posted
Is this really what America has become? Do people need their junk food fix THAT bad?
This is horrifying. And extremely disturbing. I think this story should be all over the news. Maybe not all of America is apathetic.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Poor food usually equals poor behavior. Boy, if this doesn't prove the connection, I don't know what would.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Only if you think that America has become a huge cluster of livid, unrepresentative samples of attention-grabbing shocking behaviors.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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My daughter also misbehaves a lot more when I let her eat crappy stuff.
I kind of thought sugar made kids hyperactive. You know, sudden rise of blood sugar, followed by sudden drop in blood sugar.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
People have been killing people for horrifingly inconsequential things ever since people got past the "inches from death by Nature" stage of our development.
People get killed for a pair of shoes, for five bucks, for looking at people cross-eyed, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and any number of horrifingly trivial reasons.
I'm not saying it's not horrifying, but I am saying it's not new. It's not something America has "become". -------
quote:Poor food usually equals poor behavior. Boy, if this doesn't prove the connection, I don't know what would.
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not-I don't mean that in a snarky way, but it seems to me that a quick glance at the numbers of Americans who, say, eat at fast-food restaurants regularly compared to the number of Americans who are murderers shows that the "proof" you're talking about is, well, pretty darn stupid.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Here is a summary (from 1996, but the question was considered fairly well settled then): Hyperactivity: is candy causal? (Critical Review in Food Science Nutrition).
quote:...Parents and teachers alike attribute excessive motor activity and other disruptive behaviors to candy consumption. However, anecdotal observations of this kind need to be tested scientifically before conclusions can be drawn, and criteria for interpreting diet behavior studies must be rigorous. ... Feingold theorized that food additives (artificial colors and flavors) and natural salicylates caused hyperactivity in children and elimination of these components would result in dramatic improvement in behavior. Numerous double-blind studies of the Feingold hypothesis have led to the rejection of the idea that this elimination diet has any benefit beyond the normal placebo effect. ... Twelve double-blind, placebo-controlled studies of sugar challenges failed to provide any evidence that sugar ingestion leads to untoward behavior in children with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder or in normal children. Likewise, none of the studies testing candy or chocolate found any negative effect of these foods on behavior.
quote:Trouble is, studies have failed to verify this supposed link. And there have been a lot of studies!
Perhaps if there was a massively evident correlation between felony convictions and obesity, the notion could be credible at least on the surface!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Perhaps if there was a massively evident correlation between felony convictions and obesity, the notion could be credible at least on the surface!
Such a correlation could also be explained by the logic that obese offenders would have more trouble staying out of reach of the long arm of the law. Posts: 993 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Not to return to the original topic, but if it was those little gold foil packets of chili sauce (really just spicy oil), I can totally understand wanting more. That's great stuff on practically everything.
I wouldn't harm another human being to get it, mind you, but I might be upset if I couldn't have as many as I thought I needed.
I put it on my Wendy's Double Cheeseburgers and it's wonderful.
Mind you, I usually wonder at why they hand out SO MANY of those packets when I only asked for one! I now specifically tell them "I only need one" so they don't dump 3 of them in there. Now I know why -- they have a limit of three, so they just hand them out in threes.
Hey Wendy's -- you should bottle that stuff and charge $5 for six ounces or something...
And you could market it as the sauce people would commit attempted murder in order to get. Of course, that assumes the manager survives his wounds.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I've heard a lot of anecdotal reports of child molesters and serial killers eating terrible diets. John Wayne Gacy was said to be addicted to candy, even up until his last few days of life.
I myself find that my mood, and, consequently, my interactions with other people, tend to be much more even, smooth, and calm when I'm eating a better diet.
I'm guessing there have to be at least a few mothers here who have seen the effects that a poor diet have on their child's behavior.
I honestly don't see why you folks don't have the courage of your convictions--feed yourselves and your kids nothing but white sugar for about 3 years.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
People, let's not turn this into "the steven show," okay? We know he's a flake; we don't need to drive the point home.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I love the elephant story. My friend told me about it the other night and it cracked me up. That is the first naturally run toll road. The animals have learned capitalism! Your lives, or at least your fruit, are no longer safe!
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: I honestly don't see why you folks don't have the courage of your convictions--feed yourselves and your kids nothing but white sugar for about 3 years.
Yeah! Also, if you think water isn't bad for you, perhaps you should try breathing it!
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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There are many reasons for eating a healthy diet, but concerns about criminality is probably not among them.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Proof isn't entirely the issue. People don't, and can't, live their lives entirely by science. Every time they try, you end up with eugenics/sterilization, or something similar. Did I really have to point that out? The opposite is also a giant sad mess--witness radical Islam. Somewhere in between is where we all survive.
It's not insane to look at Dr. Price's work and the diseases that modern people have and traditional groups DON'T, and make your diet accord with traditional diets as much as is practical. I might take it to an overly intense DEGREE. Might. However, I also am not on multiple medications. That says something. Lots of Hatrackers who trash me every time I bring all this up, in fact, ARE. Lots of my relatives are.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
steven, that probably says more about how you feel about medications than anything else.
---
The trouble with saying "but a lot of bad people eat a lot of candy" is that a lot of good people eat a lot of candy. There isn't a greater proportion of bad people eating candy than good people eating candy.
Haven't you seen college students and Mountain Dew, aka liquid candy?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I have nothing against medications used for acute issues. I think it's less-than-perfectly-wise to use them as a way to combat the effects of a modern diet. It's stupid to take a medication every day for the rest of your life when you can change your diet instead. Why? Because many of these medications make it onto the market without sufficient testing, like Celebrex. Traditional diets are proven. A drug that's maybe 10 years old is not as proven, or safe, on average. yeah, I see that I come across as crazy. I also see that my teeth are in great shape and I can run up 6 flights of stairs without breathing hard, whenever I feel like it, without having to do regular exercise to keep that ability. That was not true on a poorer-quality diet.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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steven, thalidomide and viagra and the negative effects of cholesterol medications versus everything else? I think you focus on the incidental without any focus on proportion. Yes, small amount = bad. But large amount = good. If you like, I can list some. I can be exhaustive, though, because that other list is so freakin' big.
---
I agree with you that a good diet is a cornerstone of a healthy life. I'd add to that regular cardiovascular exercise, sufficient and restful sleep, and a healthy social support system. Doesn't mean it is everything, but I will agree that these are a good place for everyone to start.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
steven: Since we are going on anecdotal evidence, my grandmother is quite possibly the nicest and most caring woman in the world I have ever met. She'd feel bad if a dog had to be put down for biting her.
She eats a diet that consists of TONS of steak, roast beef, potatoes, corn, peas.
That and TONS of icecream/anything sugar.
Its incredible but her pancreas works just fine, and she is incredibly frail, she does not gain any weight.
There are simply far more factors that go into a person's behavior then just food.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
For what it's worth, I am currently on a diet of primarily fresh vegetables, small amounts of high quality meats, some complex high-fiber carbs, and virtually no processed sugar. I think I had 1/2 a candy bar this weekend, but other than that, it's rye crispbread for me. *grin
---
Edited to add: Oh, and lots of beans and lentils. Black beans, chickpeas, navy beans, pintos, romanos, on and on and on with the beans. Good thing my body adjusted quickly. *prim
No, my husband and I went to a movie together at 11:30am and then walked through a harbortown, letting the warm breezes dance around us as the kids flew kites and the old folks sat in the sun. It was absolutely lovely, and we are looking for a house there now.
No face-punching for me. Rather, standing at the edge of the world overlooking the ocean, tasting the first ripe raspberry of the local season, and dreaming of days to come.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Rather, standing at the edge of the world overlooking the ocean, tasting the first ripe raspberry of the local season, and dreaming of days to come.
The truth comes out in the end.
In other news, I had a slice of pizza (chicken/bacon/mushroom), popcorn with cheddar topping and a Sprite for breakfast/lunch. Yesterday I had...four chocolate chip cookies, the entire day. I can already feel the violent urges rising up from the blackened depths of my malnourished soul.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Mind you, I don't argue that one feels better when one eats a healthy diet. For some people, at least, this does mean avoiding refined sugar. I recall quite vividly my overzealous support of the Snapple company during the first year of medical school.
Start classes at 7:30am with a strawberry tea Snapple. Delicious! So sweet! And buzzed on caffeine and sugar for about 1 1/2 hrs. Then I crashed -- groggy, tired, just wiped out. Another strawberry tea Snapple to the rescue. Zing, whizz, bang! Up and at 'em ... for about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs. Rinse and repeat throughout the day, every day. It was exhausting.
However, I'm not sure that observation can be readily extrapolated to the extent one might want to go with it. There is a world of difference between getting groggy at one's studies and being a serial rapist and killer.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
As an intimidating tactic, if I was a boxer or a pro wrestler in the WWF I'd pour a bag of white sugar down my gullet before every match, and periodically lick myself during the fight.
posted
"Welcome to..." ***BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!!!*** "Miami... Can I help you?"
BTW: If you ask for BBQ sauce at a Wendy's and are not ordering chicken nuggets, they will try to charge you $0.25 per packet.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I wonder why that man felt the need to shoot someone over something so trivial. Was he mentally disturbed? Did he just not see the manager as a human being? I'm glad that apparently the injuries weren't life-threatening, but the poor manager is probably pretty traumatized over the whole thing.
Also, I love the elephant story! That's pretty clever thinking.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Right? I like that nobody can do anything. They just let the elephant do what it wants, and try not to bother it too much. I hope the rest of the animals are paying attention, cause they could make a killing off of fruit taxes.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
My current obsession is healing clays. I eat about 2-4 oz. of clays a day. I have to say, the clays have done more for my teeth and my state of mind than any food has. They have also helped my skin too. I have had dry flaky skin most of my life, and the clays have really helped. Check out this page on healing clays.
Primal, I think the only anti-steven is laughter....I sure was laughing at some of these posts.
"I wonder why that man felt the need to shoot someone over something so trivial. Was he mentally disturbed? Did he just not see the manager as a human being? I'm glad that apparently the injuries weren't life-threatening, but the poor manager is probably pretty traumatized over the whole thing."
Kind of like a junkie, isn't it?
OK, I'll shut up. I know there's no direct, one-to-one correlation.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
As far as my diet goes...I'm really not as fanatical as I come across here. I am pretty much anti-processed foods, and haven't had anything containing sugar or flour in at least 6 months or more, but I eat cooked food on an almost-weekly basis. I also eat cold-pressed oils and, because I don't have easy access to fresh seafood, I often eat frozen shrimp, crabs, etc. although I greatly prefer fresh. None of those foods are, strictly speaking, completely unprocessed, but I currently am eating them. I do think my health would be a little better, if I ate more totally fresh.
I can introduce you to dozens of friends online who eat a Weston Price-inspired diet. Many of these people are degreed scientists, stable, productive members of society, and deeply interested in scientific proof for their diets. They run circles around me in discussions of scientific minutiae, sometimes. I can also introduce you to at least a couple dozen who eat a raw or mostly-raw Price=inspired diet.
I've pretty much given up on being able to present this diet well here. I'm not sure I'm willing to engage in serious, drawn-out discussion of it here. If you are curious about whether or not the people who eat this way are crazy, head on over to another group I frequent, the "native nutrition" yahoo group here . The archives are public, or, if you want to post questions, you can join the group--being a member of Yahoo groups is free. The ads are annoying, but you get used to them, or at least I have. Particularly look for posts by Chris Masterjohn, Paul Idol, and Mary Enig, there's a great search function. I'm also on there as well sometimes.
There are other message boards for people who eat this way, but that yahoo group is very busy, has archives going back several years,often has seriously substantive posts, and has some real heavy-hitters on there who can answer your questions in a non-steven way. I have considered the idea of inviting 1 or 2 of them here, but, you know, whatever. I leave that up to the group. If you say it's a good idea, I'll do it. I would suggest somebody read those archives first, to get an idea of who you'd like. But whatever.
I hope I've made it clear that I'm probably done discussing this here, unless I get some serious help with the task. I'm not sure my approach is productive, although I feel that I know the science well enough.
I don't want to bore anybody with all this.
If you're interested in human studies, Dr. Price did two small-scale ones with a couple dozen people in each. You can access them here, or I can summarize. Basically, he took people who had dozens of cavities in their teeth, changed their diet, and basically completely halted the formation of new cavities. In some cases, particularly in the children, the cavities filled in. In some cases, other improvements in health/behavior were apparent. Quite a few of the children were noticed to become much better students by their teachers. When he took them off his special diet, cavity formation started again. I'd say that's a good summary, check the link to see if you disagree.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
steven...just a bit of a clarification -- Price implemented dietary improvements on severely malnourished people and saw changes in their dental health (along with lots of other health improvements). That's not anything like changing the diet of the average "healthy" person.
Also, Price refers to improvement of the density of the teeth -- that doesn't mean that the cavities filled in, but that the living tissue inside the tooth was able to repair itself when the infection and vitamin deficiencies were reversed or treated.
Price also used case studies in his writing -- that's fine as far as it goes, but it obviously isn't a well controlled study with double blind assignment to treatment and control groups. For the people he talks about as case studies, the evidence appears to point to an effect of his special diet, but that doesn't prove that the diet is the right thing for every person or that it will mean that nobody gets cavities while on that diet. Extreme cases are just that -- extreme, abnormal, i.e., not the norm.
That's not to say that diet doesn't have an impact on dental health, of course it does. It just means that a treatment devised and proven under extreme cases isn't automatically going to have the same dramatic effect for everyone.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
"Also, Price refers to improvement of the density of the teeth -- that doesn't mean that the cavities filled in, but that the living tissue inside the tooth was able to repair itself when the infection and vitamin deficiencies were reversed or treated."
Price "counted cavities" in all the groups he visited. In many of the groups, the only "cavities" he found were ones that had filled in and repaired themselves. In some groups, he found no cavities at all, healed or open. He specifically says this at least 2 or 3 times at different points. In my first read-through, I didn't catch this. In other words, cavities can and do self-repair, on a good-enough diet.
" For the people he talks about as case studies, the evidence appears to point to an effect of his special diet, but that doesn't prove that the diet is the right thing for every person or that it will mean that nobody gets cavities while on that diet. "
Right...different groups that Dr. Price studied had widely-varying diets. Some ate no grains, some ate lots of them. Some ate almost no meat, some ate almost nothing except meat. Some ate lots of seafoods, some ate very little seafoods. Some had lots of raw dairy, some never ate dairy. You have to find what works for you. The guiding principles though, are
1. the best teeth/health/skeletons he found were in the groups that tended to emphasize seafoods, particularly shellfish and fish eggs. Some people are deathly allergic to shellfish, and they ARE bottom feeders, so that leaves fish eggs. IMHO. I eat lots of them, and have found that they really seem to help my teeth.
2. Organ meats, particularly liver, were highly prized in all groups. They usually ate it raw. Yeah, I know, it's disgusting. However, it worked. You have to be very careful about your organ sources, though. Conventionally-raised animals often do not have acceptable organs, IMO. They're too full of pesticides, etc.
3. Among those who tolerate raw dairy, it seems to be an excellent health food, to the degree that it comes from healthy animals. I have survived healthfully for weeks at a time on nothing but raw goat dairy. I can drink up to a gallon a day or more. Several of the groups Dr. Price studied could drink a gallon or more of milk a day per person. The ones that did had excellent teeth. These were healthy cows, though, eating very mineral-rich grass.
Price did find 2 groups that had no crooked teeth and no cavities. They both highly emphasized seafoods. He specifically mentions one of them, the Maori of New Zealand, who went from having the best teeth of any group on Earth to the worst, after the coming of the white man.
I would also like to note that healing clays have done more for my health than any single food. many of the groups Dr. Price studied used healing clays on a daily basis, and several animal species eat them as a regular part of their diet, as a mineral supplement and to bind toxins in their foods. Termite mound clay is still sold in Africa today as a prenatal supplement for pregnant women, as it has been for hundreds of years.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I must confess that when I read the article, one of the first things that came to mind was how much it would bite to have to tell the story of how you got shot.
"You got shot?" "Yeah." "Wow! Were you walking down the street? Was it a fight? Were you protecting your home? Your spouse?" "Um, no. I was protecting the chili sauce of the Wendy's I was working at."
It's awful it happened. I'm glad the victim's injury wasn't life threatening. But I fear I'd still be thinking, "Jeez, why didn't I just let the idiot have the chili sauce?"
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I would insist that my name tag get some special chevron to indicate that I had bravely defended the sauce from the foe.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by steven: As far as my diet goes...I'm really not as fanatical as I come across here. I am pretty much anti-processed foods, and haven't had anything containing sugar or flour in at least 6 months or more, but I eat cooked food on an almost-weekly basis. I also eat cold-pressed oils and, because I don't have easy access to fresh seafood, I often eat frozen shrimp, crabs, etc. although I greatly prefer fresh. None of those foods are, strictly speaking, completely unprocessed, but I currently am eating them. I do think my health would be a little better, if I ate more totally fresh.
I can introduce you to dozens of friends online who eat a Weston Price-inspired diet. Many of these people are degreed scientists, stable, productive members of society, and deeply interested in scientific proof for their diets. They run circles around me in discussions of scientific minutiae, sometimes. I can also introduce you to at least a couple dozen who eat a raw or mostly-raw Price=inspired diet.
I've pretty much given up on being able to present this diet well here. I'm not sure I'm willing to engage in serious, drawn-out discussion of it here. If you are curious about whether or not the people who eat this way are crazy, head on over to another group I frequent, the "native nutrition" yahoo group here . The archives are public, or, if you want to post questions, you can join the group--being a member of Yahoo groups is free. The ads are annoying, but you get used to them, or at least I have. Particularly look for posts by Chris Masterjohn, Paul Idol, and Mary Enig, there's a great search function. I'm also on there as well sometimes.
There are other message boards for people who eat this way, but that yahoo group is very busy, has archives going back several years,often has seriously substantive posts, and has some real heavy-hitters on there who can answer your questions in a non-steven way. I have considered the idea of inviting 1 or 2 of them here, but, you know, whatever. I leave that up to the group. If you say it's a good idea, I'll do it. I would suggest somebody read those archives first, to get an idea of who you'd like. But whatever.
I hope I've made it clear that I'm probably done discussing this here, unless I get some serious help with the task. I'm not sure my approach is productive, although I feel that I know the science well enough.
I don't want to bore anybody with all this.
If you're interested in human studies, Dr. Price did two small-scale ones with a couple dozen people in each. You can access them here, or I can summarize. Basically, he took people who had dozens of cavities in their teeth, changed their diet, and basically completely halted the formation of new cavities. In some cases, particularly in the children, the cavities filled in. In some cases, other improvements in health/behavior were apparent. Quite a few of the children were noticed to become much better students by their teachers. When he took them off his special diet, cavity formation started again. I'd say that's a good summary, check the link to see if you disagree.
I will re-post your last, horribly failed attempt at defending Price's work tomorrow so we can all rehash it a 7th time (or so).
That way you can get all the attention you desire....yet again. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
This isn't an attack, but I'm pretty sure you told me that you were done discussing your diet on Hatrack. What made you change your mind? Just curious.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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