posted
I have known several people who used hyphenated last names to still be who they were before they were married, in a professional sense, and also take their husband's last name. Or because the mother did not have the same last name as the father for whatever reason and they wanted the children to have both names for both parents.
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I think that people want to both hold on to their own identity and link that identity to their spouses. It is useful for people with professional reputations under one name, and family connections under another. For example: someone who has published under an unmarried name of "Smith", is married to someone named "Jones" and has children named "Jones". Makes sense to use both names.
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For some people "unwieldy" is less of a consideration than identity. Call them whatever they want to be called.
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I wouldn't reccomend calling anyone by initials or leaving out sylables of their name unless that is what they want. Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The problem, though, is that it's kind of awkward to ask them how they would like their name pronounced, wouldn't you think? I was kind of hoping there was some kind of SOP where only the first bit was used. Or something.
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From the very few people I've known with hyphenated last names, it's been acceptable to call them by just the first one.
I usually introduced them with both. I figured if it was important enough to them to deal with all the crap they must deal with to get both names on everything important, the least I could do was remember them both.
And, since I go by both my first and middle name, I empathize.
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A friend of mine's father died when he was still a baby. A priest fell in love with his mother, gave up the cloth, married her, and raised my friend as his own son. My friend later changed his original last name and ADDED his adopted father's name, hyphenating the two. This was a great way to honor both men.
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I think the SOP is to pronounce the name as best you can in accordance with how it is presented to you. So, for example, if reading "Mrs. Pffaflin-Heideggerjones" from a list, I would try to pronounce "Mrs. Pffaflin-Heideggerjones" as best I could (without abbreviating it or shortening it) and rely on the individual to correct me as she saw fit, if appropriate. She might say, "It's 'paff-lin-high-digger-jones,' but you can call me 'Kate,'" or something else, or nothing. You just work with what you get.
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Edited to add: You are always presented with someone else's name, either on a document (e.g., list of attendees, nametag that the person is wearing, or what have you) or verbally (e.g., as in an introduction or by the person in question offering his/her own name). Whatever name was used at the initial presentation was deemed appropriate, at least for an initial presentation, and it is appropriate to continue using that name unless you are presented with good reason to do otherwise.
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My daughter's last name is hyphenated, because it's made up of my last name and my partner's last name. How else would we do it? I mean, I know people who've adopted a common name (and that's what taking the husband's name is, too), but both my partner and I have fought hard to establish who we are, and neither one of us wanted to give up our names.
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I think you're supposed to call Mr. Jones-Smith "Jones-Smith." It does get clunky after a while, especially with names like Gmytrasiewicz-Kuropatwinski.
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Lisa, I respect that. However, it seems like that rather than have two separate names which keep both of your identities there, you have one big, long convoluted last name that is for all practical a different last name.
I don't know. Is this a touchy subject? I apologize if it is. I mean no offense.
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I think of it as a small courtesy from my perspective, but one that may be quite important from the perspective of the other person. No matter (to me) why it is important to that person -- what matters is that it is (or even just may be) important to the other.
It's only a matter of a few syllables and a few seconds to me, but the symbolism behind those syllables and seconds may have great meaning to another. In the context, the choice is easy for me.
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Well, I have no problem in doing it, of course. I just feel kind of awkward about the whole subject.
I guess my main question would be, if the last name is almost certainly going to be mangled by me, is it better that I try first and then ask, or ask first?
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It's not touchy. Look, it happens that we both have short last names. Mine is Liel (two syllables), and hers is Hope (one syllable). So Hope-Liel isn't that long of a name. My last name used to be Aaronson (8 letters-3 syllables), and hers used to be 7 letters and 2 syllables. If we still had those names, Tova's last name would be really long. But then, if we hadn't adopted new last names before we met, maybe we would have chosen a common name together. Who knows?
The only thing that happens sometimes is that people think Hope is Tova's middle name.
She has a schoolmate whose last name is Altgold. And yes, the girl's parents are surnamed Alt and Gold, respectively. There are all sorts of ways to do it nowadays.
I have a friend from summer camp who agreed with her husband that the boys would take his last name and the girls would take hers. One day, she got two calls in a row from the doctor's office with reminders to make appointments for the kids. They didn't realize that the children were siblings. I don't think I'd want to do it that way, but I guess it works for them.
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I think (and this is just a guess on my part) that an honest attempt to say it all and attempt to do it correctly is most often appreciated. It seems to be a nod of deference to the other person's personal choice, as it conforms to the initial presentation while giving the other person the opportunity to clarify his or her wishes as he or she desires.
That is, it's a subtle way of saying "I will call you what you wish to be called instead of what is easiest for me." That strikes me as a politeness.
I'm more than willing to be corrected on this perspective, by the way.
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I took my hubby's name because I felt it was important for both of us (and any children that come along) to have the same last name and he wasn't going to give up his, even though it sucks. One name shows unity. That We Are A Family. That's more important to me than holding on to my dad's family name.
First generation of hyphenated names isn't that bad when you're name is Smith-Jones... but the next generation will be Smith-Jones-Johnson-Chen, and the next generation starts to get really really unweildy.
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You should try to say the whole thing. Not only is it polite to call people what they want to be called (as ClaudiaTherese says) but it can be particularly insulting to do otherwise with hyphenated names.
People generally have hyphenated names because it's important to them to be known by both. Through arbitrarily shortening to one or the other you are saying that that part isn't important.
My wife and I have different last names so we hyphenated my son's last name. As uncommon as this seems in the US it's very common is some countries (I know lot of people from Argentina and they don't change their names). I don't think that we are less of a family/couple etc because of this, but then we cut the whole "beat with one heart"/"be of the same cup" thing out of our wedding - we prefer to think that our hearts beat together and that we drink from the same cup but that we are still our own people.
Anyway, should someone arbitrarily decide to drop one half of my son's last name I personally woudn't let it bother me too much but it's still mildly insulting... and my wife would probably be more hurt should it be her name that was dropped. We named him the way we did because he is a product of our union and to remove part of that takes away from that idea.
But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I took my hubby's name because I felt it was important for both of us (and any children that come along) to have the same last name and he wasn't going to give up his, even though it sucks. One name shows unity. That We Are A Family. That's more important to me than holding on to my dad's family name.
First generation of hyphenated names isn't that bad when you're name is Smith-Jones... but the next generation will be Smith-Jones-Johnson-Chen, and the next generation starts to get really really unweildy.
I had not even considered that! Wow.
quote: It's not touchy. Look, it happens that we both have short last names. Mine is Liel (two syllables), and hers is Hope (one syllable). So Hope-Liel isn't that long of a name. My last name used to be Aaronson (8 letters-3 syllables), and hers used to be 7 letters and 2 syllables. If we still had those names, Tova's last name would be really long. But then, if we hadn't adopted new last names before we met, maybe we would have chosen a common name together. Who knows?
The only thing that happens sometimes is that people think Hope is Tova's middle name.
She has a schoolmate whose last name is Altgold. And yes, the girl's parents are surnamed Alt and Gold, respectively. There are all sorts of ways to do it nowadays.
I have a friend from summer camp who agreed with her husband that the boys would take his last name and the girls would take hers. One day, she got two calls in a row from the doctor's office with reminders to make appointments for the kids. They didn't realize that the children were siblings. I don't think I'd want to do it that way, but I guess it works for them.
I actually haven't had to actually address someone with a hyphenated last name in 'real life', yet, and had never really given it much thought. That's why I made this thread, because it seemed kind of interesting to me in a lot of different respects.
Names are important, and to me personally, it seemed interesting to combine two names in such a fashion. But I can definitely understand why a person would want to keep their last name with, one would assume, its own rich tradition.
What do you think of Pixiest's point? If your method of last name started to catch on, what would be the best way to add two hyphenated names together, if at all?
On the other hand, I know many women look forward to changing their names because they hate them, or just because it's part of the whole marriage fantasy.
As a kind of confirmed bachelor guy, it's not something that I've ever really thought about and, in any case, I guess the central question is the one I put to CT.
quote: I think (and this is just a guess on my part) that an honest attempt to say it all and attempt to do it correctly is most often appreciated. It seems to be a nod of deference to the other person's personal choice, as it conforms to the initial presentation while giving the other person the opportunity to clarify his or her wishes as he or she desires.
That is, it's a subtle way of saying "I will call you what you wish to be called instead of what is easiest for me." That strikes me as a politeness.
I'm more than willing to be corrected on this perspective, by the way.
People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
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posted
I will never hyphenate my last name - Pilkington is simply too long to tack anything else on to it.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Lisa: Why not create a composite name like AltGold but omit some of the letters to make it fit better.
Hopiel sounds kinda pleasant to my ears.
I think Algold sounds betters then Altgold.
You don't have an ear for Jewish names. Trust me, with a name like Altgold, I never would have known it was a composite name. Algold would have made me go "huh?"
Anyway, I picked Liel for numerous reasons. I like it. It suits me. Hope-Liel keeps both of our names intact. I wouldn't be averse to having all three of us use Hope-Liel, but it doesn't seem necessary.
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My cousin hyphenated her last name, and gave her kids the hyphenated last name. However, in most of their personal correspondence, at church (she's the minister's wife), and on school forms and such, the kids (and often she as well) will usually go by the husband's last name only. (She has a long last name and the husband's is middle-length.) So I'm not quite sure why she did that, other than she started it with the first kid and now wants them all to match...
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posted
My wife wanted to keep her last name, since she regards it as a connection to her cultural heritage, and feels regret that the name will most likely end with her (she has no siblings, and her uncles are unlikely at this point to get married or have kids). She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name. It does not solve the problem of continuing past her life, but she still is satisfied in keeping her old name involved.
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
Sure, you may get it wrong, but if it's hard to pronounce, you wouldn't be the first.
In contrast, if you call someone by a name other than the one you were presented with (see above), it seems like it isn't a good faith effort from the beginning.
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Edited to add:
I think just_me's analogy to calling someone introduced as "Robert" by "Rob" or "Bob" is a quite apt one.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: My wife wanted to keep her last name, since she regards it as a connection to her cultural heritage, and feels regret that the name will most likely end with her (she has no siblings, and her uncles are unlikely at this point to get married or have kids). She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name. It does not solve the problem of continuing past her life, but she still is satisfied in keeping her old name involved.
Interesting.
I have to admit, I do feel sorry for the ladies. I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
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quote:She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name.
I took my maiden name as my middle name when I got married. My birth middle name was my mom's last name (she didn't change to my dad's, at all.) My mom's last and my married last start with the same letter. I didn't like the alliteration, and felt if I was going to have a last for a middle name, it might as well be my maiden. So my initials went from AHL to ALH.
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Nope, I am not aware of any Jews in my ancestry either, so I suppose its not in my blood to hear good Jewish names.
But then again, I am not 100% sure how I feel about naming people at all. On one hand I think its moderately ridiculous that people draw from a pool of names that change by the decade with few lasting more then a century. But on the other my wife is all about creating new names for our children to have and every name she comes up with scares me.
I will probably accept the system like a coward.
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quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
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quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
Huh? Is there a problem with husbands taking their wives' last name?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
Sure, you may get it wrong, but if it's hard to pronounce, you wouldn't be the first.
In contrast, if you call someone by a name other than the one you were presented with (see above), it seems like it isn't a good faith effort from the beginning.
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Edited to add:
I think just_me's analogy to calling someone introduced as "Robert" by "Rob" or "Bob" is a quite apt one.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
Oh, if I were introduced to someone as such and such, I wouldn't presume. I was speaking more of when you have to try and pronounce someone's name after seeing it written down but before you hear it pronounced. The whole bit about chopping one part off was a little tongue in cheek on my part.
At this point, my dilemma is really ask first, or mangle it first and let them correct?
I've been leaning towards the asking first, but from the responses on this thread, maybe I should just soldier on and give it my best shot.
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Storm, Sorry if I read you wrong here, but you've been coming off, to me, as pretty pissy for the last 10 months or so, and that's the personality I'm used to from you. I've been wondering if there's anything behind it.
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quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
Huh? Is there a problem with husbands taking their wives' last name?
A wife can change to her husband's last name (and at the same time, change her middle name or whatever) when she marries with no additional cost but the regular cost of filing marriage documents and the cost of a new SS card, but in most states a husband has to go before a judge, file complicated paperwork, and pay a fee (in CA, I think it is upward of $200) to change his name at the time of marriage, same as any other time. The man suing argues that this violates gender equality provisions or something (and I agree) and wants them to add a space to the forms for a husband to change his name like there is for a wife and make the process equal, so if he wants to change to hers, or they both want to change to a new or hyphenated name, the process is as easy for him as it would be for her.
As a result of the suit I believe legislation is already in the works.
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posted
I like you. I used to look forward to your posts and I was happy to see you posting again. Lately, you've just seemed, to me, like you've got a chip on your shoulder about something.
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posted
It's actually not too uncommon for an entire family to take the mother's maiden name in Japan. I knew a family where the husband's parents disowned them for becoming Christian so they (the couple and the child) switched to the wife's maiden name. And no one thought it all that odd.
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I have a hyphenated name. My kids just have my husband's name, which I admit was I wish was different. I don't know about the boys but when my daughter is of age I will suggest that if she wishes to add my maternomer to her name, I'd pay for it. I really prefer people to use my whole name. Few do. Further, those who do only wish to use one name almost exclusivley use my husband's, when I wish the would use mine.
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And then there's the weird Utah thing where the boy children all get the mother's maiden name as a middle name and the girls don't get a middle name. Then, when they get married their maiden name becomes their middle name.
I always thought that kind of nice and egalitarian, but I'm glad my family didn't do it or my brothers would be saddled with the middle name Fleischer.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I like you. I used to look forward to your posts and I was happy to see you posting again. Lately, you've just seemed, to me, like you've got a chip on your shoulder about something.
I do have a chip on my shoulder, but it's not something that can be resolved with people here, so I just does my best.
I'll try to be less abrasive, though. Thanks for the heads up.
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: It's actually not too uncommon for an entire family to take the mother's maiden name in Japan. I knew a family where the husband's parents disowned them for becoming Christian so they (the couple and the child) switched to the wife's maiden name. And no one thought it all that odd.
My brother took his (Japanese) wife's name in Japan, and she took his name in America.
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My brothers all have various maiden names from my mother's side for their middle names. The result is really cool: Kenton Steele, Todd Parker, and Steven Dare.
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I think I would like to give my future sons my mother's maiden name as a middle name, but not mine, I love my last name but it wouldn't make a middle name.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: My brothers all have various maiden names from my mother's side for their middle names. The result is really cool: Kenton Steele, Todd Parker, and Steven Dare.
Wow, those are awesome middle names.
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