posted
Hmmm... I'm guessing he's using very obscure reasoning to come up with those numbers. The Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences doesn't have any sequences starting like that, so it is almost definitely a very contrived example.
posted
I'd say it's seven hundred seventy-seven. Saying "and" is technically incorrect; "and" is reserved for fractions and decimals.
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posted
You'd say "seven hundred seventy seven and 50/100" on a check. I'm not sure you'd say it in casual conversation though.
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posted
Icky -- you say that it's technically incorrect. Technically incorrect in what setting?
Because in the vast majority of numerical situations I deal with, the technically correct way of writing it is "777".
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posted
I'm not talking about how to write it at all. I'm talking about how to read the number aloud.
EDIT TO CLARIFY: Many people would read the number 115 as "one hundred and fifteen." Technically, that ought to be "one hundred fifteen."
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posted
It's true that you aren't supposed to say "and" (or write it), but I'm guessing it got to be habitual with people because of the more (for lack of a better word) "poetic" flow. If you say the number out loud without the "and", doesn't it sound less rhythmic?
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm not talking about how to write it at all. I'm talking about how to read the number aloud.
EDIT TO CLARIFY: Many people would read the number 115 as "one hundred and fifteen." Technically, that ought to be "one hundred fifteen."
In what setting are you saying that it is technically incorrect? Are you saying that it's incorrect English?
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posted
I was also taught (in math class, not English class) that "and" is how you pronounce a decimal point. And that using it between other digits is wrong.
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posted
I don't know how to answer your question, Porter--especially since the counterexample you gave did not address this issue.
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posted
I'm guessing from the posts so far that the sequence has something to do with placing a decimal point?
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posted
Icky -- are you saying that putting the word "and" in there is incorrect/improper English, along the same vein as using the word aint or double negatives?
To me, it seems much more like pronunciation variations, such as we see with the word tomato.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: I was also taught (in math class, not English class) that "and" is how you pronounce a decimal point. And that using it between other digits is wrong.
I learned to say the decimal place as "point". Do you say that standard body temperature is "ninety eight and six tenths", or do you say "ninety eight point six"?
posted
In a math or engineering class I would say ninety-eight and six tenths of a degree, Farenheit.
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posted
In my math class the teacher specifically just made it a point to mark our answers incorrect if we use the word, "and" between digits unless talking about a following fraction or decimal. We are supposed to use hyphens.
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posted
The reason for not using "and" in the middle of an integer is so that "one hundred and six tenths" clearly means 100 + 6/10, and is not confused with 106/10.
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posted
I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: In my math class the teacher specifically just made it a point to mark our answers incorrect if we use the word, "and" between digits unless talking about a following fraction or decimal. We are supposed to use hyphens.
(a) How were you writing numbers out as words in a math class?
(b) Your teacher was a pedant. And I don't mean that in a good way (if there is a good way).
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.
Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:
"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."
Eleven comes before 17.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: "How were you writing numbers out as words in a math class?"
Didn't you ever have to do that?
I'm 44. If I did, I have no memory of it. Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work.
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posted
"Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work."
I didn't do it, but I remember not doing it.
edit: I learned it before debit cards were common. Maybe they were concerned about our check-writing skills.
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posted
"Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work."
This was my problem as well - in high school anyway. I'm kicking myself now, of course. I was being just as ignorant as The Followers.
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posted
I'm not kicking myself at all. A good chunk of school was a total waste.
My daughter goes to a private school where kids are taught basically on their own level. She's in 2nd grade, and in this school, they mix classes, so that 1st and 2nd are together, 3rd and 4th are together, 5th and 6th are together, and 7th and 8th are together. Not for reasons of size; there are two 1st/2nd grade classes this year.
One of the effects of this mixing is that kids mentor other kids, because you're always a year older or a year younger than about half the class. Another is that no one expects everyone in the class to be doing the same thing. They have some basic things that everyone does, but for the most part, it's individualized.
The other day, we were talking to my sister in law. My nephew is freakishly smart, and we happened to see some of his schoolwork, which was normal 1st grade stuff. Havah asked my sister in law if my nephew wasn't bored out of his mind. Tova got confused and asked, "Why would he be bored?" It simply doesn't occur to her that a school might force people to do work that's clearly beneath them. That's no challenge, and teaches nothing.
But "no challenge and teaches nothing" is like a staple of most schools. Certainly the ones I went to.
My senior year in high school, I was taking Hebrew (required every year, since it was a Jewish school). About 80% or more of the homework was writing out conjugations. Gag me.
One day, the teacher, Mrs. Bass, told me to stay after the bell had rung. She said, "You are getting A's on all the tests. But I can't give you an A in the class, because you aren't turning in any homework."
It was my senior year, so I did what I'd been wanting to do for years. I said, "Look, Mrs. Bass, I understand that you have to teach to the lowest common denominator. But you know that I know the material, and I know that I know the material, and I'm simply not going to waste my time with busy work. If you have to give me a B, give me a B."
I did my best to say it earnestly, and not smarmily, which may account for the fact that I wound up with an A- in the class, but if I'm kicking myself at all, it's for not having had the guts to do that a lot earlier.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.
Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:
"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."
Eleven comes before 17.
Wouldn't sev-en make more sense than ze-ro?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Your teacher was a pedant. And I don't mean that in a good way (if there is a good way).
He isn't being pedantic, he's being precise. In mathematics, as in any other field, you have nomenclature designed to impart information with maximum accuracy and minimum confusion. In a math class, when you are verbally reporting an answer, the distinction between "106/10" and "100 + 6/10" (to borrow dkw's example) is highly relevant. It saves everyone a lot of wasted time if a set of rules for describing those numbers is defined in advance, and it becomes instantly useless if someone can just arbitrarily choose to opt out of the agreed-upon nomenclature.
Would you also deride a carpenter as "pedantic" for insisting that his apprentice not use the word "hammer" to describe a mallet, even though many people do just that in colloquial settings?
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posted
IIRC, there may be a difference between the American usage of "and" and the British usage of "and" in spoken numbers. That is, I think the Brits may actually say (in their standardized numeric vocabulary) "one hundred and forty-two" for "142," whereas I (an American) was always taught that by US standard nomenclature, this would refer to "100.42" instead, with the "and" indicating the insertion of a decimal point.
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.
Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:
"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."
posted
If I heard someone say "one hundred and forty two", the last thing I would ever think of is 100.42. I would first think of 142, and secondly of 100 + 42. But 100.42 is either "one hundred point 42" or "one hundred and forty two one hundredths".
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posted
Because Ze-ro is a neutral number, not negative or positive. All the other numbers are positive, making it much more sense to have it be sev-en.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I heard someone say "one hundred and forty two", the last thing I would ever think of is 100.42. I would first think of 142, and secondly of 100 + 42. But 100.42 is either "one hundred point 42" or "one hundred and forty two one hundredths".
I don't think that is consistent with the standardized style guidelines for the US, though. It doesn't mean you wouldn't be understood, just that is isn't consistent with the standardized style guidelines.
I think that is what Icarus was indicating when he said "technically incorrect."
[edited to add referent]
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I've never seen that rule in a style guide.
Are you saying that you haven't seen the topic discussed in a style guide, or that you saw the topic discussed and the rule was different?
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