posted
On Thursday my class visited the organization Norwegian Church Aid to hear about their projects in the Middle East. There they showed us a documentary called The Iron Wall produced by the Palestinian organizations Palestinian Agricultural Relief Commitee and Palestinians for Peace and Democracy, detailing the Israeli policy of settling the occupied palestinian territories. I thought it was very interesting, and while searching for some place to order it I found this site where you can see the whole thing for free. I recommend it to all who are interested in learning more about the conflict. It's 50 minutes long, but it's a very good presentation of Israel's apartheid policies with interviews with Human Rights activists on both sides of the conflict, as well as Palestinian farmers, Jewish settlers, ex-soldiers, and an Israeli journalist, and some others that I can't remember at the moment.
The thing that shocked me the most in the film, though I'd heard of it before, was the government sanctioned violence by fundamentalist Jews against the citizens of the Palestinian city of Hebron. It just goes to show that the Israeli government is as much run by fundamentalists as their Palestinian counterparts (if you can call them that).
Edit: Oops, bad link.
[ December 09, 2006, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: St. Yogi ]
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posted
I try to stay out of this kind of discussion. Like the situation itself, I don't think anyone comes out smelling rosy.
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posted
I agree, but there is one of the sides in this conflict that I feel is the worst. What is weird is that most Americans are blind to the atrocities committed by Israel.
I wonder why that is? All the human rights activists that I know who have been down there, christian and atheist alike, condemn the Israeli occupation, and feel that Israel is the bad guy in this conflict. But for some reason the American public and the American government seem wholly on the side of Israel.
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posted
I really don't want to get involved in this debate, especially when their are more knowledgeable and involved people on this forum that I'm sure will be arriving to rebut you any second *checks over shoulder*, but umbrella statements like that fail to capture any reasonable semblance of the realities of this conflict.
Describing it as an atrocious Israeli ‘occupation’ of a sovereign Palestine completely ignores the reality of the situation, and the legitimate motivations behind Israel's actions. The debate isn't "Why doesn't the American public condemn Israel's actions?" It's "Are Israel's actions justifiable in the face of the overwhelming threat they face from Palestine and surrounding Arab countries?”
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quote:Originally posted by St. Yogi: I wonder why that is? All the human rights activists that I know who have been down there, christian and atheist alike, condemn the Israeli occupation, and feel that Israel is the bad guy in this conflict.
To be honest, this is at least a part of why I support Israel. While at times, neither side comes off particularly great, I feel that Israel seems to get a disproportionate share of the blame internationally. So at least at some level, I feel that if we don't stick up for Israel, who will?
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quote: Describing it as an atrocious Israeli ‘occupation’ of a sovereign Palestine completely ignores the reality of the situation, and the legitimate motivations behind Israel's actions. The debate isn't "Why doesn't the American public condemn Israel's actions?" It's "Are Israel's actions justifiable in the face of the overwhelming threat they face from Palestine and surrounding Arab countries?”
*blink* Overwhelming threat from Palestine? From the surrounding Arab countries, maybe, but not from Palestine. Some Palestinians, yes, but not from the Palestinian population, or its "government".
My answer to your question would be a resounding no. Their actions are absolutely not justifiable. If the actions of the Israeli government was for the protection of its citizens and its land, then I could agree with what they are doing, but as Dr. Jeff Halper says in the film, the settlements, the wall, the highway system, the uprooting of olive trees, and the demolition of houses, can't be explained by security.
If someone can explain to me the settlement policy of Israel in terms of security, I would be very very happy, because then, at least, I could understand a bit more why they do it. But the way it seems to me, is that they are only trying to annex more land.
It is an atrocious occupation.
Let's take the Palestinian city of Hebron as an example. In this city there lives something like 150,000 Palestinians and 400 Jewish settlers, as well as about 1,500 Israeli soldiers stationed there to protect the settlers. The Palestinians can not move freely around in their own city. Aside from checkpoints they have to go through to move from place to place, they are also almost every day of the year put under a curfew, which means that only jews can walk in the street.
Some people that I talked to from the Norwegian Church Aid who had been a part of the Ecumenical Accompaniment Program in Palestine and Israel, and they told me that one of their tasks during a day would be to accompany schoolchildren in Hebron to try to protect them from harassment from Jewish settlers. Everyday they would meet settlers, "civilians", walking freely around with submachineguns in the street. These kids were afraid to go to school because of the settlers and the soldiers.
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May I point your attention to some blog posts made by the Secretary General of Amnesty International who at this moment is visiting Israel and the occupied territories:
posted
If you're really interested in education (as this was a class exercise), I hope your teacher is assigning a book such as The Case For Israel.
The site you linked is inherently propagandistic, as is the documentary. That's not inherently bad, but it does mean that fact selection and presentation has been conducted in such a way as to enhance a message.
If the class is about education, it would behoove you to be exposed to some additional points of view on the subject.
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posted
The site I linked actually has nothing to do with the documentary. That's just where I happened to find it now. The documentary might seem biased, and I agree that I react to some of the language used, but the interviews, the footage from Hebron, that is the important part.
Also, as I said, the people I've talked to, people who have every reason to be unbiased in this issue, all agree that Israel is the responisble part in this conflict. They are the ones purporting themselves as the only democracy in the Middle East.
I urge you all to watch the interview with the Israeli ex-soldier, and listen to how he describes their duty in Hebron.
I'm here to learn. I'm here to discuss. If someone can justify the Israeli occupation for me, that would be very nice.
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posted
Why does the US support Israel? Because they are a friendly state in the middle of an unfriendly area that happens to supply us with a ton of oil. The US needs to have an ally there of some sort. The fact that Britain and the US set Israel up to begin with also falls into that. As does the large number of Jews in the United States.
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quote:If the class is about education, it would behoove you to be exposed to some additional points of view on the subject.
This is basically what I'm trying to do here at Hatrack. I'm trying to make people see a different point of view. Trying to make people understand why the Palestinians are so angry, why people like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu call the Israeli treatment of Palestinians for apartheid, why human rights organizations like Amnesty International condemn the occupation of Palestine.
Instead people tell me that I'm not seeing the whole picture. Ok, then try to show me more of the picture. Instead of telling me that I'm wrong, tell me why I'm wrong.
Why don't people engage me in the issue, and try to make me see it in a different way, instead of ignoring me and hoping that I go away?
Edit: From looking in a certain gossip thread on the "japanese wine river" forum, I know that there are some people who have decided not to post here because they think I'm just trolling or something. I'm not. I'm seriously interested in discussing this. I want to hear a different point of view. I have nothing against jews or Israelis, but as long as I know that there are millions of Palestinians suffering under Israeli oppression every day, I have to speak up and try to inform others about the things that Israel does, because it's painfully obvious to me that most Americans do not know about these things, or prefer not to know about it.
[ December 11, 2006, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: St. Yogi ]
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quote:because it's painfully obvious to me that most Americans do not know about these things, or prefer not to know about it
This attitude - evident from the first post - is why I don't intend to discuss the issue with you in greater detail. The assumption that others would agree with you if only they knew what you knew - therefore it's painfully obvious that they don't know what you know - is not conducive to discussion.
I've suggested a source to you that will provide more of the picture. If you "want to hear a different point of view," this thread has given you a way to do so.
Instead, you admit that your intention is to "make" people see a different point of view - without any grasp of what the different points of view are here - and that it's obvious we haven't been educated.
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I agree with you that attitudes of American and Europeans are considerably different regarding Israel/Palestine. I was very surprised once I started seeking out more global opinions on the subject. But it is a very complicated subject with a lot of factors at play.
I am interested in reading former President Carter's new book.
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posted
St. Yogi, I think the reason many people are staying away from this discussion is largely because discussions on this topic in the past have largely just turned into fights (more or less) There are too many people on either side that are personally tied to the conflict and feel very strongly on an emotional level.
Additionally, while I agree that the public in general is almost certainly not fully informed on the issue (as in the case of any issue) I think many/most on this board in particular have at least some knowledge of offenses on both sides of the conflict.
This really comes down to "who's grudge is more valid" and "which side is using more abhorrant tactics" and "which side is showing more restraint."
and since it's all subjective, and as I mentioned, quite emotional for most people, the discussions tend to be rather heated and uncomfortable for most.
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posted
Yogi, While I think that much of what you say has some merit and that many of responses you've gotten have been unreasonable and, from my perspective of their perspective, counter-productive, I'm leery of anyone who appears to be placing blame almost entirely on one side of that conflict (e.g. by calling them the "bad guy" of the conflict).
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quote:Yogi, While I think that much of what you say has some merit and that many of responses you've gotten have been unreasonable and, from my perspective of their perspective, counter-productive, I'm leery of anyone who appears to be placing blame almost entirely on one side of that conflict (e.g. by calling them the "bad guy" of the conflict).
Hmm, I guess I can appreciate that, and in most conflicts I would agree with you. There are bad guys on both sides in this conflict, but the difference is that the "bad guys" on the Israeli side control the world's fourth or fifth largest military power, with the full support of the world's largest economic and military power. The "bad guys" on the Palestinian side control what exactly? Also, do you think Hamas would have been elected if not for the increasingly strong restrictions put on the Palestinians by Israel? Do you think the extremists on the Palestinian side would have as much support? The Palestinian "bad guys" are only fueled by the abuse heaped on the population of the occupied territories by the Israeli government.
But then, of course, you might say that the Israeli population would not allow the Israeli extremists to control the government if it weren't for the actions of the extremists in Palestine, but it seems to me that the fear they feel of terrorist attacks, though justified, is much less than the one the people of Palestine feel every single day of their life, living under the Israeli occupation. It seems to me that the civilian population of Israel live quite comfortable lives in their first world existence, compared to the third world hell-hole their Palestinian counterparts live in just hundred meters or a couple of kilometers away.
There are not two equal sides in this conflict.
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posted
Yogi, The Palestinians are very much the bad guys here, even independent of the Israeli situation. There have been waves of savage fighting between Palestinian groups that has nothing to do with Israel. In the news today was a story about a political opponent of Hamas being attacked in Palestine. People set on him with automatic weapons, and, according to the report I heard, seemed to turn their fire on his kids, killing all three of them.
In the Israeli situation, what do the Palestinians (and their sometimes allies) control? Bombs and missles and automatic weapons. Which they use to kill Israelis, often indiscriminately or specifically targeting innocents such as children. You don't get to be the good guys when you do things like that. I'm more than a little disturbed that you would so casually glaze over things like this. It makes me thing that maybe people's reactions to you were not so out of line after all.
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posted
Some, not all Palestinians are very much the bad guys. I think a lot of the reactions of the Israelis are doing nothing to solve the situation, but at the same time, most of the time it's either that, or do nothing and let the violent minority of Palestinians pick them off unhindered. So I can't really blame them all that much. They don't always need to be so heavyhanded, but what do the Palestinians really expect when their celebrated insurgents engineer attacks on Israelis?
The situation needs a third party. I think that either Israel and Palestine CAN'T solve it by themselves, or that it will take so long for them to do it, that the price is too high, for both sides.
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quote:Originally posted by St. Yogi: It's 50 minutes long, but it's a very good presentation of Israel's apartheid policies
You're a bit of a nut, right? People like you call it apartheid when Israel sets up checkpoints to prevent the Palestinians from blowing up schoolbuses and crowded markets.
They commit one atrocity after another, pride themselves on having invented suicide bombing as a political technique, and you talk about Israel, which has tried time and again to reconcile with these death-worshippers, as though they're in the wrong. It's sick, Yogi. Fundamentally ill.
quote:Originally posted by St. Yogi: The thing that shocked me the most in the film, though I'd heard of it before, was the government sanctioned violence by fundamentalist Jews against the citizens of the Palestinian city of Hebron. It just goes to show that the Israeli government is as much run by fundamentalists as their Palestinian counterparts (if you can call them that).
Can I help you adjust the buckles on your jacket? They must be hard to reach, being behind you and all.
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quote:Originally posted by St. Yogi: I agree, but there is one of the sides in this conflict that I feel is the worst. What is weird is that most Americans are blind to the atrocities committed by Israel.
Must be the dust in our eyes from the bombs the Palestinians have set off in pizza shops and discos.
quote:Originally posted by St. Yogi: I wonder why that is? All the human rights activists that I know who have been down there, christian and atheist alike, condemn the Israeli occupation, and feel that Israel is the bad guy in this conflict. But for some reason the American public and the American government seem wholly on the side of Israel.
Propagandistic twaddle. In the first place, the American government is on the side of no one but the American government. But it doesn't take a whole lot of thought to conclude that monsters who target civilians are the bad guys, and a country which has made far too many attempts to reach a middle ground with the death-cultists is pretty obviously on the side of the angels.
If "all the human rights activists" you've met say that Israel is in the wrong, then you need to get out more and meet people with better judgement.
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quote: Describing it as an atrocious Israeli ‘occupation’ of a sovereign Palestine completely ignores the reality of the situation, and the legitimate motivations behind Israel's actions. The debate isn't "Why doesn't the American public condemn Israel's actions?" It's "Are Israel's actions justifiable in the face of the overwhelming threat they face from Palestine and surrounding Arab countries?”
*blink* Overwhelming threat from Palestine? From the surrounding Arab countries, maybe, but not from Palestine. Some Palestinians, yes, but not from the Palestinian population, or its "government".
The Palestinians have been shelling Israeli cities ever since Israel gave them Gaza. They continue it to this day. It's sponsored and encouraged by the Palestinian leadership, which continues to call for genocide against Israel.
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I agree with you that attitudes of American and Europeans are considerably different regarding Israel/Palestine. I was very surprised once I started seeking out more global opinions on the subject. But it is a very complicated subject with a lot of factors at play.
I am interested in reading former President Carter's new book.
quote:Yogi, The Palestinians are very much the bad guys here, even independent of the Israeli situation. There have been waves of savage fighting between Palestinian groups that has nothing to do with Israel. In the news today was a story about a political opponent of Hamas being attacked in Palestine. People set on him with automatic weapons, and, according to the report I heard, seemed to turn their fire on his kids, killing all three of them.
In the Israeli situation, what do the Palestinians (and their sometimes allies) control? Bombs and missles and automatic weapons. Which they use to kill Israelis, often indiscriminately or specifically targeting innocents such as children. You don't get to be the good guys when you do things like that. I'm more than a little disturbed that you would so casually glaze over things like this. It makes me thing that maybe people's reactions to you were not so out of line after all.
As has been pointed out not all Palestinians are bad guys. Some. I heard about the attack you speak of, and the children who were killed, and it's a tragedy, but I don't think you can take that as proof that the Palestinians as a whole are bad guys.
And it seems to me that Americans are casually glazing over the actions of Israel as beeing necessary for security. I'm just not buying it. Most of Israel's actions go above anything that can be justified by security concerns.
And of course there are some on the Palestinian side who are just as bad, and they're gaining support every single day because of the oppression of Israel.
I do not condone the violence of the Palestinian terrorists, but I see it as an unavoidable reaction in the face of oppression. I don't understand how we can expect an oppressed population to swear off violence and lay down their guns, when they are faced with the violence of Israelis daily. When in the entire history of the world have we seen that an oppressed people has decided to not fight back. An example might be Gandhi's India, but even in those days there was violence. I don't think we can expect Gandhi-like behavior from anyone, least of all the most beaten down. Hope for, yes, but not expect.
There will always be extremists on both sides. The difference is that the Palestinians have no way of stopping theirs. They don't have a functioning society with military to keep the peace. Even if the government wanted, there will always be an extremist somewhere hiding in a bush, shooting rockets into Israel.
The Israeli violence, on the other hand, is under political control, and it takes only an order from the government to end the violence.
quote:The Palestinians have been shelling Israeli cities ever since Israel gave them Gaza. They continue it to this day. It's sponsored and encouraged by the Palestinian leadership, which continues to call for genocide against Israel.
I haven't heard the Palestinian government call for the genocide of Israel, do you have a link? And as I said previously, Hamas would never have been elected if not for the desperation of the Palestinian population.
quote:
quote: quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: St. Yogi,
I agree with you that attitudes of American and Europeans are considerably different regarding Israel/Palestine. I was very surprised once I started seeking out more global opinions on the subject. But it is a very complicated subject with a lot of factors at play.
I am interested in reading former President Carter's new book.
You should read this review before you do.
quote:His bias against Israel shows by his selection of the book's title: "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid." The suggestion that without peace Israel is an apartheid state analogous to South Africa is simply wrong.
When did anyone suggest any such thing? It's not the non-peace that makes it apartheid. It's the fact that there are roads which only jews are allowed to use, the fact that Palestinians need to ask Israel for permits to move from one place on their land to another, the fact that Palestinians have to ask permission from Israel to build anything on their own land, something which has not been granted by Israel since the start of the occupation in 1967, meaning that they can demolish any house built in the forty years since then. It's the fact that the Palestinians live in ghettos and villages behind a wall, while they can look up on the hill only half a kilometer away and see nice apartment buildings built on their land where Israelis live comfortably. It's the fact that Israel has built its wall so that it specifically separates Palestinians from their farmlands, so that in the future the Israelis might expand their settlements. It's the fact that 150,000 people living in Hebron are put under a curfew because 400 fundamentalist jews have decided they want to live there. It's the fact that these same fundamentalist jews can walk around in the street with automatic weapons, menacing the arab population, while the soldiers just stand and watch, or join in. It's the fact that some Palestinians have to get up at four in the morning to go stand in line at the check-point in hopes that they will be allowed through so they can get to work at 7 or 8, and the fact that the Palestinians never know if they will be allowed to pass through to go to work or school. And yet they are expected to be complacent, and not complain.
There are millions of Palestinians living under constant control of Israel, without being able to have their views heard.
Last month I spent three weeks in South Africa, and there I met with a black South African. He was the leader of YMCA in one of the poor townships outside of Pretoria and he grew up under apartheid. He spent six months in the occupied territories and could tell us that the pressure on the Palestinians is even worse than what they experienced in South Africa. Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela also call it apartheid. What reason would these people have to lie? Anti-semitism?
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posted
Yogi, the problem is that even if things are absolutely as stark as you are claiming they are (though it's pretty clear that there's a decent amount of spin in your statements), it in no way justifies terrorism against civilian targets as exhibited by Palestinian insurgants.
Basically even if I keep standing here spitting in your eye, when you respond by shooting me in the leg it's not a clear cut division of who's at fault.
Even if I've been spitting in your eye with no reason behind it and no other provocation (which I think is highly suspect at best in the case of Israel) the vast escalation in response is a huge problem
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quote: ElJay wrote: What makes you think he's an alt, rivka?
Only posts on one or two topics; starts deliberately inflammatory threads, and then disappears into the woodwork for months; rinse, repeat.
*sigh* Whatever you think, I'm not a troll. I'm a lurker by nature, as I said when I joined this forum. I'm more of a listener than a speaker. But when there's something that I feel so strongly about, I have to speak up about it. And when I feel that the members of Hatrack and the American public in general are misinformed or biased about this subject the need to speak up is even more pressing.
If my posts seem inflammatory, I assure you that was not my intention, and I apologize if it came off that way. My intention was to foster debate about this subject, but my language might have been so influenced by my strong feelings about the matter that I scared people away from the discussion, though it doesn't seem like I said anything more controversial than what President Carter has written in his new book.
Also, I can't think of a single other thread that I've started about a controversial issue. If so I must have posted and promptly forgotten about it. In fact, I can count on my hands the number of times I've entered a political discussion on Hatrack. This is the only time I've actually tried to generate such discussion, though I seem to have failed miserably.
The Pixiest replied:
quote:Yogi: It incites hatred toward a certain people.
And that's all I plan to say about it on this forum. If you want to get into a knockdown drag out argument that ends with a locked thread and hurt feelings, and possibly name calling, I'd be happy to oblige you on Hatrack.
That is not what I want, and I'm kind of offended that you would imply such a thing. I have not called anybody any names, nor have I tried to hurt anyone's feelings. Yes, I have strong feelings about this subject, and this might color my language, but that does not make me a troll.
quote: Yogi, the problem is that even if things are absolutely as stark as you are claiming they are (though it's pretty clear that there's a decent amount of spin in your statements), it in no way justifies terrorism against civilian targets as exhibited by Palestinian insurgants.
Basically even if I keep standing here spitting in your eye, when you respond by shooting me in the leg it's not a clear cut division of who's at fault.
Even if I've been spitting in your eye with no reason behind it and no other provocation (which I think is highly suspect at best in the case of Israel) the vast escalation in response is a huge problem
During this thread I have posted again and again about the fact that there are Palestinians who do bad things as well. I have tried to show the difference between the Israeli and the Palestinian violence, though that seems to have been met with little understanding. I have listed a number of things that Israel does to the Palestinian people.
Yet no one has tried to refute the things that I have posted with facts of any kind. All I get is vague things like "Oh, you're not seeing the whole picture," and "It's not clear-cut who is at fault," and insinuations that I belong in a mental institution.
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