posted
Sadly, this happened at my alma mater, and Jaclyn's old sorority [she had quit after just 1 semester] NYT articlePosts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
How did they imagine that DePauw wouldn't get pissed about this? That sort of action is what gets chapter charters revoked.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:“They had these unassuming freshman girls downstairs with these plastic women from Indiana University, and 25 of my sisters hiding upstairs,” she said. “It was so fake, so completely dehumanized. I said, ‘This calls for a little joke.’ ”
Ms. Holloway put on a wig and some John Lennon rose-colored glasses, burst through the front door and skipped around singing, “Ooooh! Delta Zeta!” and other chants.
The face of one of the national representatives, she recalled, “was like I’d run over her puppy with my car.”
posted
Who is really surprised to learn that much of the college Greek system is based on popularity and social standing?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
A girl I was in high school with was one of the members asked to leave. We kind of... rivaled each other for a few years in band, playing flute. It's an intriguing story, to say the least... exactly how obsessed with looks has our society gotten? And does a private organization like that have the right to revoke membership priveliges based on looks?
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not surprised. Saddened and disgusted. The irony in your posts is that it seems that here was an exception to that rule, and it was crushed by the national sorority.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Who is really surprised to learn that much of the college Greek system is based on popularity and social standing?
i think this an over-generalization... while what the chapter did was despicable, this does not reflect the rest of the greek community.
This like calling all republicans hypocritical, male-chauvinist, intolerant jerks just because rush limbaugh is one.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:exactly how obsessed with looks has our society gotten?
I don't think it's fair to society to judge it by the behavior of fraternities and sororities.
quote:And does a private organization like that have the right to revoke membership priveliges based on looks?
They might, but the university also has the right to revoke the ridiculous privileges it gets as a sorority.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: It represents my experience with greeks in college.
Even so... my experience with Indians in the bay area is that they are software engineers, but it would be silly to say all Indians are software engineers wouldnt it?
Were you greek in school?
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
I don't know how it is other greek systems, but at DePauw, where 70% of the student population is greek, in spite of all the stereotypes etc, people are still treated well in general.
This is why there is such an outrage about this incident... everyone agrees that this was a very poor way to handle the situation.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
My experience with fraternities, in a homogeneous college, was that it was more about what sport you were involved in. Everyone(except me and about three others) was beautiful, wealthy, intelligent, and athletic. So, it came down to football-hockey-lacrosse players(DU), soccer players-skiiers(Sig-Ep), a mix of semi-sweet bums(KDR), and the more intellectual(ChiPSi). We had no sororities. DU was banned for hanging the effigy of a woman(though they could have been banned for various other frighteningly misogynist behavior.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: My experience with fraternities, in a homogeneous college, was that it was more about what sport you were involved in. Everyone(except me and about three others) was beautiful, wealthy, intelligent, and athletic. So, it came down to football-hockey-lacrosse players(DU), soccer players-skiiers(Sig-Ep), a mix of semi-sweet bums(KDR), and the more intellectual(ChiPSi). We had no sororities. DU was banned for hanging the effigy of a woman(though they could have been banned for various other frighteningly misogynist behavior.
DU as in Delta Upsilon?
Man, that just goes to show you how different the chapters are. Every DU chapter I've heard of is filled with the semi-social nerds, geeks and dorks, and they're proud of it.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
ero, This was a couple or so of years ago... And like I said, they were booted, so maybe the dorks took over. A revolt of sorts.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's possible, but my own experience with DU chapters is four to five years old, and seemed well established then. DU has always prided themselves (on a national level, at least) on not being the stereotypical party animal fraternity, highlighting their intellectual standards for brothers, as well as their policies against hazing, secret rituals, oaths, handshakes, etc.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
So I'm not at all surprised that this happened. I'm more surprised that it is getting the attention it is. Things of this flavor were quite common among the Greek system when I was in college.
Edit to add that I'm referring to social fraternities and sororities. Honors societies are a completely different animal. Go STD! Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
DU at my school was almost all football players. Sig Ep was much more geeky. The soccer players were all Theta Zi. We had 28 fraternities at my school, and 8 sororities, at a school with a student body of 4,500, so greek life was obviously a really big part of the school. Over 50% of the school was greek(and this is a university primarily known as a major engineering school - Lehigh University). I say all this just to show that greek life isn't the same everywhere. At my school, every college cliche had his or her own fraternity or sorority to call their own. There was no group of people excluded from greek life, and most who weren't a part of it, chose not to be for their own reasons.
Of course there were still cliques, certain fraternities only hung out with certain sororities. Certain houses were friends with other houses, but despised another group of houses.
I think the behavior exhibited at this school by this sorority isn't an example of the dispicable behavior of this national organization(though it is), but really a general example of a base behavior among groups of young people, that is empowered by a system that allows these behaviors to flourish. College campuses might as well be Lord of the Flies type secluded islands.
It is deplorable that the national sorority was responsible for all this. Though from what I know about what sorority girls go through, they are infinitely more mentally abusive to eachother than anything I've ever heard of a fraternity pledge/brother going through. Not ALL sororities, but the really competitive/exclusive ones are vicious.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
posted
I think it's telling that the national office is to blame. While there's undoubtedly still structural racism, drug abuse, objectification, etc. in today's Greek culture, I find that the average chapter goes out of its way to shed stereotypes. Most college students don't want to be associated with bigotry (especially bigotry they can blame on old fogeys ), and obviously even fewer administrators would stand for it. They're far too busy getting drunk and laid.
Meanwhile, think about what kind of people run a national sorority. You have to be more than a little nostalgic for the "good old days", which included far more brazen bigotry than you could get away with today. I also imagine the top ranks of a national fraternal organization are (a) a full-time job (b) not well paid. If so, it's not just about relishing the old memories, it probably includes vicariously living out desires that they never actually achieved in their youth and subsequent careers. I'm sure my armchair psychology doesn't apply to all or even most organizations, but those Delta Zeta folks sure reek of that attitude when they micromanage local recruitment. Their behavior is marginalizing, offensive, and all the other things people have said. But most of all, it's pathetic. Grow up, you sad little girls.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
"but really a general example of a base behavior among groups of young people, that is empowered by a system that allows these behaviors to flourish."
I would say this is an example of base behavior, period, and not pin it on young people.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
I quite agree.
Me, too, with the addition to that last sentence of fostering eating disorders (in many social sororities) -- from my perspectives as both a university student and having trained through a college student health center.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't even know if we had sororities at my alma mater, though I imagine my Faculty of Engineering probably acted in a manner similar to one.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
My school was only about 30% greek, but I think stuff like this was really common. My mother said they excluded one girl who was really smart, funny, and nice, because she wore green socks. Or maybe it was because she wore white socks. Whichever, it was the opposite of what was cool at the time. Another girl had a neck that looked dirty, and they all liked her but her dirty looking neck meant she "wasn't KD material".
Maybe national didn't think the girls were being snobby and exclusive enough, so they decided to undo the damage in one swoop. When I was at Auburn, the DZs had the reputation of being the sorority that would take anyone, i.e. the rejects of the other sororities. Obviously, that shows how icky greeks often are in the way they think of people. =)
While I was there, I came to know and love several sisters of various sororities, but I never thought that the greek system was very edifying. It seemed to foster low impulses, rather than inspire people to higher ones. I also think strict gender segregation is unfelicitous. Certainly the strict racial segregation that existed then (I hope no longer) was an unhappy thing. I'm really glad I decided to be independent.
Our group of friends was composed of a more diverse cross section of students, grad students, and professors than a typical greek club. We had males and females in roughly equal numbers. Membership was fluid and amorphous, and varied constantly according to people's preferences. I just think that was a healthier atmosphere, and I'm glad for it.
posted
I'm not sure if I am a big fan of the Greek system. It seems to be a breeding ground for the sort of attitudes I dislike. I remember at my own college the frat boys as a group were annoying to me, the sorority girls were perplexing. Individually, they were not so bad, but lumped together in a culture of exclustivity, (sp) heavy drinking, partying even on the weekdays and khakis with pastel colours they were scary.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I really am bothered that this wasn't in today's Indianapolis Star.
this actually happened in december... it was covered in the campus paper in late jan [when word got out]. i dont know how NYT got the story
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd like to point out that a lot of people are referencing behaviors of frats and sororities that indicate their requirements for admission are exclusive, e.g. Tatiana's post:
quote:My school was only about 30% greek, but I think stuff like this was really common. My mother said they excluded one girl who was really smart, funny, and nice, because she wore green socks. Or maybe it was because she wore white socks. Whichever, it was the opposite of what was cool at the time. Another girl had a neck that looked dirty, and they all liked her but her dirty looking neck meant she "wasn't KD material".
Maybe national didn't think the girls were being snobby and exclusive enough, so they decided to undo the damage in one swoop. When I was at Auburn, the DZs had the reputation of being the sorority that would take anyone, i.e. the rejects of the other sororities. Obviously, that shows how icky greeks often are in the way they think of people. =)
I'd like to point out that being discriminating in who you offer bids to and who you ultimately allow to cross is completely different than what the sorority in the article did: allowed 23 girls to become members of their society, some for years, even allowing them to take positions of power (one girl was chapter president), then abruptly decided to change the rules, taking membership away.
It's the difference between looking at potential adoption parents and saying "no, sorry, you don't meet our requirements" and approving parents for adoption but then, three years later, saying "no, wait, we're changing the rules, you can't have this child anymore. But we're sorry, and here's $300 to compensate."
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm ambivalent towards the Greek system. At best, it's a way of making little communities that strengthen and help the individual cope with bigger issues. At worst, it's a scheme cooked up by men to deliver booze and sexually available women. Sometimes the two goals are combined, helping the individual cope by providing booze and sexually available women.
As much as I like women, I'm not big into booze, and I was always suspicious about the lines on which brotherhood were drawn. I can't place it exactly, but I'm uncomfortable the Greek system, as if the kids were drawing pride from someplace they shouldn't be proud of.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
In the older days of fraternities, the brotherhood(or sisterhood) helped after college probably more than during college, providing a network of business contacts.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My personal experience was this: my friends from freshmen year joined fraternities and got new friends. They didn't have time to hang out with me because they had to be doing something with their "bros". My "best" friend is the president of his fraternity now, and we never hang out because he's always doing fraternity functions--and I'm not invited.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
My university has sorities and fraternities but they are hardly on anyone's radar. I like it that way.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sororities and fraternities are weird - and stories like this just make them sound even weirder. I'm glad they don't exist here.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I also imagine the top ranks of a national fraternal organization are (a) a full-time job (b) not well paid.
Not so. Many of the top jobs in the national organization are not full time. And the ones that are, are pretty well paid. What actually turned me very strongly away from the fraternity(on a national level) was my experience with becoming involved with the fraternity on a national level. To sum up, the fraternity wanted the national organization run like a business. They compared the organization to a business every chance they got and were making major efforts to restructure at the chapter level with those new goals in mind(a successful business). Many others who got involved were also soured to the national organization as well.
Launchywiggin, sorry you've had such a bad experience with your friend and the greek system in general. At my school non-fraternity members as well as brothers from other fraternities were all welcome at most events. I'd say people who didn't pledge fraternities got the better deal at my school, they got to party for free all four years of college without any of the responsibility/commitment of actually being in a fraternity. Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
But I understand what LaunchyWiggin said, too. A significant number of my friends joined a fraternity and I suddenly found myself unable to socialize as much with them. Now we're out of college, and all enjoying the lack of socialization that having a full time job entails. Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
something that a lot of people forget [in the haze of frat parties etc] is the enormous amount of community service work fraternities and sororities do nation-wide.
in our college alone, hundreds of thousands of dollars are raised by the greek system every year in aid of cancer & AIDS research. my fraternity offered merit scholarships to local high school students, and offered volunteers to the local senior center, the homeless shelter and events organized by other houses.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: something that a lot of people forget [in the haze of frat parties etc] is the enormous amount of community service work fraternities and sororities do nation-wide.
in our college alone, hundreds of thousands of dollars are raised by the greek system every year in aid of cancer & AIDS research. my fraternity offered merit scholarships to local high school students, and offered volunteers to the local senior center, the homeless shelter and events organized by other houses.
For every greek organization I've encountered that does excellent charity work, I've encountered one that does enough to not have their charter revoked, or uses charity as a means of benefiting themselves.
For example, I know of two (different) frat chapters who did an epic amount of fundraising - and donated all of it to their local police department, ensuring that the ridiculously loud, drug-permeated, minor-filled parties at their off-campus housing went undisturbed.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've never understood the Greek thing. My only experience of similar societies was the local Bruderschaft (Brotherhood) at the Uni I went to in Germany for a year. They wore sashes and little hats, sported moustaches and were regarded as highly dodgey by 99% of the student body.
Sounds like these guys have shot themselves in the foot though. I wonder how it will effect theit future at that particular college?
In my UK University, the "campus" was loosely divided by the various Student Union societies. I was in the Mountianeering Society so I had ready access to the climbing wall and weekends away in the mountains. It never got me a job though, nor yet a network of business contacts. I do have some wonderful friends though!
Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Remember these girls were expelled from the house, not the sorority. They were changed from a "student" status which allowed them to live in the house, to an "alumna" status. They were still members, but alumna are not allowed to live in the houses. That's acutally worse, in my opinion, because the whole purpose was then to get them out of the house because they didn't fit the correct physical type. It's like saying, "We do think that you play a role in or sorority, but we don't want people like you living in our houses."
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: For example, I know of two (different) frat chapters who did an epic amount of fundraising - and donated all of it to their local police department, ensuring that the ridiculously loud, drug-permeated, minor-filled parties at their off-campus housing went undisturbed.
IMO, the problem here is the police department, which is essentially taking bribes from the chapters.
Personally, I think underage drinking is perfectly fine. It happens in almost every highschool and college, and in most homes across the US. Most universities have their own police force, and they take care of "on-campus issues" for the most part.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That's possible, but my own experience with DU chapters is four to five years old, and seemed well established then. DU has always prided themselves (on a national level, at least) on not being the stereotypical party animal fraternity, highlighting their intellectual standards for brothers, as well as their policies against hazing, secret rituals, oaths, handshakes, etc.
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
), and obviously even fewer administrators would stand for it. They're far too busy getting drunk and laid.
