about what I had read.
I read to my children as babies, as toddlers, as young children, and now. I make sure they set aside time to read.
They really don't love reading. My daughter went through a spurt, my son loves animal facts(Eye Witness type books) and sports stats, but could care less about novels.
It kills me! I imagined a house full of quiet O'Briens, busily reading books in our separate corners of the living room.
They just don't love it, nor do I think they learned this nonlove from school. Many of their friends are avid readers. Their father is all about Fact, and could care less about Fiction.
I think there is a cultural surge in this country which we are just beginning to see, and which I have absolutely no sound evidence for, but which I call my Gameboy theory.
Life these days is about jumping in and playing the game. Kids are not interested in planning, in reading directions, in any of the things which seemed standard fare for us old farts. And when I think about it, it makes sense. They do not have to keep track of a checkbook, they can punch up their balance on an ATM. They can find information instantly with a few key words typed in to Google.
I think this is different, not bad, and I think we need to start judging this generation by their own cultural standards, not by ours.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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In other words, Libbie, maybe you don't know Bob well enough to say that, do you think that's possible?
Really? I can't form an opinion on whether I find somebody abrasive based on my experiences with them?
So I guess I need to go back and read all of the archives before I can decide how people strike me, yes?
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Libbie. I'm upset. I read the thread title. Then I read the first post. Then I read a bunch of posts basically saying that the teacher doesn't know how to teach and that this will ruin every kid's love of reading.
I tried to make a simple point which was (and still is) that we don't know what anything about this method except what an 11 year old told her brother and then he translated to post here. I, personally, find the current vogue of blaming teachers for the ills of the world to be repugnant. I come from a long line of teachers and I know what they go through to prepare a class and to help their students to learn. I don't mind if people have something specific to back up their claims -- data, details, ...something... But I will admit to getting really upset when people just start going off on how BAD something is without asking even the most basic of questions.
And then we have people start throwing "research" around without producing ANY of it...and asking me if I'm "aware of the current research..." I've asked twice -- link to it. And what do I get? A link to Amazon where I can buy a book that apparently has nothing to do with this discussion, but instead talks about "competition."
I have a problem with having to repeat myself, yes, when people are getting upset about "reading comprehension." I think it's tragically ironic that people can get so upset about a teacher doing something they don't understand, but can't take the time to understand the contrary point of view enough to stop misinterpreting it.
And Mr. Squicky has finally agreed with me that Blame is useless (a thing I have said at least 4 times) and then told me that I don't understand that.
Libbie, from my perspective, several of the people on this thread are being purposefully dense and abrasive. I was forceful in my responses to them because I think they are talking without having anything like real information either about this specific case or about education in general.
Thank you for explaining, Bob. From my perspective, it looked more like you were telling everybody that their opinions were wrong, because you said so. That is something that I find dense and abrasive.
I disagree with you that they have no real information about education in general. In this case, it seems like everybody who's ever been a student has an equally valid perspective on whether the situation, as described, could potentially ruin reading for them. You were bascially telling everybody who disagreed with you that they had no basis for forming an opinion on this topic, which I found to be abrasive. If that was not your intent, and I didn't comprehend what I read well enough, then I apologize.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:I love when people who've been here a couple months make judgment calls about people that have been valuable members of this community for years.
I'm uncomfortable with treating somebody's posts differently because of how long they have or have not been a member of the forum.
posted
"So I guess I need to go back and read all of the archives before I can decide how people strike me, yes?"
Libbie, in this case, yes.
If you toss him into the basket labelled "abrasive," you might not find the other baskets he hangs out in, such as the "funniest man alive" basket, the "extremely objective" basket, the "wonderful friend, husband and father" basket, the "incredibly intuitive" basket, and so many others.
Bob, stop hiding in the abrasive basket! Weave in some humor! Stop being so warped! Your abrasive side is looming over us!
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: Libbie, in this case, yes.
If you toss him into the basket labelled "abrasive," you might not find the other baskets he hangs out in, such as the "funniest man alive" basket, the "extremely objective" basket, the "wonderful friend, husband and father" basket, the "incredibly intuitive" basket, and so many others.
Bob, stop hiding in the abrasive basket! Weave in some humor! Stop being so warped! Your abrasive side is looming over us!
I never said he wasn't also funny and intuitive. Generally, most people who are funny and smart and intuitive can also come across as abrasive sometimes. Usually because they're confident in their own opinions.
Abrasiveness isn't always a BAD thing. Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I guess what I'm saying is that he is not usually abrasive at all. In fact, I don't even think he has been abrasive in this thread. (OK, maybe once)
Bob's opinions are strong, but he does not put them forth disrespectfully, and he listens to the other side of the argument and often changes his opinion.
He will find this Bob-praise abrasive, though, so I shall stop.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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The first assumption is not one that I made, but I think it may be one that you saw in another comment. The idea that this assignment will kill the love of reading doesn't, for me, mean it that it will stop the kids from enjoying any book, but it will certainly stop them from having any desire to read this one book. I had plenty of tedious, needless assignments in my middle school years that I am positive made me hate the work we were looking at- but yeah, I still love books.
I know much of the reading done in school is not literature, but I think you'll easily agree with me that THIS type of reading- math and science texts, history, and other subjects, is often poorly handled. Either the writing is an invitation to slumber, or the assignments at the end of the chapters are mind numbing and tedious; rarely is a classroom text engagingly and interestingly written iirc. There is NO reason why they shouldn't be, they just aren't, in my experience. You may have found better books (I hope so), but plenty of school districts still rely on terrible books.
I absolutely understand about the students who can't read. Its so, so sad. I work at a teen center, and I have actually had a few teens, one in particular, who I've discovered are unable to read. One scrawled two letters on our sign in sheet,and when I approached him, (he is maybe 13), he was unable to spell his own first name. He was also unable to correctly spell the name of his school. Another shift leader told me later that this kid seemed to have to the mind of a 4 year old, and yet he appeared completely normal, and had normal (for a 13 year old) conversations with his friends.
The frustration I felt with people my own age when I was 13 came back to me that day, and it was an interesting feeling to be confronted with that hard fact again. Alot of these people can't do basic, necessary things.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Libbie, I guess you either didn't read my posts or totally missed the part where I said it was perfectly acceptable to find someone's posting style abrasive and say so. What I took exception to was you calling Bob, the person Bob, abrasive. Had you simply said "I find your posting style abrasive" I would certainly not have had anything to say to you about it.
All I wanted to point out is that labeling someone you can't possibly know well is probably not a good idea. Criticize the ideas or the posting style all you want to, but keep your snap judgments about people to yourself. That's all I'm suggesting, you're free to accept that advice or ignore it as you please.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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"I absolutely understand about the students who can't read."
Well, by not being able to read, I do not mean the children are illiterate. What I mean is that they are unable to find the information they need in a reading passage.
The guided reading exercise is something which all of us who are "good readers" automatically do. Once I recognize that someone is able to pull information from a reading selection, I can move them on to more open-ended reading assignments. The kids who have trouble, though, I will take step by step. Most teachers I know will do this. Still, it takes a little time to figure out my students' reading strengths and weaknesses, and I hate to base that on their records. I like to see it for myself.
One thing I do is read aloud. It gives those who have a tough time reading a chance to join in a conversation about a story that they would most likely not be able to read. I choose a book that is above the fifth grade reading level, and we have amazing discussions.
My dad taught for forty-five years. One of the things he was OK with(which surprised me), was letting kids see a movie before reading a book. This is anaethema to me. But his point was that many kids need the visual picture BEFORE they read. I have such a strong visualization of what I read that I do not want that marred by seeing a movie first.
So, in general, I would just caution good readers in their judgement of teachers' decisions to teach reading in a prescriptive, direct way. Many kids really, really need it. For those who don't, the hope is that the curriculum is differentiated enough that they are challenged. Let me tell you, these kids are the challenges for teachers, not those who are struggling. (at least, that is my case)
A fellow teacher said to me, when I asked about what he did for the advanced kids, "Kids who are that advanced need to have courses taught after school, or they need to go to private school. Public school teachers need to focus on raising the scores of the lower students."
I felt like throwing up. I completely disagree. What NCLB has done to the advanced learner is a crime much greater than what has been "done" to students of low skill. We are told to focus on raising particular scores. It gets down to data, like, Johnny B. needs to gain two points on his MCAS so he will show improvement. Therefore, top students are left to flail on their own, since we can count on their scores to be high.
This is a different discussion, but not really. A reader with a high reading level should not have to do guided reading. They should get the questions at the end, or display their knowledge in another way. It can be done. All levels can be taught in one classroom, and kids can feel OK about whatever level they are working at. The problem is, many teachers are so afraid to spend the time to develop a community in their classrooms where all levels of learning are respected, that it often backfires. I make it very clear that there are two things which will really piss me off: 1. Making fun of someone who makes a mistake. 2. Giving a substitute a hard time.
Once I make it clear that everyone in the room has the right to make a mistake without the fear of ridicule, the ridiculing stops. But so many people are afraid to "waste" the time, because they are focused on following their state guidelines. Integrated curriculum? Great idea! Sorry, I can't do that. I have to get through such and such unit.
We are raising a bunch of kids who cannot make connections, because they are not allowed to see connections happen naturally. Gameboy theory again. Learning is compartmentalized. It is really tough to say: is education creating this style of learning, or is the culture of youth creating this style of education? Either way, it seems like there are more square pegs for round holes.
Sorry for the babbling. I am really trying to figure this out. If it seems like I have a strong opinion, I really don't. I have a strong inkling, and I am worried that what is being done with NCLB is setting us back. Way back. There are changes occurring in kids that are greater than we have ever seen, and I think we are missing the boat.
Again, sorry for the rant/babble. It has been much on my mind these days, as we spend hours upon hours "analyzing the data."
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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I don't know what the difference between "you are abrasive" and "you come across as abrasive" could be since abrasiveness describes how you come across to others.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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One describes the person that you are and makes a judgment on your inherent being (Bob's Bobness). The other describes how you said something, which may or may not have anything to do with your inherent being. So, Bob's post may have come across as abrasive (depending your POV), but Bob's inherent Bobness cannot be called abrasive from one post.
Or, I could just be blowing smoke. And trying to avoid doing work that I need to be doing.
Plus, I wanted an excuse to post something using the word Bobness. Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: Libbie, I guess you either didn't read my posts or totally missed the part where I said it was perfectly acceptable to find someone's posting style abrasive and say so. What I took exception to was you calling Bob, the person Bob, abrasive. Had you simply said "I find your posting style abrasive" I would certainly not have had anything to say to you about it.
All I wanted to point out is that labeling someone you can't possibly know well is probably not a good idea. Criticize the ideas or the posting style all you want to, but keep your snap judgments about people to yourself. That's all I'm suggesting, you're free to accept that advice or ignore it as you please.
Aha, gotcha. I guess I misunderstood the point you were making.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I don't know what the difference between "you are abrasive" and "you come across as abrasive" could be since abrasiveness describes how you come across to others.
That's what I thought, too, m_p_h. I guess others interpret the whole "abrasive" thing differently, though. Fair enough.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: One describes the person that you are and makes a judgment on your inherent being (Bob's Bobness). The other describes how you said something, which may or may not have anything to do with your inherent being. So, Bob's post may have come across as abrasive (depending your POV), but Bob's inherent Bobness cannot be called abrasive from one post.
Or, I could just be blowing smoke. And trying to avoid doing work that I need to be doing.
Plus, I wanted an excuse to post something using the word Bobness.
No, I suppose that makes it a bit clearer for me. And Bobness is a great word.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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And here I was planning on doing my sanding with Bob.
Although I suppose Dana might not have liked that much.
Of course, I'm inclined to cut Bob a little slack right now if something he says doesn't come across as polite as he usually seems to try for, since he has a newborn living at his house.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Liz, I actually knew what you mean by "can't read" but I was just sharing the extreme example. I find quite a few people can't really read with comprehension either- but to not be able to spell your name... that just stuck in my mind.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: A fellow teacher said to me, when I asked about what he did for the advanced kids, "Kids who are that advanced need to have courses taught after school, or they need to go to private school. Public school teachers need to focus on raising the scores of the lower students."
I felt like throwing up. I completely disagree. What NCLB has done to the advanced learner is a crime much greater than what has been "done" to students of low skill. We are told to focus on raising particular scores. It gets down to data, like, Johnny B. needs to gain two points on his MCAS so he will show improvement. Therefore, top students are left to flail on their own, since we can count on their scores to be high.
This is a good insight for you to have as a teacher. I was a california public school student just as some changes were being made in the 90s, and I remember spending a large amount of class time preparing, specifically, in the 4th grade, for a standardized test- I think it was the CTBS test. We even had to learn what kind of answers the test was looking for, and it was incredibly pointless and frustrating.
What was wierd about junior high for me was that it seemed I was really good at things that didn't get graded. I could write a really good essay or put together a decent book report, but it seemed that I was graded on a rubrick I didn't understand. I was always being told that my work was good, but that I needed to follow instructions and pay attention to the assignment. I had one teacher, an English teacher in the 7th grade, who's assignments I NEVER understood. I would leave each class asking myself what the assignments were about, and I would go home lost every day. Its not that I was way smarter than anyone, but I just didn't have the focus to allow me to look at an assignment and say: ok, circle the adverbs. I would just do the thing as quickly as humanly possible and never care what the grades were when they were returned. Then the writing assignments were my bread and butter, but again, I was trying to write interestingly, and the teacher was trying to show me how to properly parse my sentences. I still have parsing issues.
Over the long haul, the student with some intellectual interest wins out and goes to college, but without the tools he or she needs to really get down to the interesting material without distraction. I am still quite appalled by certain papers I read, written by music classmates who are brilliant people. Their writing just doesn't work, on a technical level; and I always stop myself and ask how it is possible that 21 year old student could write in the school newspaper:
"The problems of the recording industry can be translated to the way students download music on their computers instead of buying them."
This is a sentence that appeared in our paper. It reads like a foreign language translation, or a computerized thesaurus exercise...
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:From my perspective, it looked more like you were telling everybody that their opinions were wrong, because you said so. That is something that I find dense and abrasive.
What I don't get is that much of this thread consisted of people stating that others' opinions were wrong: the teacher, or whoever made up the assignment, to start with.
I've always been amazed that the person who first posts an opinion gets a free ride. If person X posts an opinion, "This is stupid/a waste of time/whatever," he has made a bald statement asserting that opinion.
When person Y posts "This is not stupid" in response, person y is often held to a higher standard of discourse. Demands are made for the reasons - when no reasons for the opposite opinion have been posted. Or someone claims that person Y is just telling someone they are wrong.
in this thread, a lot of people posted a lot of opinions. Many of those opinions clashed. Had many of the negative opinions been told to the person who designed the program, many would consider them abrasive. Yet, when someone doesn't even state the opposite opinion, but rather simply says "You all need to know more to form a proper opinion about this," he's labeled abrasive.
I truly don't get this attitude. Again, it seems like the first person to post on a topic gets a free pass from a lot of social rules people attempt to impose on others.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: And here I was planning on doing my sanding with Bob.
HA!!
quote: Of course, I'm inclined to cut Bob a little slack right now if something he says doesn't come across as polite as he usually seems to try for, since he has a newborn living at his house.
Oh, that's right, eh? Sleep is probably scarce around the Casa di Scopatz. I forgot about that.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I've always been amazed that the person who first posts an opinion gets a free ride. If person X posts an opinion, "This is stupid/a waste of time/whatever," he has made a bald statement asserting that opinion.
When person Y posts "This is not stupid" in response, person y is often held to a higher standard of discourse. Demands are made for the reasons - when no reasons for the opposite opinion have been posted. Or someone claims that person Y is just telling someone they are wrong.
in this thread, a lot of people posted a lot of opinions. Many of those opinions clashed. Had many of the negative opinions been told to the person who designed the program, many would consider them abrasive. Yet, when someone doesn't even state the opposite opinion, but rather simply says "You all need to know more to form a proper opinion about this," he's labeled abrasive.
I truly don't get this attitude. Again, it seems like the first person to post on a topic gets a free pass from a lot of social rules people attempt to impose on others.
I think that's an oversimplification.
The originator of the topic presents a particular set of facts on a particular situation and their judgement on the situation. It goes without saying- or it ought to- that those who agree with that judgement do so on the basis of the information presented, and recognizing that perhaps not all information available about the situation has been given, nor is it necessarily possible that all information on the situation has been given.
When someone else refutes that statement based on their own assumptions, without further information on the specific situation, it is entirely reasonable that their point not be given equal weight.
Now, I don't think Bob's point is unreasonable, and he certainly has every right to broach the possibility that there might be more to the given situation than meets the eye. However, he does so on the basis of his own perspective, which apparently includes a greater faith in the good intentions of the academic bureaucracy in question, and not based on the information given.
Further, the originator of the topic clearly created it in a desire to vent about the unfairness and unreasonableness of the situation. Thus it behooves the polite to broach their alternate views of the situation with some tact, as being seen to dismiss an unfairness out of hand and to contradict the originator's story based solely on personal opinion can easily be seen as merely being contrary and rude.
And just to make myself clear, I'm not saying you are being contrary and rude, Bob, though I think perhaps all sides are getting a bit more heated than is entirely necessary.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:One describes the person that you are and makes a judgment on your inherent being (Bob's Bobness). The other describes how you said something, which may or may not have anything to do with your inherent being.
To me, that sounds like describing the difference between looking blue and being blue.
If you look blue, you're blue. There's no innate "blueness" distinguishable from appearing blue.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: To me, that sounds like describing the difference between looking blue and being blue.
If you look blue, you're blue. There's no innate "blueness" distinguishable from appearing blue.
I was kind of thinking the same thing, but this says it better. Is it that people are more likely to take offense at "you are a fool" than "your opinion is foolish"?
Elizabeth, your posts have been fascinating.
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
On the original topic, I like that this assignment is very open-ended. The connections the kids can draw is automatically tailored to what most interests them. A student who's an advanced reader will hopefully draw much different connections than one who is struggling. In that way it's great, as Elizabeth pointed out, for the teacher to get an idea of the students level. Compare this assignment with a simple response worksheet, for example. Cookie-cutter questions like "where and when does this story take place," will probably elicit identical responses.
But really, every page? I don't think I'd get past page 20. What about every chapter, or every 5 pages?
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Orincoro, I was a student in the same system at the same time, and I remember the CTBS test-- but none of my teachers spent more than two days of the year "teaching to" the test, and that was just going over what was going to happen on the test, mostly.
Incidentally, we were in the top 5% of schools, CTBS scores-wise.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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